Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

Sadly Super is so inconsistent it is impossible to tell where characters stand compared to each other.

Its like Buu saga, just much worse.

Not really, To me, it is all cleared up now. I'm planning to do a list of power levels using base goten as a unit.

Really? Ok is base Goku god level or just above ssj3 Gotenks? How do cabba, frost and magetta compare? r they ssg level also? How can ssj2 Trunks be as strong or stronger than ssj2 Goku yet not be able to sense god ki? And now he suddenly knows how. Was ssj2 Goku so suppressed that he was at the level of z era ssj2 or atleast much weaker than his own base form? And that smacking from Vegeta boosted him to ssg level in the span of a few minutes?

The inconsistency is still there.

[Lord Beerus]

With the Future Trunks arc finished, here is my list:

Zenno
Vegetto Blue
Genki Sword Super Trunks
Huge Melted Merged Zamasu
Melted Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Daishinkai
Whis
Beerus
Kaio-Ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Kaio-Ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Vegeta post-RoSaT)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku (after his fights with SSR Black)
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs Super Trunks)
Super Trunks
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Goku)
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks (enraged)
Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Vegeta)
Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SS2 Goku)
Son Goku Black Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks (post-training)
Future Zamasu
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta | Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Super Saiyan Son Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Son Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks

I don't think we should jump the gun on how strong Beerus, Whis and Daishinkai. Their true strength is still literally unknown. I honestly think those three character should be place anywhere on hypothetical power rankings until we have a better idea of how strong they are. For all we know, Beerus and/or Whis could non-chonlantly state they could have taken down Merged Zamasu or that, while Vegetto Blue is strong, it's nothing they couldn't handle. Scenarios like this have happened quite frequently in Super.

[buutenks]

I agree about Beerus, Whis and so forth. It is impossible to place them atm since we do not know their full power and how their FP compares to the z fighters and villains.

[Bullza]

Really? Ok is base Goku god level or just above ssj3 Gotenks?

I personally think he's God level. Even if you don't compare them to Super Saiyan God, I still have them at the start of the Resurrection F arc as being over 10 times as strong as Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku who I guess was stronger than Mystic Gohan (either way he's definitely above Mystic Gohan).

How do cabba, frost and magetta compare?

Base Cabba should be equal to Base Vegeta. Super Saiyan Cabba not that far below Super Saiyan Vegeta. Magetta probably closer to Super Saiyan Vegeta. Frost above their Base forms but nowhere near their Super Saiyan forms.

How can ssj2 Trunks be as strong or stronger than ssj2 Goku yet not be able to sense god ki?

Inconsistency or a completely different writer of that episode going by the original "mortals can't sense Gods" idea hence why he was able to sense God Ki in Base form after acquiring God Ki for himself.

Was ssj2 Goku so suppressed that he was at the level of z era ssj2 or atleast much weaker than his own base form?

Nah Trunks just got a convenient plot power boost. His power was enough for Goku to be amazed by how far he'd come and he also recieved praise from Beerus.

Bulma saw Goku and Beerus fight and the damage it did and could have done to the Earth so is possibly the reason why she created that energy barrier thing. You'd think she'd have made it with enough power to sustain things like that and Trunks just destroyed it when he powered up to max.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Nah Trunks just got a convenient plot power boost. His power was enough for Goku to be amazed by how far he'd come and he also recieved praise from Beerus.

Bulma saw Goku and Beerus fight and the damage it did and could have done to the Earth so is possibly the reason why she created that energy barrier thing. You'd think she'd have made it with enough power to sustain things like that and Trunks just destroyed it when he powered up to max.

This is the most retarded thing I've ever heard, Goku and Vegeta became Gods, trained under Whis, and also trained together in the time chamber for 3 years, there's no way Trunks achieves that level of power on his own. This is why I dislike the idea of Goku and Vegeta simply having a very strong base, it makes lots of people far more powerful than they have any right to be.

[Bullza]

This is the most retarded thing I've ever heard

Well I mean...that's just kinda how it is.

Some people write off what happened in the anime with the Goku vs Trunks fight and suggest he's not even close to Goku. Though in the manga it's undisputable that Trunks is comparable to Goku and you'd think it'd just be true for the anime too and you can argue that it was.

But even in the manga where Goku didn't absorb the power of a God there's still no way that Trunks should be close to as strong as him.

I've said this before but Goku was stronger than Trunks at the Cell Games. From there Goku's had 14 years to train, an extra 3 years in the ROSAT, he's trained on King Kai's planet with 10 x gravity with magical weights, he's had Vegeta as a sparring partner and he's been trained by Whis.

Trunks however has had just 10 years to train and except for training with the Z Sword, he's had no other advantages and yet his SSJ2 is equal to Goku's SSJ3. He should just be around the level of Gohan after he'd trained with the sword.

He shouldn't be as strong as he but he is because of the plot. If they've brought back a fan favourite character after such a long time then you don't really want him to be a weak little pansy.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This is the most retarded thing I've ever heard

Well I mean...that's just kinda how it is.

Some people write off what happened in the anime with the Goku vs Trunks fight and suggest he's not even close to Goku. Though in the manga it's undisputable that Trunks is comparable to Goku and you'd think it'd just be true for the anime too and you can argue that it was.

But even in the manga where Goku didn't absorb the power of a God there's still no way that Trunks should be close to as strong as him.

I've said this before but Goku was stronger than Trunks at the Cell Games. From there Goku's had 14 years to train, an extra 3 years in the ROSAT, he's trained on King Kai's planet with 10 x gravity with magical weights, he's had Vegeta as a sparring partner and he's been trained by Whis.

Trunks however has had just 10 years to train and except for training with the Z Sword, he's had no other advantages and yet his SSJ2 is equal to Goku's SSJ3. He should just be around the level of Gohan after he'd trained with the sword.

He shouldn't be as strong as he but he is because of the plot. If they've brought back a fan favourite character after such a long time then you don't really want him to be a weak little pansy.

You can handwave manga SSJ2 Trunks being close to SSJ3 Goku by saying he grows much faster due to being a hybrid and he mastered SSJ2 to make it a lot stronger or whatever, but there is no explanation for him being close to anime Goku and Vegeta who surpass Ultimate Gohan and probably Super Vegetto at the very least in base, and that's being conservative.

[Bullza]

But this same rate of growth didn't help him back in the Cell Saga and where Goku improved vastly more from the same amount of time spent in the ROSAT.

The may also be no such thing as a mastered Super Saiyan 2. What we have is Trunks being four times as powerful as Goku (If SSJ2 = SSJ3) from about half the training time with next to no advantages.

It's just the same idea in the manga as in the anime, he improved enough to match Goku it's just that in the anime he had to improve more because Goku's stronger there. Same with Cabba and the others, they were required to be stronger in the anime than in the manga because Goku is stronger in the anime.

It's odd and it doesn't logically make sense but that's what the story required. Essentially Trunks did in about 10 years what Vegeta did in about 6 months.

[Noah]

With the Future Trunks arc finished, here is my list:

Zenno
Vegetto Blue
Genki Sword Super Trunks
Huge Melted Merged Zamasu
Melted Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Daishinkai
Whis
Beerus

Vegetto fanboy much?

Please mate, what even it makes you think that this is possible? One could argue that Merged Zamasu/Vegetto Blue are stronger than Beerus, but stronger than Whis (that both Goku and Vegeta didn't reach a fraction of his power as both are still inferior to Beerus), stronger than Daishinkan said to be even more powerful than Whis? I suppose you're kidding.

Vegetto is not that all powerful he couldn't finish Merged Zamasu with his best technique and yet Future Trunks could, don't start talking "Oh but Vegetto weakened Zamasu" cause that is BS as he was still on his peak against Trunks.

[Cetra]

As things are I think - though this is pure speculation:

Zenou
Univerzalmasu
?Zenou Guards?
Daishinkan
Whis/Vados
Neo Zamasu before Ascension/Super Vegetto
?Goku with Kaiouken?/Genki-Trunks
Beerus/Champa
Goku Black
Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Hit
Alternate Zamasu

[Legion]

Amazing how much are overrated Goku KKX10/GenkiTrunks and how much are underrated Whis, Priest,Beerus and Champa in this forum.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

With the Future Trunks arc finished, here is my list:

Zenno
Vegetto Blue
Genki Sword Super Trunks
Huge Melted Merged Zamasu
Melted Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Daishinkai
Whis
Beerus

Vegetto fanboy much?

Please mate, what even it makes you think that this is possible? One could argue that Merged Zamasu/Vegetto Blue are stronger than Beerus, but stronger than Whis (that both Goku and Vegeta didn't reach a fraction of his power as both are still inferior to Beerus), stronger than Daishinkan said to be even more powerful than Whis? I suppose you're kidding.

Vegetto is not that all powerful he couldn't finish Merged Zamasu with his best technique and yet Future Trunks could, don't start talking "Oh but Vegetto weakened Zamasu" cause that is BS as he was still on his peak against Trunks.

I'm very objective here. Base Vegetto was around Gohan Boo's level, who was stronger than Gotenks Boo, who was stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who was stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who was x8 stronger than SS Gotenks, who was at around the same level as SS3 Goku, who was x400 stronger than base Goku. So, Vegetto is thousands times stronger than Goku & Vegeta in the same form, and so far there is no indication that the gap between Beerus & SSB Goku and Vegeta is that big.

Besides, that anime producer called SSR Black the strongest after Beerus, and he called Merged Zamasu a cheat fighter, and even in the series everyone said that Merged Zamasu's power was beyond anything they could imagine, and not only he grew much stronger after that, but he never surpassed Vegetto Blue. So, until it's confirmed otherwise, I'll place Merged Zamasu & Vegetto Blue far above anyone else except Zenno.

Also, I'm gonna add Universal Zamasu in the list:

Zenno
Vegetto Blue
Genki Sword Super Trunks
Universal Zamasu
Huge Melted Merged Zamasu
Melted Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Daishinkai
Whis
Beerus
Kaio-Ken x10 Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Kaio-Ken Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Vegeta post-RoSaT)
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta (post-RoSaT)
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku (after his fights with SSR Black)
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs Super Trunks)
Super Trunks
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Goku)
Super Saiyan Rosé Son Goku Black Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Son Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks (enraged)
Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SSB Vegeta)
Son Goku Black Zamasu (after vs SS2 Goku)
Son Goku Black Zamasu
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks (post-training)
Future Zamasu
Super Saiyan 3 Son Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Son Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta | Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Super Saiyan Son Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Future Trunks
Son Goku | Vegeta | Future Trunks

[Noah]

I'm very objective here. Base Vegetto was around Gohan Boo's level, who was stronger than Gotenks Boo, who was stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who was stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who was x8 stronger than SS Gotenks, who was at around the same level as SS3 Goku, who was x400 stronger than base Goku. So, Vegetto is thousands times stronger than Goku & Vegeta in the same form, and so far there is no indication that the gap between Beerus & SSB Goku and Vegeta is that big.

Besides, that anime producer called SSR Black the strongest after Beerus, and he called Merged Zamasu a cheat fighter, and even in the series everyone said that Merged Zamasu's power was beyond anything they could imagine, and not only he grew much stronger after that, but he never surpassed Vegetto Blue. So, until it's confirmed otherwise, I'll place Merged Zamasu & Vegetto Blue far above anyone else except Zenno.

These are just made up numbers by yourself, mate, by the way the producer said:

"The God of Destruction Beerus is overwhelmingly strong, but if we leave him out, then I think the strongest fighter is Goku Black. I’d say he’s used Son Goku’s power as a base and evolved in his own, unique way."

He isn't stating anything as fact he was just giving his impressions, as people speculated that he wasn't aware of Merged Zamasu yet as it wasn't mentioned in the interview.

Let's just forget about numbers and starting talking about facts:

The gap between them are indeed that big, since KK x10 + SSGSS is still not enough to put Beerus down, this same Goku (maybe a little stronger than before) without KK was able alone to hurt Merged Zamasu with his Kamehameha

Merged Zamasu is a cheat character because of his half immortality and self improvement, power-wise is not stated anywhere that he is indeed more powerful than Beerus as we never seen the latter in his full power, neither Whis or Daishinkan

I'll say it again, it's arguable that Vegetto could be stronger than Beerus, but It's silly at best to think he is stronger than these guys (bold) since he didn't curbstomped Merged Zamasu, a enemy that Future Trunks who was not a fusion being could keep up with no major damage, why people don't list him being on par with Vegetto? Absurd or not, unfortunately it is what is shown in the series.

[GodVegetto91]

With the Future Trunks arc finished, here is my list:

Zenno
Vegetto Blue
Genki Sword Super Trunks
Huge Melted Merged Zamasu
Melted Merged Zamasu
Merged Zamasu
Daishinkai
Whis
Beerus

Vegetto fanboy much?

Please mate, what even it makes you think that this is possible? One could argue that Merged Zamasu/Vegetto Blue are stronger than Beerus, but stronger than Whis (that both Goku and Vegeta didn't reach a fraction of his power as both are still inferior to Beerus), stronger than Daishinkan said to be even more powerful than Whis? I suppose you're kidding.

Vegetto is not that all powerful he couldn't finish Merged Zamasu with his best technique and yet Future Trunks could, don't start talking "Oh but Vegetto weakened Zamasu" cause that is BS as he was still on his peak against Trunks.

Well you could make an argument for Whis. It's not completely out of the realm of possibility for SSJ Blue Vegetto to be stronger than Whis.. but the Grand Priest... Hell No!

[Bullza]

On the subject of the Grand Priest wasn't there something said about him in the manga about how he's the strongest in the multiverse? The anime mentioned he was in the Top 5 but I suppose this would confirm him as being #1?

Now that I think about it that Top 5 likely wasn't even including Zeno who they did say didn't fight.

[Sora Saiyan]

On the subject of the Grand Priest wasn't there something said about him in the manga about how he's the strongest in the multiverse? The anime mentioned he was in the Top 5 but I suppose this would confirm him as being #1?

Now that I think about it that Top 5 likely wasn't even including Zeno who they did say didn't fight.

Yeah, the manga does say that Daishinkan is the strongest, and I've gotta say it did make me wonder if there's four other governing Angels who are the ones below him, similar to how Dai Kaioshin, and Dai Kaio had four Kaioshin/Kaio below them.

By the way I've just been wondering how the heck Zamasu managed to gather those Super DBS on himself to make his wish.

[buutenks]

On the subject of the Grand Priest wasn't there something said about him in the manga about how he's the strongest in the multiverse? The anime mentioned he was in the Top 5 but I suppose this would confirm him as being #1?

Now that I think about it that Top 5 likely wasn't even including Zeno who they did say didn't fight.

Yeah, the manga does say that Daishinkan is the strongest, and I've gotta say it did make me wonder if there's four other governing Angels who are the ones below him, similar to how Dai Kaioshin, and Dai Kaio had four Kaioshin/Kaio below them.

By the way I've just been wondering how the heck Zamasu managed to gather those Super DBS on himself to make his wish.

Think he did it the same way Vados did.

[ZombieVito]

These are just made up numbers by yourself, mate.

Eh? No. They are not made up.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I'm very objective here. Base Vegetto was around Gohan Boo's level, who was stronger than Gotenks Boo, who was stronger than Ultimate Gohan, who was stronger than SS3 Gotenks, who was x8 stronger than SS Gotenks, who was at around the same level as SS3 Goku, who was x400 stronger than base Goku. So, Vegetto is thousands times stronger than Goku & Vegeta in the same form, and so far there is no indication that the gap between Beerus & SSB Goku and Vegeta is that big.

Besides, that anime producer called SSR Black the strongest after Beerus, and he called Merged Zamasu a cheat fighter, and even in the series everyone said that Merged Zamasu's power was beyond anything they could imagine, and not only he grew much stronger after that, but he never surpassed Vegetto Blue. So, until it's confirmed otherwise, I'll place Merged Zamasu & Vegetto Blue far above anyone else except Zenno.

These are just made up numbers by yourself, mate, by the way the producer said:

"The God of Destruction Beerus is overwhelmingly strong, but if we leave him out, then I think the strongest fighter is Goku Black. I’d say he’s used Son Goku’s power as a base and evolved in his own, unique way."

He isn't stating anything as fact he was just giving his impressions, as people speculated that he wasn't aware of Merged Zamasu yet as it wasn't mentioned in the interview.

Let's just forget about numbers and starting talking about facts:

The gap between them are indeed that big, since KK x10 + SSGSS is still not enough to put Beerus down, this same Goku (maybe a little stronger than before) without KK was able alone to hurt Merged Zamasu with his Kamehameha

Merged Zamasu is a cheat character because of his half immortality and self improvement, power-wise is not stated anywhere that he is indeed more powerful than Beerus as we never seen the latter in his full power, neither Whis or Daishinkan

I'll say it again, it's arguable that Vegetto could be stronger than Beerus, but It's silly at best to think he is stronger than these guys (bold) since he didn't curbstomped Merged Zamasu, a enemy that Future Trunks who was not a fusion being could keep up with no major damage, why people don't list him being on par with Vegetto? Absurd or not, unfortunately it is what is shown in the series.

I didn't make up any numbers, they come from official guidebooks, and the who-is-stronger-than-who is clearly shown in the anime.

And basically, your answer is "are you kidding me, Whis & Daishinkai as sooooo strong, no way they are weaker than Merged Zamasu", even though there is no way to tell because we've never seen them fighting and they never had any feats, other than being stronger than Beerus (and even though the 6 number for SSG Goku has been proven to have been retconned in the anime, the 10 & 15 numbers for Beerus & Whis have yet to be retconned). The reason I believe that Vegetto is so immensely powerful is because the last time we saw him, well, he was so immensely powerful the last time we saw him. Why would that change? It may have changed because the gap between Goku & Vegeta here is a little bigger though, but let's wait & see first.

I'm not saying that there is no way that Beerus, Whis, etc are stronger than Vegetto Blue & Merged Zamasu, but we can't know for sure at this point, and all we have are our educated guesses. Acting as if your opinion is a fact, that's what's actually really silly.

[Noah]

Eh? No. They are not made up.

I'm not talking about guide multipliers I talking about him assuming that Base Vegetto is already stronger than Boo-han (anime only), but then you say "Oh but Super do consider some fillers and etc." even by that, we could still argue if Boohan was using his full power from the start, by the way I can argue that SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta were almost strong as SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan too, why not?

And basically, your answer is "are you kidding me, Whis & Daishinkai as sooooo strong, no way they are weaker than Merged Zamasu", even though there is no way to tell because we've never seen them fighting and they never had any feats, other than being stronger than Beerus (and even though the 6 number for SSG Goku has been proven to have been retconned in the anime, the 10 & 15 numbers for Beerus & Whis have yet to be retconned). The reason I believe that Vegetto is so immensely powerful is because the last time we saw him, well, he was so immensely powerful the last time we saw him. Why would that change? It may have changed because the gap between Goku & Vegeta here is a little bigger though, but let's wait & see first.

I'm not saying that there is no way that Beerus, Whis, etc are stronger than Vegetto Blue & Merged Zamasu, but we can't know for sure at this point, and all we have are our educated guesses. Acting as if your opinion is a fact, that's what's actually really silly.

No. My answer was giving you facts presented in the anime that kept ignoring to prove your point. You can't just think the same formula in DBZ would apply to Super!
For god's sake this is the show that people are still trying to figure out if there is some kind of two bases for the Saiyans, if Piccolo really had a huge power jump to MSSJ -tier to God-tier and how can be possible to Rageta be 10% of Beerus full power if 10xKK + SSGSS is still not enough to defeat him.

Super is not consistent as DBZ was back then in terms of power levels, assuming because Vegetto was "thousand times" stronger than Goku and Vegeta in Boo Arc, the same would apply in Super is not right. The show just give us vague statements of who is stronger than who, which give us the option of interpreting what we see scene by scene.