Is it time GT gets recognized as an alternate timeline rather than just "not canon?"

[sintzu]

Because canon is by definition determined by some official body.

It's easier to write personal canon instead of personal preference.

[ABED]

It's easier to write personal canon instead of personal preference.

And? It's clearer and correct to write "personal preference."

[ekrolo2]

GT was always an alternate continuity as it was based on the Z-anime and a few of the movies rather than the manga and all of those are alternate continuities from the DB manga.

Just because Z adapted the manga doesn't make it part of the same continuity as the manga, the last chunk of their respective Boo arcs cannot co-exist in the same universe as one another.

[Alruneia]

End of Z would be also an alternate timeline because I don't remember Pan being able to fly. Tho I've only seen it once so maybe she did. Either way, Baby Pan in DB Super seems stronger than EoZ Pan and GT Pan even though she's only like 1 years old.

Pan's first appearance in EoZ is her returning to Goku after flying around the planet.
She's also shown to be able to smack Base Goten pretty hard. While I do think he was caught off guard (he looks surprised enough), it's still very telling of her EoZ power. Pan isn't weaker than in Super.

[precita]

Man, they were already turning Goten into the next Yamcha by the end of DBZ, in addition to Gohan being the next Yamcha.

Why do Goku's sons always turn into Yamcha when they get older?

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Man, they were already turning Goten into the next Yamcha by the end of DBZ, in addition to Gohan being the next Yamcha.

Why do Goku's sons always turn into Yamcha when they get older?

Goku slowly absorbs their life's energy. Kind of like Ash does to his Pokemon buddies.

[TheGreatness25]

I think it's quite depressing that it took so much time (assuming it will happen) for fans to see it this way, since it's actually the only logical and correct way of seeing it and the ridiculous "canon" concept has never made any sense whatsoever, and the true reason it exists is to impose certain fans' subjective preferences onto others. (I don't like DBGT so I'm going to pretend it's not real and so will you)

All official stories (and even unofficial ones, because why not?) should be seen as "real", and if something can't fit in one/main universe/timeline then all it means is it takes place in a different one.

In reality DB officially began being a multiverse with DB Movie 1, where the story diverges into a different timeline. It doesn't have to be mentioned "hey, dummy, you're seeing an alternate universe"; whenever we're witnessing an event that is in contradiction to what was previously established, the logical conclusion is that this is taking place in an alternate universe, not that "it didn't happen".

I loved this post, but I have to point something out about the alternate timeline thing. Yes, it was always clear that the movies took place in an alternate timeline. They were always advertised as such. It was quite obvious that the movies didn't belong in the actual timeline that the series followed.

GT was different. GT was advertised as the sequel to Z, and that's where all of the issues come in. Whether you like GT or not, since 1997, Toei has pushed the idea that GT was the official sequel and that the events in GT happen in the main timeline after Z. Thus, the company that pumped out the anime was basically saying: "This is 'real' and official." The only fans who categorized GT as occurring in an alternate timeline were those that didn't like the series (a very poor argument) and those that followed the manga's canon (a very strong argument).

Then when the GT Dragon Box came out, Toriyama wrote that it was a "side story," which wasn't revealing anything new to the fans in the manga canon camp, but gave everyone else an excuse to categorize GT as happening in an alternate timeline.

However, if you've never read the manga and are using the anime's canon, GT was still an official sequel. That is, until 2013 -- a whopping 16 years after GT -- where GT's parent (Toei) basically showed that GT was just this side story.

There is a huge issue now regarding GT fans. It's not about an alternate timeline anymore because Super established its own alternate timelines. Super came out and said that there were alternate timelines. So now the issue isn't whether GT is an alternate timeline to us fans, but rather if GT happens in one of the alternate timelines that Super established. If there are 12 alternate timelines and GT doesn't fit into any of them, then GT might as well be forgotten about. But if GT does happen in one of Super's alternate timelines, then there is hope to do something with it and at least GT's fans can get some appeasement (even if it's pretty patronizing).

So to summarize: We all know by now that GT takes place in an alternate timeline; the question is if it takes place in an alternate timeline that is recognized by the story.

[precita]

Even prior to Super, GT fans always had to be told it was "not canon" simply because it wasn't written in the manga and Toriyama didn't write it. This is not some new thing.

[Cipher]

There is a huge issue now regarding GT fans. It's not about an alternate timeline anymore because Super established its own alternate timelines. Super came out and said that there were alternate timelines. So now the issue isn't whether GT is an alternate timeline to us fans, but rather if GT happens in one of the alternate timelines that Super established. If there are 12 alternate timelines and GT doesn't fit into any of them, then GT might as well be forgotten about. But if GT does happen in one of Super's alternate timelines, then there is hope to do something with it and at least GT's fans can get some appeasement (even if it's pretty patronizing).

I'm a GT fan and I couldn't care less whether it ever receives an in-universe connection to other continuations. In fact, I'd rather it not be shorehorned in as another timeline, because the series already has a relatively consistent portrayal of what causes splinter timelines within particular versions of the story that attributing GT to a split wouldn't align with. It's actually messier than it's worth. And that's without even getting into the fact that GT isn't just a split from the manga at the end of the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. It draws from anime-only elements from the original run throughout. So are you going to say the original anime trilogy is a different in-universe timeline from the manga? What's the point?

GT is just a different story, in the same way the anime and manga versions of Super are different stories, the original anime slightly different from the manga and Kai, etc.

Maybe one day Shueisha/Toei will lay out an all-inclusive meta-universe of some kind, but I'm not exactly clamoring for one.

[ZodaEX]

There is a huge issue now regarding GT fans. It's not about an alternate timeline anymore because Super established its own alternate timelines. Super came out and said that there were alternate timelines. So now the issue isn't whether GT is an alternate timeline to us fans, but rather if GT happens in one of the alternate timelines that Super established. If there are 12 alternate timelines and GT doesn't fit into any of them, then GT might as well be forgotten about. But if GT does happen in one of Super's alternate timelines, then there is hope to do something with it and at least GT's fans can get some appeasement (even if it's pretty patronizing).

I'm a GT fan and I couldn't care less whether it ever receives an in-universe connection to other continuations. In fact, I'd rather it not be shorehorned in as another timeline, because the series already has a relatively consistent portrayal of what causes splinter timelines within particular versions of the story that attributing GT to a split wouldn't align with. It's actually messier than it's worth. And that's without even getting into the fact that GT isn't just a split from the manga at the end of the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. It draws from anime-only elements from the original run throughout. So are you going to say the original anime trilogy is a different in-universe timeline from the manga? What's the point?

GT is just a different story, in the same way the anime and manga versions of Super are different stories, the original anime slightly different from the manga and Kai, etc.

Maybe one day Shueisha/Toei will lay out an all-inclusive meta-universe of some kind, but I'm not exactly clamoring for one.

The point is to clear up confusion when GT references elements that were anime-only and therefore would confuse folks who only read the manga.

[kinisking]

I think it's quite depressing that it took so much time (assuming it will happen) for fans to see it this way, since it's actually the only logical and correct way of seeing it and the ridiculous "canon" concept has never made any sense whatsoever, and the true reason it exists is to impose certain fans' subjective preferences onto others. (I don't like DBGT so I'm going to pretend it's not real and so will you)

All official stories (and even unofficial ones, because why not?) should be seen as "real", and if something can't fit in one/main universe/timeline then all it means is it takes place in a different one.

In reality DB officially began being a multiverse with DB Movie 1, where the story diverges into a different timeline. It doesn't have to be mentioned "hey, dummy, you're seeing an alternate universe"; whenever we're witnessing an event that is in contradiction to what was previously established, the logical conclusion is that this is taking place in an alternate universe, not that "it didn't happen".

Non-canon or Canon matter when discussing a characters personality and power levels. Filler tends to be much more inconsistent with power levels and character personalities. It's not as simple as calling this filler as being an alternate time line sometimes.

[Anime Kitten]

The problem is not whether it's an alternate timeline (which can still be chalked up to "non-canon"); the problem is that people need to stop treating non-canon content as bad and dismissible. Just because something doesn't fit into the main timeline does not, by absolutely any means, make it bad. I've never understood that mindset.

[ABED]

The problem is not whether it's an alternate timeline (which can still be chalked up to "non-canon"); the problem is that people need to stop treating non-canon content as bad and dismissible. Just because something doesn't fit into the main timeline does not, by absolutely any means, make it bad. I've never understood that mindset.

Agreed, and this doesn't just apply to canon, it also applies to the issue of filler. Plenty of filler or standalone episodes are WAY better than the mythology episodes.

[TheGreatness25]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I would like some clarification on how GT is viewed by the main timeline. As I said before: Toei advertised it as the official sequel to the Dragon Ball series and I don't want to feel punished for actually buying into their crap. It's bad enough that it's being written off, but it's a whole other slap in the face when they don't even come out and either say "Yes, it exists in another timeline as described in Super," or "Nope, doesn't exist; thanks for the money, ciao."

As a fan, I have spent too much time and money on GT, and I feel like I deserve to know whether that collection of DVDs (singles, green bricks, and Dragon Box) occupying space in one of my closets, is at least salvageable, or if I can just pretend to have never seen it.

I've come to grips that GT just got shat on by everyone. I get that it's been beaten to the ground and assassinated. But for Toei not to come out and just give a simple answer to a very obvious, glaring question that many fans have, is kind of dickish. And while the GT haters -- the majority -- rejoice and pee on GT's badly-desecrated grave, I just want some closure on the entire series that I grew up believing to be the official continuation of Z, which is why I even watched it and gave it a chance and stuck up for it in the first place.


By the way, I have made posts that come off angry before, this isn't me angry. I'm just saying.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I fail to see how it matters either way. GT exists, no one can take it away. Why isn't that enough?

[TheGreatness25]

While it's nice for people to come out and say, "Well GT isn't really part of the franchise, but it's okay to like it," the fact is that nobody wants to feel like the series that they were always told was official, suddenly doesn't matter in the scheme of things. Who wants to like something that doesn't even exist? It's okay if you know that it's in another timeline going in, but it's not so much fun believing it's really a part of the series, only to be slapped with the contrary later on. I equate it to watching a 3 hour movie only to find out in the end that it was a dream. Like what a way to shit on it.

Saying "It's okay to like it even though the series has no stakes in it," is the equivalent of giving a trophie to someone who came in last -- it's patronizing.

Whatever, I shouldn't even care. Since Super came out and I've been holding off to watch it, I inadvertently distanced myself so far from Dragon Ball, that the GT discussions are the only thing that spark any sort of interest from me. Don't know why it's such a sore spot. Maybe I spent too many years trying to defend it.

[Cipher]

While it's nice for people to come out and say, "Well GT isn't really part of the franchise, but it's okay to like it," the fact is that nobody wants to feel like the series that they were always told was official, suddenly doesn't matter in the scheme of things. Who wants to like something that doesn't even exist?

No, I'm fine with it. It does exist. I have it on DVD. I could go watch it right now. I tell other people who like Dragon Ball to check it out all the time.

You're putting way to much stock into these word-of-god meta-decrees if it's affecting your enjoyment of a story that much.

Do you really need to be told, "Hey, there's a chance GT might be referenced in future story material!" to like it, or convince others to try it? Does that matter?

Movie 5 is never going to play into further core story content, and hasn't since its debut, yet people still watch it. The Mr. Robot episode? Probably never going to see it referenced again, but that doesn't take anything away from its appeal.

[TheGreatness25]

No, I'm fine with it. It does exist. I have it on DVD. I could go watch it right now. I tell other people who like Dragon Ball to check it out all the time.

You're putting way to much stock into these word-of-god meta-decrees if it's affecting your enjoyment of a story that much.

Do you really need to be told, "Hey, there's a chance GT might be referenced in future story material!" to like it, or convince others to try it? Does that matter?

Movie 5 is never going to play into further core story content, and hasn't since its debut, yet people still watch it. The Mr. Robot episode? Probably never going to see it referenced again, but that doesn't take anything away from its appeal.

That's not the point, though. How can I really invest any emotion into watching something (again, albeit) where I know that nothing in that series has any consequence on the "real" story?

[Cipher]

That's not the point, though. How can I really invest any emotion into watching something (again, albeit) where I know that nothing in that series has any consequence on the "real" story?

That's ... completely the point. What does having no consequence on the "real" story mean, practically? That it has no chance of being referenced by Super/other new material?

Why does that matter? GT caps itself off perfectly well and is there for anyone to enjoy or dislike on its own merits.

[TheGreatness25]

I guess I can't put words behind it. Maybe I'm just insulted that Toei spent 17 years selling GT to me and I bought into it; after spending so much time and money on GT, for Toei to basically wipe their ass with GT, it's upsetting. By not even coming out and giving a statement on it, I do feel that it's a middle finger to the fans who supported them by buying into GT. They really don't even have the balls to address it when it's such an obvious question that fans have? What happened to how proud they were of GT? I feel like I supported them and now it doesn't matter because they took my money and now have a whole new set of people to spend more money on their new stuff.

I'm not sure what the issue is with GT. I'm accepting that it take place in a different world. But why should it exist at all, though? Nothing will ever branch off of it. It will never be revisited. It was just this self-contained thing. I view the movies in the same way.

Again, I can't put my thoughts together on it; it's just something that I feel. Maybe I'm just upset that my childhood is being messed with. But it's okay, if I like it so much, I can go ahead and pop in the absurdly-expensive GT Dragon Box that I got and never watched.