"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Cetra]

[And for clarification on my end, I'm stating Beerus is the reason history is reorganized at all. Future Trunks doesn't have the power to do so. He may only spark Beerus to end matters. We were in the middle of repetition thus the audience witnesses similar events. This "safety timeline" would be synonymous with Goku's era. I often chart how time is fluid and that it can be viewed as locations instead. The pathway isn't linear and the "areas" are subject to be affected.

No, no. I am not talking about the splitting part when talking about Trunks. I am just mentioning Trunks because is a relevant factor for the cycle. And by "safety timeline" I mean Black's as it guaranteed his existence and it only was possible because of the bootstrap.

Also I have a problem with the fact that some people actually think "the Goku era" just is talking about two actually totally similiar timelines that at one point go different ways. But when I say "split" then i am talking about an actual split of something that is literally one before, in this case the Goku timeline. Something cannot split if it is not one. No matter if it is "identical". Maybe you did not mean that though.

It's not the same at all. You're basically implicating that the ring is somehow bending reality (even before Zamasu gets it) in order to create a chain of events where he escapes from Beerus' investigation and gets the time ring. That's very different and a large expansion from the ability mentioned in the anime, which just says that even if due to time traveling he's killed before getting the ring, he'll continue existing due to the ring itself. The official timeline also gives no reason for the different events, just says that they split based on Beerus killing him. It doesn't explain how or why he escapes in that timeline where he isn't killed. This is all your conjecture which gives an ability to the time ring that's not even suggested in the official material we have.

Yes, yes it is the same. Saying it isn't is you ignoring that the chart says time split when Beerus destroys Zamasu. And it is not the ring of present Zamasu that split the timeline, who as you mentioned does not have the ring right now, but Black's time ring. It has nothing to do with a large expansion. Beerus had the power to overwrite history but it did not happen because within the loop Black already existed and the time ring retroactively had priority over Beerus guaranteeing Black in the first place. Really everything that I am telling you is just the chart + what the ring's protection means. You saying "oh no that is not said" is equal to claiming the time ring was explained unequivocally in the anime which it never was. Let me not even start which kind of problems the way you understood it brings with it, one of them being the mere fact that it would no longer guarantee Black, just like it was intended. That you do not want to combine chart + anime is really your problem, not mine.

[Nejishiki]

No, no. I am not talking about the splitting part when talking about Trunks. I am just mentioning Trunks because is a relevant factor for the cycle. And by "safety timeline" I mean Black's as it guaranteed his existence and it only was possible because of the bootstrap.

Also I have a problem with the fact that some people actually think "the Goku era" just is talking about two actually totally similiar timelines that at one point go different ways. But when I say "split" then i am talking about an actual split of something that is literally one before, in this case the Goku timeline. Something cannot split if it is not one. No matter if it is "identical". Maybe you did not mean that though.

I didn't mean that, no. I'm only elaborating that Goku and Goku Black share the same history and that Future Trunks landed before the other Zamasu could become Goku Black yet again. I'm not advocating for separate timelines, but continuous usage of the same two eras.

[Draconic]

Probably. I guess that is the confusing stuff Toriyama was talking about, not the Goku vs Zamasu thing which is Toei's stuff most likely.

How do you think "a history is erased by a bootstrap being broken" when the bootstrap cannot suddenly bring in Beerus if he has never been there before? That is why there never was a "history that was erased from a third timeline" but instead this third timeline just resulting from Beerus within the cycle. The chart was very clear with saying "a split into 2 timelines" not "oh, btw. one overwrote the other one".

The original timeline had Trunks come back in time, which caused Goku to fight Zamasu, which lead to the creation of Black. Black travelled from this timeline to Trunks' one using the Time Ring, then when Trunks came back everything went the same way, until Beerus interfered and broke the loop, splitting the timeline in two, the one Black came from and the one we are following. But the timeline didn't just split, the original one was erased as well and the only thing keeping Black from being erased too is the Time Ring.

[Basako]

A fight against Kibito who is weaker than base Buu arc Gohan is not interesting at all. The planet Babari and GodTube stuff happens in the anime too. Those are used to explain Zamasu's doubts about mortals. But going from that to committing genocide and deicide is a loooong way, which being humiliated in a fight with Goku gives more credence to.

That's your opinion, not a fact. The fight against Kibito was interesting to me, showed that Zamasu had to be stopped and I'm saturated of Goku's fights, so the manga was more interesting than the anime to me. This is my opinion, of course. I know same stuff like the Babari and Godtube happens in the anime too, never said the opposite. I'm just defending how Zamasu's characterization is correct in the manga too. Zamasu has already the seed of hatred towards humans, knowing about Goku grows it and he thinks he does not deserve that powerfull body, so he will steal it from him. All fine to me and the paradox problem solved.

Beerus kills Zamasu just because Trunks came back in time, which happens because Black attacks Trunks' future.

That's it, there is no paradox there. The problem is not Beerus killing Zamasu because Trunks came, in fact, that must happen as a cause effect. The problem is Zamasu learning about Goku and the dragon balls because Trunks came, like in the anime. There was a version of the timeline where Trunks didn't come, where Zamasu learned about Goku and wasn't killed by Beerus. It's not the one we are seeing in the manga, we have to wait for Black to explain all that.

[Cetra]

The original timeline had Trunks come back in time, which caused Goku to fight Zamasu, which lead to the creation of Black. Black travelled from this timeline to Trunks' one using the Time Ring, then when Trunks came back everything went the same way, until Beerus interfered and broke the loop, splitting the timeline in two, the one Black came from and the one we are following. But the timeline didn't just split, the original one was erased as well and the only thing keeping Black from being erased too is the Time Ring.

That is a) never said in the chart to be this way and b) Beerus cannot interfere within a bootstrap. Either he already is involved in it or he isn't. His "I have power over time" stuff only works the moment he kills a god (who is not protected). Your explanation would require a break of the cycle before that point already. Which is one of the reasons why I am always talking about how I explain it.

That's it, there is no paradox there. The problem is not Beerus killing Zamasu because Trunks came, in fact, that must happen as a cause effect. The problem is Zamasu learning about Goku and the dragon balls because Trunks came, like in the anime. There was a version of the timeline where Trunks didn't come, where Zamasu learned about Goku and wasn't killed by Beerus. It's not the one we are seeing in the manga, we have to wait for Black to explain all that.

That is still a bootstrap. Black leads to Trunks who leads to Black who leads to Trunks who leads to Black ... That is already the bootstrap. The Goku fight is just one element of it. It does not need to be there to be a boostrap. That there was a version where Trunks did not come is just not true. At least not in the anime. I have yet to fully read the manga.

[Legion]

[Basako]

That is still a bootstrap. Black leads to Trunks who leads to Black who leads to Trunks who leads to Black ... That is already the bootstrap. The Goku fight is just one element of it. It does not need to be there to be a boostrap. That there was a version where Trunks did not come is not a fact. That is the point. Nowhere was this ever stated.

No, it's not, Black's origin happens without Trunks. Zamasu knows about Goku and the dragon balls (without Trunks being there), he steals his body, goes to Trunks's timeline, fights with Trunks and Trunks escapes to Goku's timeline. We already know there are two versions, one Zamasu killing Gowasu and another Beerus preventing it and killing Zamasu, so it's not theoretical. You just have to fix the pieces with Trunks or without him. But, as I said first, Beerus killing Zamasu is a crucial event to this matter and we have to see yet how it's handled in the manga.

[Cetra]

No it's not, Black's origin happens without Trunks.

Except it doesn't. The chart clearly shows that it is not like this and that it is one timeline that splits into two pieces way after Trunks. And as mentioned before, I cannot fully speak for the manga as I have yet to fully read it. But from what I have seen it is also not said that there was a time where Trunks didn't arrive in the manga.

[Neon Z]

Yes, yes it is the same. Saying it isn't is you ignoring that the chart says time split when Beerus destroys Zamasu.

Nah, the chart is exactly the problem. With the anime by itself, the writer's intentions were vague enough they could be interpreted in a way different from their intended one (no Trunks or Black in Zamasu's original timeline which leads to Zamasu's plan succeeding). The chart just makes their senseless plot obvious and undeniable.

And it is not the ring of present Zamasu that split the timeline, who as you mentioned does not have the ring right now, but Black's time ring.

Correct.

It has nothing to do with a large expansion. Beerus had the power to overwrite history but it did not happen because within the loop Black already existed and the time ring retroactively had priority over Beerus guaranteeing Black in the first place.

I don't disagree with this either.

Really everything that I am telling you is just the chart + what the ring's protection means. You saying "oh no that is not said" is equal to claiming the time ring was explained unequivocally in the anime which it never was. Let me not even start which kind of problems the way you understood it brings with it, one of them being the mere fact that it would no longer guarantee Black, just like it was intended. That you do not want to combine chart + anime is really your problem, not mine.

I am combining both and the actual problem starts from there. The way the anime is set up, there's no logical way for Black timeline Zamasu to get the ring in the first place. How do we go from Goku and Beerus investigating Black, finding out that Zamasu is connected to Black and is going to kill Gowasu, seeing him kill Gowasu and reversing time to stop him... and then Zamasu still kills him and gets out of there with the Time Ring? We don't know since the chart doesn't answer. And it doesn't explain that because the anime's loop is senseless. There's no sequence of events where Zamasu can get out with the ring at that point, with or without Beerus using his ability to erase him from the timeline.

The "safety" timeline, as you call it, exists as Goku Black's past due to the Time Ring, I'm not denying that. What I'm saying is that the sequence of events that leads to Zamasu getting away in his timeline makes no sense if the split only happens by the time Beerus kills him in the timeline we follow.

[Basako]

Except it doesn't. The chart clearly shows that it is not like this. And as mentioned before, I cannot fully speak for the manga as I have yet to fully read it.

For now, in the manga, Black's origin happens without any involvement of Trunks, that's a fact. We are talking about the manga here, look the title, I'm sure the chart had its own post.

[ekrolo2]

No it's not, Black's origin happens without Trunks.

Except it doesn't. The chart clearly shows that it is not like this. And as mentioned before, I cannot fully speak for the manga as I have yet to fully read it. But from what I have seen it is also not said that there was a time where Trunks didn't arrive in the manga.

I don't see why you reference the chart at all, its a load of nonsense. The split happens when Beerus kills Zamasu yet this should just result in two timelines where Zamasu is dead, not one where Beerus doesn't kill him and one where he does. The act of successfully killing Zamasu is what causes the split, not Beerus preventing the assassination. Black can't exist period in either one as he'd be dead in both of them.

[Cetra]

I don't see why you reference the chart at all, its a load of nonsense. The split happens when Beerus kills Zamasu yet this should just result in two timelines where Zamasu is dead, not one where Beerus doesn't kill him and one where he does. The act of successfully killing Zamasu is what causes the split, not Beerus preventing the assassination. Black can't exist period in either one as he'd be dead in both of them.

Probably because it is official and has more value for the franchise than any explanation that you ever want to give, no matter if you want to ignore it or not. Also I very often now have explained the split, if we talk about Beerus or Zamasu here is totally irrelevant is the point is that Black's existence simply was supposed to be guaranteed and not stoppable and that the split happened around that time.

[ekrolo2]

Probably because it is official and has more value for the franchise than any explanation that you ever want to give, no matter if you want to ignore it or not. Also I very often now have explained the split, if we talk about Beerus or Zamasu here is totally irrelevant is the point is that Black's existence simply was supposed to be guaranteed and not stoppable.

And the official explanation is a load of crap that makes no sense, the show itself doesn't support it and neither does the manga, it might as well be some producers headcanon. Its the equivalent of the Daizenshuu trying its damnedest to convince you that Goku is Super Saiyan 2 when he fights Kid Boo even though everything in the actual story of the manga verbally and physically contradicts this.

The anime and the manga have a loop, Toei's random chart has a split that makes no sense in the context of the series, ergo, I'm gonna go with what the actual material says.

[Nejishiki]

I don't see why you reference the chart at all, its a load of nonsense. The split happens when Beerus kills Zamasu yet this should just result in two timelines where Zamasu is dead, not one where Beerus doesn't kill him and one where he does. The act of successfully killing Zamasu is what causes the split, not Beerus preventing the assassination. Black can't exist period in either one as he'd be dead in both of them.

A timeline where Beerus doesn't kill Zamasu for whatever reason doesn't exist. The heart of the matter is that Beerus killing him at all is why the "Goku Black Loop" ceases to be. The era where Zamasu dies and Goku Black survives are one and the same. What's cycled is Dragon Ball Super, the series, and Future Trunks' world, not other periods of time. They aren't created as explained by Future Trunks' method of travel and Whis' method of reversal. That works without the chart being referenced at all and subscribing to character statements.

[Cetra]

And the official explanation is a load of crap that makes no sense, the show itself doesn't support it and neither does the manga, it might as well be some producers headcanon.

The show only "doesn't support it" because you have a very clear wish of what certain lines are supposed to mean when in reality they never were fully explained and therefore just provided an ambigious element that is easily combined with the rest. If you want to go with "just the lines that you want" feel free to to so. I cannot leave out anything. I have to take the entirety of the anime plus the chart and clearly consider what is ambigious, what is unequivocal and what fits what.

A timeline where Beerus doesn't kill Zamasu for whatever reason doesn't exist. The heart of the matter is that Beerus killing him at all is why the "Goku Black Loop" ceases to be. The era where Zamasu dies and Goku Black survives are one and the same. What's cycled is Dragon Ball Super, the series, and Future Trunks' world, not other periods of time. They aren't created as explained by Future Trunks' method of travel and Whis' method of reversal. That works without the chart being referenced at all and subscribing to character statements.

Ah, and here we are with your explanation part again where we differentiate. You talk about ceasing to be. I don't. That would not be equal to a split.

[Nejishiki]

There's so many words that I can use! It's not a literal ceasing, in any case. It refers to breaking the creation of Goku Black alone. The phrasing I used, as interpreted by you, suggests none of these events transpired when I'm holding on to them all happening. I think you're gathering that I'm saying a timeline was erased. I'm not. New timelines weren't created as only existing ones were tampered with.

[Cetra]

There's so many words that I can use! It's not a literal ceasing, in any case. It refers to breaking the creation of Goku Black alone. The phrasing I used, as interpreted by you, suggests none of these events transpired when I'm holding on to them all happening. I think you're gathering that I'm saying a timeline was erased. I'm not. New timelines weren't created as only existing ones were tampered with.

Myeeh ... that would not be all that different for me. I sent you a PM though.

EDIT@ekrolo: Do whatever you want. I will surely not let out half of what is published to just get an answer that is way more inconsistent than the answer we get when taking all information.

[ekrolo2]

And the official explanation is a load of crap that makes no sense, the show itself doesn't support it and neither does the manga, it might as well be some producers headcanon.

The show only "doesn't support it" because you have a very clear wish of what certain lines are supposed to mean when in reality they never were fully explained and therefore just provided an ambigious element that is easily combined with the rest. If you want to go with "just the lines that you want" feel free to to so. I cannot leave out anything. I have to take the entirety of the anime plus the chart and clearly consider what is ambigious, what is unequivocal and what fits what.

No, it doesn't support it by basically explaining it in the show: Goku asks Black how is he still alive when Beerus just killed him, Black replies by saying the Time Ring protects him from anything done in his past.

Its the equivalent of you being sent in time from the 1940s to the 1920s to kill Hitler, accomplishing your mission then returning to the present and discovering Hitler is still alive because a McGuffin is keeping history from correcting itself.

The split only creates two timelines where Zamasu can't become Black: the act of Zamasu's death is what causes the split meaning he's dead no matter what. If Whis' rewind split the timelines, that would make more sense as there is an actual version of history where Zamasu succeeds in killing Gowasu and another where they intervene after the rewind. The chart is nonsense.

[phattangent]

A new poster will be in some magazine from Toyo tomorrow here's a sneak at his Rosé Black! [spoiler][/spoiler]

Look at the detail of the CC car in that poster! Magnificent! If I had to pick one thing about Toyotarō's style that I like the most, it's that he nails the backgrounds and ancillary artistic elements just like Toriyama.

[PsionicWarrior]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Damn that looks absolutely stunning!!

if only the anime could feel like that lol