Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:40 pm

Cipher wrote: Toei was notorious for their lack of coordination early in the series (find Super's explanation for the Pilaf gang's youth). It's entirely possible they adapted the movie arcs without realizing Toriyama was writing the new material differently, leading to oddities in some of the filler episodes.

What really locked that reading in for me was Toyotaro's consistent approach that characters weren't substantially stronger outside of their god forms, and Trunks sparring more or less evenly with Goku's corresponding forms, while still being shocked by their godly power once he feels it. That also keeps Zamasu around an original-run Super Saiyan 2, which is still prodigal for a Kaioshin (remember, that level of power put the cast at the very top of the universe outside Beerus and Boo during the Boo arc), but not so strong that Beerus could have jumped over there for a challenge if he was truly impressed by Super Saiyan God.

Retroactively applying that approach to the Universe 6 arc -- the part of it Toriyama actually wrote -- makes more sense of it as well. I suspect the change was due to one or the other party between Toei and Toriyama wanting to have weaker forms available to Goku and Vegeta to add some visual flair, and the lack of consistency was due to Toei not getting the memo/really noticing Toriyama's changed approach. Which Toyotaro, as a single-author and super-fan, did, and adapted to.
Toriyama never cared about power levels and it makes no sense for Toriyama to suddenly scale Goku and Vegeta down after he made a big show of how powerful Goku's base form was in Reserrection 'F'.

Toyotaro is a none factor because he's telling his story of Toriyama's outline and he has changed more things from the movies Toriyama wrote compared to the anime. So I don't see how he's more in the right based on nothing but trying to guess what's in Toriyama's barebone outline.

And those breather episodes were written after the U6 tournament.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:55 pm

So as in the manga the Saiyans didn't have absorbed the power of God that would make them uber strong in Base, we could say that the skipped RoF arc had Goku and Vegeta using SSJB straight against Freeza? :think:
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:55 pm

Since the arc is know over I wanted to talk about Fused Zamasu's power and forms, if this has been done already let me know.

Ok so starting with Supreme God Zamasu. His first form seems to be a bit of an inconsistent oddity, at first he clearly outmatches the heroes and dose not seem to be taken the fight to seriously. All their attempts at attacking him personally fail and ha's able to effortlessly overpower both Goku and Vegeta at once. However by the time we get to the beam struggles he's clearly having trouble, he's become angry and is clearly trying to push their attacks back but cannot. This really bugged me first time around but from what we know now is seems to be that this was the point were his body was starting to become unstable, as a result he could not properly control his power. As it stand I have no way of guessing how this Zamasu would hold up against Vegito but with his unstable power is likely he'd still get his ass kicked.

Deformed Zamasu is another oddity (lets just say that everything about this fusion is odd) at first this seems to be his body simply breaking down due to instability but then it becomes something else entirely. To full achieve the form he doesn't just power up he calls down what he calls the Light of Heaven. I can't help but be reminded of Black's earlier reality affecting power re-watching this scene, is is possible that Zamasu is actually drawing power from the fabric reality itself? I have no idea why he gets that awesome new arm. My best guess is that Zamasu's body is decaying and regenerating rapidly due to his partial immortality and and the arm is some form of mutation or deformity caused by the rapid lose and regeneration of cells combined with Black super zenkai abilitie. Another intreasting fact is that his aura is nolonger white/rainbow but more akin to Super Saiyan Rose's. After this "transformation" is complete Zamasu's power seems to be more stable (he may have even grown stronger), his new arm possess considerable strength with no loss in functionality however it do not appear to be a truly solid mass anymore. Interestingly Zamasu and Black were both right handed and used their ki blades with their right hand, yet Fused Zamasu forms his ki blade with his left. However for all his power, the malformed side of his face appears to be much more vulnerable to damage and Zamasu displays pain when stuck there. He also seems to still be able to regenerate from his wounds but he is no longer a perfect immortal and his body can now be destroyed. In terms of power this version of Zamasu rivals Vegito, I would say Vegito has the edge in ki but its possible that Zamasu's arm give him the edge in brute force.

Full Power Zamasu appears to be similar to Full Power Cell, he powers up to his fullest, growing larger and more powerful but the resulting muscle mass weighs him down. As for exactly why this happens I speculate that its in-part due to his malformed body and, as I've speculated above, he may also have used and outside energy source to increase his power and stabilize his body. While this form dose not do well against Vegito I actually think at this point Zamasu is the more powerful of the two. However his loss of speed put him at a big disadvantage against a warrior with a similar power level, allowing Vegito to run circles round him. Vegito's Final Kamehameha did not seem to do any outward damage on Zamasu or even slow him down although his ki punch to the malformed side of Zamasu's face seems to really hurt him. The battle damage inflected by Vegito on his deformed and unstable body left Zamasu weakened enough for Trunks to do...what ever the hell that was. Its also possible that powering up to his fullest put a strain on Zamasu to.

Universal Zamasu is a beast of a whole other caliber. Now at first glace this seems to come out of nowhere even if you accept the fact that Fused Zamasu's soul is still in the mortal plain due to his immortality. But as I've pointed out above their may be an answer. Black was able slice a gap into reality itself and control the energy's that bled through, Fused Zamasu as I've speculated may have actually drawn energy from reality itself. Now you ask how is that possible? I hypothesis that its some how tied to his nature as a kaioshin, a god of creation. Somehow Black was able to corrupt the naturally benevolent powers of a kaioshin into something darker, Fused Zamasu inherited that power and it was amplified by the fusion. I once again theorize that without a physical body Zamasu's soul latched onto the only thing it could, the fabric of reality itself by using the corrupt power he already possessed. Afterwards he began to spread through it almost like a cosmic virus, infecting and overtaking it. Its impossible to say how strong he is at that point because he has effectively grown beyond our understanding. However we can say Zeno > Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Nov 21, 2016 6:12 pm

He's incredibly durable, and good enough to hang in against Super Saiyan Vegeta, so maybe he should be higher.
Well he did easily overpower him when he used his Galick Gun. He even stood up to the Final Flash briefly. Super Saiyan Goku easily kicked around Frost when he was fresh.

I'm not sure whose stronger between Magetta or Super Saiyan Cabba but I'd put them considerably above Frost. Botamo seemed inferior to First Form Frost in the manga

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:42 pm

Bullza wrote:
He's incredibly durable, and good enough to hang in against Super Saiyan Vegeta, so maybe he should be higher.
Well he did easily overpower him when he used his Galick Gun. He even stood up to the Final Flash briefly. Super Saiyan Goku easily kicked around Frost when he was fresh.

I'm not sure whose stronger between Magetta or Super Saiyan Cabba but I'd put them considerably above Frost. Botamo seemed inferior to First Form Frost in the manga
Magetta is probably the strongest. Vegeta needed an extra effort to beat Magetta, he used his most powerful blast and won with a lucky move. He withstood Cabba's attacks with considerably less effort.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:05 pm

Would Vegetto Blue be able to take Beerus down with Kaioken x10?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:50 pm

Cipher wrote:There are also people, myself included, who believe they simply changed approaches between the Freeza arc and the new material.

So Ressurection F and its TV adaptation are written with those super-strong bases, but as of the Universe 6 tournament, they're back at their previous levels.
That´s pretty much what I think, Toriyama didn´t meant for ssj forms to appear anymore, so he made goku look like he was able to tap into a great amount of his power without transforming into ssj so he could take on final form freeza ( which should be above ssj3 level) and this way the movie would also be bringing back nostalgia .

Then the U6 tournament is introduced and they have to come up with a way to have goku and vegeta fight u6 fighters on par somehow, so they are back at their previous levels so that Frost,magetta and cabba can stand a chance against them, to back my argument, I´m based on not only piccolo´s perfomance against a worn out frost, but a base cabba against base vegeta as well, a base cabba who can´t turn into a ssj, who isn´t even aware of any existing ssj transformation at all,, whose power level is on par to that of vegeta ( vegeta said this himself), taking all of this into account, there´s no way in hell he is at super strong base goku and vegeta level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Mon Nov 21, 2016 8:53 pm

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Would Vegetto Blue be able to take Beerus down with Kaioken x10?
Vegetto blue should be able to take Beerus down without Kaioken, otherwise goku and vegeta will never be able to surpass Beerus´ power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:29 pm

My list would go like this:

Zeno
Grand priest
Whis/Vados
Vegetto blue
Spirit sword Trunks
Goku ssb kkx10
Merged Zamasu
Beerus/Champa
Vegeta ssb
Black goku ssr
Goku ssb
Trunks SSwaiting to be explained
Golden Freeza
Hit ( without his time-leap technique, he can´t defeat any of the above characters)
Super strong base Goku
Super strong base Vegeta
Final form Freeza
Enraged ssj2 Vegeta
Goku ssj3
Gotenks ssj3
Trunks ssj2
Goku ssj2
Zamasu
1st form Freeza
Goku ssj
Vegeta ssj
Magetta
Gohan ssj
Cabba ssj
Frost
Tagoma/Ginyu
Shisami (movie)
Piccolo
Base Goku
Base Vegeta
Base Cabba
Bottamo
Shisami (super)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:20 am

Freezerbaby wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Would Vegetto Blue be able to take Beerus down with Kaioken x10?
Vegetto blue should be able to take Beerus down without Kaioken, otherwise goku and vegeta will never be able to surpass Beerus´ power.
Vegetto didn't seem that strong compared to Goku, though. Goku was able to overpower Zamasu with his Kamehameha and then wreck him with Kaioken x2, if he could sustain the Kaioken for a long time like at the tournament Zamasu would have been toast.
Freezerbaby wrote:My list would go like this:

Zeno
Grand priest
Whis/Vados
Vegetto blue
Spirit sword Trunks
Goku ssb kkx10
Merged Zamasu
Beerus/Champa
Vegeta ssb
Black goku ssr
Goku ssb
Trunks SSwaiting to be explained
Golden Freeza
Hit ( without his time-leap technique, he can´t defeat any of the above characters)
Super strong base Goku
Super strong base Vegeta
Final form Freeza
Enraged ssj2 Vegeta
Goku ssj3
Gotenks ssj3
Trunks ssj2
Goku ssj2
Zamasu
1st form Freeza
Goku ssj
Vegeta ssj
Magetta
Gohan ssj
Cabba ssj
I disagree with some of these:
-SSJ Gohan should be much higher, even his base power is higher than Piccolo's, plus his SSJ allows him to access some of his Ultimate power.

- Magetta should be higher than SSJ Vegeta & Goku.

- 1st form Frieza is probably stronger than Zamasu and SSJ2 Goku, he was able to job Gohan effortlessly.

- Trunks should be inferior to Goku.

- Hit would easily destroy Golden Frieza and Trunks' SSJ2God even without timeskip, he could probably even beat SSB Goku and Vegeta from this arc before they got their powerups.

- Goku Black powered up once again and surpassed Vegeta with his final Zenkai before he fused with Zamasu.

- Goku's SSB Kaioken x10 is stated to be inferior to Beerus, Beerus and Champa should be a lot higher.

- Spirit Sword Trunks isn't that strong, Zamasu was already on the verge of collapse from Vegetto's beating, Vegetto simply defused before he could land the final blow. The only thing Trunks did was finish off a heavily weakened Zamasu.

- Vegetto Blue is below Kaioken x10 Goku from his feats. Goku was able to wreck half of Zamasu's body and destroy his halo using only Kaioken x2, so Vegetto's probably only around Kaioken x3-4 level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:25 am

Sadly Super is so inconsistent it is impossible to tell where characters stand compared to each other.

Its like Buu saga, just much worse.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PsionicWarrior » Tue Nov 22, 2016 6:38 am

buutenks wrote:Sadly Super is so inconsistent it is impossible to tell where characters stand compared to each other.

Its like Buu saga, just much worse.
I could tell where chars stand compared to each other in Buu saga lol

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:08 am

With the Future Trunks arc finished, here is my list:

Zenno
Vegetto Blue
Genki Sword Super Trunks
Huge Melted Merged Zamasu
Melted Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Daishinkai
Whis
Beerus
Kaio-Ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Kaio-Ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Vegeta post-RoSaT)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku (after his fights with SSR Black)
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs Super Trunks)
Super Trunks
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Goku)
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks (enraged)
Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Vegeta)
Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SS2 Goku)
Son Goku Black Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks (post-training)
Future Zamasu
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta | Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Super Saiyan Son Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Son Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks
Last edited by DBZGTKOSDH on Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:13 am

buutenks wrote:Sadly Super is so inconsistent it is impossible to tell where characters stand compared to each other.

Its like Buu saga, just much worse.
It's easy to tell where everyone stand:

Vegito Blue
Mutated Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Goku with Kaioken
Goku Black
Vegeta
Goku
Future Trunks
Future Zamasu
Present Zamasu


The only real question is where Hit would be at if you include the U6 fighters. Personally, I put him higher than Future Zamasu, but lower than Future Trunks. Everyone else is kind of irrelevant since they're no where near this level. I also go back and forward about Vegeta being stronger than Goku outside the Kaioken because outside of Vegeta beating on Black, Goku has much better feats.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:18 am

Zenno
Vegetto Blue
Huge Melted Merged Zamasu
Melted Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Daishinkai
Whis
Beerus
:think:

Anyway, Vegetto can't use kaioken kkx10. If Vegetto ssjb can stay fused only for 10 minutes, with kkx10 he can stay fused for....10 seconds?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Nov 22, 2016 7:20 am

Legion wrote:
Zenno
Vegetto Blue
Huge Melted Merged Zamasu
Melted Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Daishinkai
Whis
Beerus
:think:

Anyway, Vegetto can't use kaioken kkx10. If Vegetto ssjb can stay fused only for 10 minutes, with kkx10 he can stay fused for....10 seconds?
To be sure, we don't actually know how long Vegetto was actually fused. Remember, this is the same series where five minutes equaled ten episodes.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by lao233 » Tue Nov 22, 2016 9:49 am

I see everyone is ignoring bodiless/spirit Zamasu in those lists.

He was apparently so powerful his powers started creeping into another timeline and had Beerus/Whis worried (?).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Freezerbaby » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:23 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:
Freezerbaby wrote:
TheUltimateNinja wrote:Would Vegetto Blue be able to take Beerus down with Kaioken x10?
Vegetto blue should be able to take Beerus down without Kaioken, otherwise goku and vegeta will never be able to surpass Beerus´ power.
Vegetto didn't seem that strong compared to Goku, though. Goku was able to overpower Zamasu with his Kamehameha and then wreck him with Kaioken x2, if he could sustain the Kaioken for a long time like at the tournament Zamasu would have been toast.
Freezerbaby wrote:My list would go like this:

Zeno
Grand priest
Whis/Vados
Vegetto blue
Spirit sword Trunks
Goku ssb kkx10
Merged Zamasu
Beerus/Champa
Vegeta ssb
Black goku ssr
Goku ssb
Trunks SSwaiting to be explained
Golden Freeza
Hit ( without his time-leap technique, he can´t defeat any of the above characters)
Super strong base Goku
Super strong base Vegeta
Final form Freeza
Enraged ssj2 Vegeta
Goku ssj3
Gotenks ssj3
Trunks ssj2
Goku ssj2
Zamasu
1st form Freeza
Goku ssj
Vegeta ssj
Magetta
Gohan ssj
Cabba ssj
I disagree with some of these:
-SSJ Gohan should be much higher, even his base power is higher than Piccolo's, plus his SSJ allows him to access some of his Ultimate power.

- Magetta should be higher than SSJ Vegeta & Goku.

- 1st form Frieza is probably stronger than Zamasu and SSJ2 Goku, he was able to job Gohan effortlessly.

- Trunks should be inferior to Goku.

- Hit would easily destroy Golden Frieza and Trunks' SSJ2God even without timeskip, he could probably even beat SSB Goku and Vegeta from this arc before they got their powerups.

- Goku Black powered up once again and surpassed Vegeta with his final Zenkai before he fused with Zamasu.

- Goku's SSB Kaioken x10 is stated to be inferior to Beerus, Beerus and Champa should be a lot higher.

- Spirit Sword Trunks isn't that strong, Zamasu was already on the verge of collapse from Vegetto's beating, Vegetto simply defused before he could land the final blow. The only thing Trunks did was finish off a heavily weakened Zamasu.

- Vegetto Blue is below Kaioken x10 Goku from his feats. Goku was able to wreck half of Zamasu's body and destroy his halo using only Kaioken x2, so Vegetto's probably only around Kaioken x3-4 level.
-Goku is only shown to use kaioken against zamasu, we don´t know if it is x2 or x10,though everyone assume it is x10 since it looks like the same as he used at the tournament, remember he broke his arms after using the kame hame ha too,while Vegetto looked fresh even after using his final kame hame ha.

-Tagoma makes easy work of both piccolo and base gohan, so I don´t see base gohan above Piccolo, plus ssj gohan states that he can´t maintain that form for long because of lack of training, I think that ssj gohan is just a basic ssj, because I think toriyama likes to keep power level scale as simple as Namek Freeza<ssj<Cell<ssj2<Majin Boo<ssj3 , but I do think goku and vegeta ssj are higher than Gohan ssj.

-Magetta lost to Vegeta ssj, no way magetta>vegeta ssj

-We only can surmise about where 1st form freeza stands, I think he is about perfect cell level.

-Trunks ssj2 is stated to be higher than goku ssj2 , his new form is inferior to ssb goku of course.

-Hit power level at the anime is fucked up, how on earth can he survive a ssb goku kaioken x10 kame hame ha? his time skip technique is what would make him win against the characters I put above him

-You may be right abour goku black, though he only stalls goku and vegeta for zamasu to kill the others, no hint about him overpowering them

-After this arc, goku ssb kaioken x 10 should be at least equal to beerus and champa if he can take on merged zamasu

- As for spirit sword trunks, the thing is that I don´t care anymore about that, you are probably quite right though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by apex_pretador » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:28 am

buutenks wrote:Sadly Super is so inconsistent it is impossible to tell where characters stand compared to each other.

Its like Buu saga, just much worse.
Not really, To me, it is all cleared up now. I'm planning to do a list of power levels using base goten as a unit.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Tue Nov 22, 2016 11:43 am

Goku kkx10 can't take on merged Zamasu (can deal with him for a short time, that's all, but he can't really beat him) and there is no way that is stronger than him, Beerus and Champa. And i see that some people put Goku about Vegetto....I know that both fusion power was made really unimpressive (in fact, most of the people agree that are still below the Gods/Angel), but come on, guys :wtf:

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