Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

Super is not consistent as DBZ was back then in terms of power levels, assuming because Vegetto was "thousand times" stronger than Goku and Vegeta in Boo Arc, the same would apply in Super is not right. The show just give us vague statements of who is stronger than who, which give us the option of interpreting what we see scene by scene.

There's no need for Vegetto to be 1,000x stronger than Goku/Vegeta, 100x is enough to place his SSJ comfortably above Buuhan.

Anyway, fusion has clearly been majorly nerfed in this arc, Vegetto would probably lose to Hit.

[Bullza]

Merged Zamasu had more power than Vegeta and Supreme Kai had ever felt before so it's safe to say that he's above SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 and Hit from the Universe 6 saga. Vegeta has sensed Beerus' power but he's never used 100% but then this was Merged Zamasu before powering up too.

Merged Zamasu knocked out Base Goku and Vegeta with one punch. Beerus did not do anything like that to Super Saiyan God Goku or Base Goku when they fought though again he wasn't fighting at full power.

Goku and Vegeta seemed to be less hurt taking that unrestrained mouth blast from Beerus than the punch from Zamasu though so take that as you will. I think there are things that point to Zamasu being stronger but from a story perspective I don't think he will be.

[Legion]

Beerus just wanted to have fun with Goku ssjg. Beerus vs "base" Goku was just a filler, but in that scene was holding back and he did not want to be recognized.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Merged Zamasu had more power than Vegeta and Supreme Kai had ever felt before so it's safe to say that he's above SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 and Hit from the Universe 6 saga. Vegeta has sensed Beerus' power but he's never used 100% but then this was Merged Zamasu before powering up too.

Merged Zamasu knocked out Base Goku and Vegeta with one punch. Beerus did not do anything like that to Super Saiyan God Goku or Base Goku when they fought though again he wasn't fighting at full power.

Goku and Vegeta seemed to be less hurt taking that unrestrained mouth blast from Beerus than the punch from Zamasu though so take that as you will. I think there are things that point to Zamasu being stronger but from a story perspective I don't think he will be.

Merged Zamasu also got jobbed by Goku twice in a row which never happened to Beerus. And Goku was only SSBlue the first time and only used Kaioken x2 the second time, and given the fact that Beerus is above Kaioken x10 Goku he should beat Merged Zamasu easily. In fact, even Kaioken x4 Goku should wreck him.

[HeroR]

Beerus just wanted to have fun with Goku ssjg. Beerus vs "base" Goku was just a filler, but in that scene was holding back and he did not want to be recognized.

Filler isn't the word you're looking for since it happened in both the movie and Super.

[ZombieVito]

Eh? No. They are not made up.

I'm not talking about guide multipliers I talking about him assuming that Base Vegetto is already stronger than Boo-han (anime only), but then you say "Oh but Super do consider some fillers and etc." even by that, we could still argue if Boohan was using his full power from the start, by the way I can argue that SSJ2 Goku and Vegeta were almost strong as SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan too, why not?

Why say numbers then?

There's no need for Vegetto to be 1,000x stronger than Goku/Vegeta, 100x is enough to place his SSJ comfortably above Buuhan.

Anyway, fusion has clearly been majorly nerfed in this arc, Vegetto would probably lose to Hit.

I absolutely agree with the first thing. The second though?

[TheUltimateNinja]

I absolutely agree with the first thing. The second though?

If fusion was as strong as it was in the Buu Arc, Zamasu would get erased by Base Vegetto. He got wrecked by the Father Son Galick Gun, then Goku's Kamehameha, and finally that kick from Kaioken Goku which shattered his halo. So clearly he's not a massive amount stronger than our heroes, maybe 2x stronger or so, Vegetto should have no trouble with him yet he experiences significant trouble fighting Zamasu.

[Bullza]

Merged Zamasu also got jobbed by Goku twice in a row which never happened to Beerus. And Goku was only SSBlue the first time and only used Kaioken x2 the second time, and given the fact that Beerus is above Kaioken x10 Goku he should beat Merged Zamasu easily. In fact, even Kaioken x4 Goku should wreck him.

But Goku was vastly more powerful when he jobbed Merged Zamasu so there's no guarantee that he couldn't have done the same to Beerus yet.

Yeah Beerus was stronger than Goku using the Kaioken x10 during the Tournament but so was Merged Zamasu.

Just from what we've seen Merged Zamasu has the better showing against the Saiyans than Beerus did while he also fought the much stronger version of those Saiyans. Like how Goku threw a punch at Beerus and he blocked it then forced him back into space whereas Zamasu stopped Goku and Vegeta's punches effortlessly then broke their arms.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Merged Zamasu also got jobbed by Goku twice in a row which never happened to Beerus. And Goku was only SSBlue the first time and only used Kaioken x2 the second time, and given the fact that Beerus is above Kaioken x10 Goku he should beat Merged Zamasu easily. In fact, even Kaioken x4 Goku should wreck him.

But Goku was vastly more powerful when he jobbed Merged Zamasu so there's no guarantee that he couldn't have done the same to Beerus yet.

Yeah Beerus was stronger than Goku using the Kaioken x10 during the Tournament but so was Merged Zamasu.

Just from what we've seen Merged Zamasu has the better showing against the Saiyans than Beerus did while he also fought the much stronger version of those Saiyans. Like how Goku threw a punch at Beerus and he blocked it then forced him back into space whereas Zamasu stopped Goku and Vegeta's punches effortlessly then broke their arms.

There's no indication they've powered up enough to surpass Beerus, Goku would have to become 6-7x stronger at least for his Kaioken to surpass Beerus and there's nothing to show he even became 2x stronger than he was at the start of this arc.

[Bullza]

And they surely haven't surpassed Beerus but we don't know how far away from him they are. Merged Zamasu initially was far stronger than SSJB Goku. Beerus is also going to be stronger than SSJB Goku but by a bigger or smaller margin than Zamasu?

Merged Zamasu also powered up an unclear amount against Vegito so was that the point he passed Beerus?

You can't really give a definite answer yes. Feats wise Zamasu appears superior but Zamasu fought at full power and Beerus didn't but we don't know know the full extent of Beerus' power.

Again Vegeta said he'd never felt power like Merged Zamasu's and that was before he powered up and Vegeta had sensed Beerus' power when he was starting to get into it with Champa.

[ZombieVito]

I absolutely agree with the first thing. The second though?

If fusion was as strong as it was in the Buu Arc, Zamasu would get erased by Base Vegetto. He got wrecked by the Father Son Galick Gun, then Goku's Kamehameha, and finally that kick from Kaioken Goku which shattered his halo. So clearly he's not a massive amount stronger than our heroes, maybe 2x stronger or so, Vegetto should have no trouble with him yet he experiences significant trouble fighting Zamasu.

The only real damage Zamasu received was from Goku. He completely tanked the Galick Gun and even Goku just dealt damage to him because he left his guard down.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I absolutely agree with the first thing. The second though?

If fusion was as strong as it was in the Buu Arc, Zamasu would get erased by Base Vegetto. He got wrecked by the Father Son Galick Gun, then Goku's Kamehameha, and finally that kick from Kaioken Goku which shattered his halo. So clearly he's not a massive amount stronger than our heroes, maybe 2x stronger or so, Vegetto should have no trouble with him yet he experiences significant trouble fighting Zamasu.

The only real damage Zamasu received was from Goku. He completely tanked the Galick Gun and even Goku just dealt damage to him because he left his guard down.

Goku destroyed half his body and then kicked him into the ground so hard his halo broke, if Zamasu had the same multiplier Vegetto had in the Buu Arc none of Goku's attacks would do anything.

[ZombieVito]

If fusion was as strong as it was in the Buu Arc, Zamasu would get erased by Base Vegetto. He got wrecked by the Father Son Galick Gun, then Goku's Kamehameha, and finally that kick from Kaioken Goku which shattered his halo. So clearly he's not a massive amount stronger than our heroes, maybe 2x stronger or so, Vegetto should have no trouble with him yet he experiences significant trouble fighting Zamasu.

The only real damage Zamasu received was from Goku. He completely tanked the Galick Gun and even Goku just dealt damage to him because he left his guard down.

Goku destroyed half his body and then kicked him into the ground so hard his halo broke, if Zamasu had the same multiplier Vegetto had in the Buu Arc none of Goku's attacks would do anything.

No he didn't. He just damaged his face.

Zamasu was in complete shock Goku managed to hit him (Goku broke his arms doing this BTW) that he left his defense wide open. Even if the gap is really big, it wouldn't matter. Just look at Goku vs Sorbet.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The only real damage Zamasu received was from Goku. He completely tanked the Galick Gun and even Goku just dealt damage to him because he left his guard down.

Goku destroyed half his body and then kicked him into the ground so hard his halo broke, if Zamasu had the same multiplier Vegetto had in the Buu Arc none of Goku's attacks would do anything.

No he didn't. He just damaged his face.

Zamasu was in complete shock Goku managed to hit him (Goku broke his arms doing this BTW) that he left his defense wide open. Even if the gap is really big, it wouldn't matter. Just look at Goku vs Sorbet.

Even so, he had his guard up when Goku used the Kaioken to kick him. And broken arms or not, with a substantial gap in power it should do no damage at all if your opponent sees you coming. Would Nail have done any damage to Frieza if he broke his arms hitting him?

[HeroR]

[
Even so, he had his guard up when Goku used the Kaioken to kick him. And broken arms or not, with a substantial gap in power it should do no damage at all if your opponent sees you coming. Would Nail have done any damage to Frieza if he broke his arms hitting him?

That Nail example makes no sense since Nail had no way to increase his power. Goku kicked Merged Zamasu with a Kaioken, meaning Goku's power was at least double at the time. And Merged Zamasu didn't see it coming giving his 'What?' reaction.

This is more of a case of fans thinking Vegito in the Buu Saga was much stronger than he actually was and people underestimating Merged Zamasu since he was too arrogant to dodge crap and kept dropping his guard like Future Zamasu.

[DBZ Macky]

I've seen people claim Vegetto being stronger than Beerus but not Whis. How does that even work?
We know that Beerus was retconed to be a wall that Goku won't surpass for a long time. So Goku can't be a 6 against Beerus' 10.

However I feel that Whis should still be a 15 if Beerus is a 10, since there was no indication that Whis compared differently against Beerus in the Anime/Manga as compared to the movies.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that Whis shouldn't be that much stronger than Beerus.
Do you guys agree?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Even so, he had his guard up when Goku used the Kaioken to kick him. And broken arms or not, with a substantial gap in power it should do no damage at all if your opponent sees you coming. Would Nail have done any damage to Frieza if he broke his arms hitting him?

That Nail example makes no sense since Nail had no way to increase his power. Goku kicked Merged Zamasu with a Kaioken, meaning Goku's power was at least double at the time. And Merged Zamasu didn't see it coming giving his 'What?' reaction.

This is more of a case of fans thinking Vegito in the Buu Saga was much stronger than he actually was and people underestimating Merged Zamasu since he was too arrogant to dodge crap and kept dropping his guard like Future Zamasu.

He's apparently too arrogant to win too as twice in a row he was defeated in beam struggles where he was clearly putting a lot of effort in, we all know if Frieza got in a beam struggle with Nail he would be defeated easily. And then Zamasu started getting wrecked by Goku who was already really exhausted from pushing his ball back, I wonder why Cell didn't get demolished by Vegeta after he got half his body blown off, after all, he too got arrogant and didn't bother to dodge. Goku only used Kaioken for his last attack, before that it was all his own power. Also, Frieza was surprised by Goku's Kaioken as well, but ultimately it did absolutely nothing to him. I doubt Merged Zamasu was even 2x stronger than the heroes as that's larger than the gap SSJ2 Gohan had against FP Perfect Cell and he dominated him easily despite his arrogance.

[Legion]

Beerus just wanted to have fun with Goku ssjg. Beerus vs "base" Goku was just a filler, but in that scene was holding back and he did not want to be recognized.

Filler isn't the word you're looking for since it happened in both the movie and Super.

Lol my bad. I thought the he mean base Goku vs Beerus/Monaka.

[HeroR]

He's apparently too arrogant to win too as twice in a row he was defeated in beam struggles where he was clearly putting a lot of effort in, we all know if Frieza got in a beam struggle with Nail he would be defeated easily. And then Zamasu started getting wrecked by Goku who was already really exhausted from pushing his ball back, I wonder why Cell didn't get demolished by Vegeta after he got half his body blown off, after all, he too got arrogant and didn't bother to dodge. Goku only used Kaioken for his last attack, before that it was all his own power. Also, Frieza was surprised by Goku's Kaioken as well, but ultimately it did absolutely nothing to him. I doubt Merged Zamasu was even 2x stronger than the heroes as that's larger than the gap SSJ2 Gohan had against FP Perfect Cell and he dominated him easily despite his arrogance.

Yeah, Merged Zamasu is an arrogant SOB. We clearly saw that he didn't bother to try to go to full power until Goku melted half of his face. Before then, he was more than happy to just float there acting as a Final Fantasy boss. And Zamasu got wrecked by Goku because he was clearly stun, or did you miss his 'WTF' face. As soon as he recovered, he grabbed Goku's leg and broke it with ease. Goku had to used his Kaioken to break free and break his halo. Plus, Goku literally overclocked himself to himself to push back Merged Zamasu's attack, which is why his arms were broken.

Cell would have died if he didn't have Piccolo's cells and Freeza's high endurance, so I am not sure what point you're trying to make and Nail didn't power dump Freeza either. The Freeza example doesn't work either because Merged Zamasu wasn't mortally hurt by Goku. He got hurt and couldn't heal from it.

Saying Merged Zamasu is only 2x stronger than Goku and Vegeta is just silly, since both of the Supreme Kais said that Merged Zamasu wasn't just Black + Future Zamasu.

Lol my bad. I thought the he mean base Goku vs Beerus/Monaka.

Even if we're talking about the Goku vs Beerus/Monaka fight, it wouldn't be filler in the way filler is used in the anime world. It's called a breather episode.

[TheUltimateNinja]

He's apparently too arrogant to win too as twice in a row he was defeated in beam struggles where he was clearly putting a lot of effort in, we all know if Frieza got in a beam struggle with Nail he would be defeated easily. And then Zamasu started getting wrecked by Goku who was already really exhausted from pushing his ball back, I wonder why Cell didn't get demolished by Vegeta after he got half his body blown off, after all, he too got arrogant and didn't bother to dodge. Goku only used Kaioken for his last attack, before that it was all his own power. Also, Frieza was surprised by Goku's Kaioken as well, but ultimately it did absolutely nothing to him. I doubt Merged Zamasu was even 2x stronger than the heroes as that's larger than the gap SSJ2 Gohan had against FP Perfect Cell and he dominated him easily despite his arrogance.

Yeah, Merged Zamasu is an arrogant SOB. We clearly saw that he didn't bother to try to go to full power until Goku melted half of his face. Before then, he was more than happy to just float there acting as a Final Fantasy boss. And Zamasu got wrecked by Goku because he was clearly stun, or did you miss his 'WTF' face. As soon as he recovered, he grabbed Goku's leg and broke it with ease. Goku had to used his Kaioken to break free and break his halo. Plus, Goku literally overclocked himself to himself to push back Merged Zamasu's attack, which is why his arms were broken.

Cell would have died if he didn't have Piccolo's cells and Freeza's high endurance, so I am not sure what point you're trying to make and Nail didn't power dump Freeza either. The Freeza example doesn't work either because Merged Zamasu wasn't mortally hurt by Goku. He got hurt and couldn't heal from it.

Saying Merged Zamasu is only 2x stronger than Goku and Vegeta is just silly, since both of the Supreme Kais said that Merged Zamasu wasn't just Black + Future Zamasu.

Frieza was incredibly arrogant as well, but despite being shocked by Kaioken x20 Goku's power he easily stopped his Kamehameha with one hand. The point I'm trying to make with Cell is that much like Zamasu, Cell was shocked Vegeta was able to damage him like that, yet Vegeta still couldn't do shit after his Final Flash. And I'm not saying Merged Zamasu is simply Black + Zamasu, I'm saying the fusion multiplier is really small, something like 1.5x or so.