"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

I'd actually like to make a comparison between how an asshole character can and can't work: Goku vs John Constantine.

Why does Constantine work? Because he's a total prick, he smokes, he cheats, he lies, he uses his friends & family to progress his goals or save his own ass and he's a cocky but shitty human being, why does this work with him and fail with Goku? Well, the storyline doesn't treat Constantine as a stand-up guy: everyone verbally and physically constantly reminds us that Constantine is a piece of shit excuse for a human being.

It doesn't glorify him, it doesn't portray him as anything other than what he is: an asshole. That's what makes it interesting, seeing this shitty person occasionally do good things in his own, usually messed up, scumbag way and seeing how he does or does not rationalize it with himself and keep going.

Goku isn't like this, especially in Super, Goku is CONSTANTLY looked up to as some stand-up guy and he's fucking not. Let's look at Old Kai, in Z? He constantly talks about how stupid and irresponsible Goku is when dealing with the Majin Boo situation, come Super? He calls him a stand up guy and praises him after he felt Goku try to rip the goddamn universe apart just for his own amusement.

Then we have the Black arc: he dicks around with Black for his own amusement again, even though he knows this guy has made Trunks' life miserable AND killed Bulma (don't tell me Goku wouldn't care, he cares enough to rage boost about a version of his dead family that doesn't exist anymore) and Trunks doesn't say anything about it. At. All. Hell, even Vegeta doesn't say anything about it, they just keep going as if Goku didn't just pull a total dick move, when he did, for completely selfish reasons.

That's what Goku gets on my goddamn nerves, the series tries to paint his actions as being perfectly fine but they're not: he's a selfish prick and no pulling of the wool over my eyes is gonna make me change my tune on that.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

A lot of people like to pretend that the main characters are jerks just because they get "in the moment" more often than they should. It's not like anyone (except for Vegeta) has intentionally and knowingly put their companions in danger.

The most blatant moment is when they refuse to prevent Dr.Gero from creating the Androids, just to test themselves. The characters are selfish and if you're selfish to the degree where you risk everyone's life, then you deserve to be called an asshole.

That was kind of dicky, but the idea of that scene was obviously just a result of Toriyama realizing that he has just wrote himself into a glaring plot-hole. How else could he have pushed the story along? Toriyama even acknowledged it, and poked fun because there was nothing else he could do without creating the shortest story arc in DB history. I'm not excusing it, but the hero's subtle maliciousness is hardly the point that should be taken from it. Better to criticize Toriyama's flawed writing methods.

[HeroR]

Goku is an asshole. C'mon. He's willing to let Freeza go knowing full well that he's going to make other lives miserable. He saves Vegetas life also knowing this this guy is an evil maniac just because he wants to fight him again. He never ends battles with villians as quickly as possible when he can. He barely spends any time with his kids even though he can fucking teleport. His life is focused too much on enjoying battle. I don't think much characters even compare to that besides for Vegeta. Yes they all have asshole tendencies but Vegeta and Goku take the cake.

Gohan refused to take a job because he would spend too little time with his daughter. Would goku refuse training from some new master if that meant he would spend less time with Goten?

Future Trunks definitely isn't an asshole.

Tien used to be an asshole but hasn't really showed any signs in a long time.

Piccolo gave the fight to Vegeta against Frost even though that meant he couldn't fight anymore. Would Vegeta have done the same?

Krillins been a good guy ever since he matured. Something Goku hasn't.

Yamcha is kind of an asshole sometimes but everyone ignores that because he's such a fucking loser so they'res more important things to make fun of.

He let Freeza go to full power because he wanted Freeza to know for certain that he was defeated. He wanted Freeza to know that his best couldn't beat a mere monkey. In this case, he was being cruel and King Kai noted how unusual this behavior is since he's being consumed by his Super Saiyan form.

He saves Vegeta, but also acknowledges that he's being selfish. And he vowed to kill Vegeta when the next meet. Also, Krillin could have easily ignored Goku. Wasn't like he was in any position to stop him, so the biggest asshole would be Krillin.

Goku likes to start slow to learn about his enemies. Some times like works like with Hit. Some times it doesn't, like with Black.

This seems to be a western thing since most of the eastern countries, as well as most of Europe, doesn't see Goku as a bad father, or see his lack of time with his kids as a bad thing. In fact, in Japan, they saw Goku as spoiling Gohan. Why do you think one of the plot point of Gohan's development was him getting over his spoilness and being a daddy's boy?

Enjoying a passion doesn't automatically make you an asshole.

Goku and Vegeta are only assholes by the standards of humans. Both of them are aliens. Even then, they don't even come off as assholes in their native country. Vegeta of all people was ranked as one of the best dads along with Goku.

Gohan spending time with his family is well and good, but since he neglected his training, he lets monsters like Freeza nuke the planet and got Piccolo killed. So he's irresponsible in a different way. Also, if he kept in shape during the Buu Saga, he would have flattened Dabura and stop Buu's revival before Vegeta sold his soul. And if you're going to hold Goku's Super Saiyan moment against him, what do you call what Super Saiyan 2 Gohan did. He nearly tortured someone to death instead of just killing them, which got his father and Trunks killed.

I'll give you Future Trunks, but he did put the world in danger because of his daddy issues. He could have killed Semi-Perfect Cell easily, but held back for the sake of his father's pride. The same father who sold him out, attacked him, and treated him like shit since he's introduction. Even then, he let Vegeta get beating to near death by Cell for the sake of his pride.

Tien is still an asshole since he wanted to fight the androids instead of stopping them early.

Piccolo also didn't want to stop the androids early and him bowing out to Frost means nothing since Magetta would have flattened him regardless. He knew where he stood and he bowed out.

Krillin smashed a remote Bulma spent days working on instead of shutting down Android 18. He also went along with fighting the androids instead of stopping them early.

So yes, just about all the Z-Fighters have asshole moments, with Gohan and Trunks being downright irresponsible. At least Trunks learned from his mistakes, while Gohan slacked off not once, but twice.

[LightBing]

That was kind of dicky, but the idea of that scene was obviously just a result of Toriyama realizing that he has just wrote himself into a glaring plot-hole. How else could he have pushed the story along? Toriyama even acknowledged it, and poked fun because there was nothing else he could do without creating the shortest story arc in DB history. I'm not excusing it, but the hero's subtle maliciousness is hardly the point that should be taken from it. Better to criticize Toriyama's flawed writing methods.

Couldn't disagree more, Mr.Toriyama just used the characters traits to stop the possible plot-hole. Goku had already spared Piccolo, Vegeta and Freeza. He's just continuing the tendency. Vegeta gave him the biggest beating of his life and was clearly much stronger than him, promising to return to kill everybody and still Goku spared him!

[Lord Beerus]

I'd actually like to make a comparison between how an asshole character can and can't work: Goku vs John Constantine.

Why does Constantine work? Because he's a total prick, he smokes, he cheats, he lies, he uses his friends & family to progress his goals or save his own ass and he's a cocky but shitty human being, why does this work with him and fail with Goku? Well, the storyline doesn't treat Constantine as a stand-up guy: everyone verbally and physically constantly reminds us that Constantine is a piece of shit excuse for a human being.

It doesn't glorify him, it doesn't portray him as anything other than what he is: an asshole. That's what makes it interesting, seeing this shitty person occasionally do good things in his own, usually messed up, scumbag way and seeing how he does or does not rationalize it with himself and keep going.

Goku isn't like this, especially in Super, Goku is CONSTANTLY looked up to as some stand-up guy and he's fucking not. Let's look at Old Kai, in Z? He constantly talks about how stupid and irresponsible Goku is when dealing with the Majin Boo situation, come Super? He calls him a stand up guy and praises him after he felt Goku try to rip the goddamn universe apart just for his own amusement.

Then we have the Black arc: he dicks around with Black for his own amusement again, even though he knows this guy has made Trunks' life miserable AND killed Bulma (don't tell me Goku wouldn't care, he cares enough to rage boost about a version of his dead family that doesn't exist anymore) and Trunks doesn't say anything about it. At. All. Hell, even Vegeta doesn't say anything about it, they just keep going as if Goku didn't just pull a total dick move, when he did, for completely selfish reasons.

That's what Goku gets on my goddamn nerves, the series tries to paint his actions as being perfectly fine but they're not: he's a selfish prick and no pulling of the wool over my eyes is gonna make me change my tune on that.

I don't think anyone in Super is really putting Goku on any kind of pedestal or portraying him as a stand-up guy, despite his action implying the contrary. I mean, I don't recall in any episode the cast praising Goku when he does something irresponsible. Unless of course I missed a throwaway line where they mention how this is how Goku always acts. Which could be interpreted as a "We know what he's doing is stupid, but he's always prone to doing something like that, so it's okay."

[kinisking]

He let Freeza go to full power because he wanted Freeza to know for certain that he was defeated. He wanted Freeza to know that his best couldn't beat a mere monkey. In this case, he was being cruel and King Kai noted how unusual this behavior is since he's being consumed by his Super Saiyan form.

He saves Vegeta, but also acknowledges that he's being selfish. And he vowed to kill Vegeta when the next meet. Also, Krillin could have easily ignored Goku. Wasn't like he was in any position to stop him, so the biggest asshole would be Krillin.

Goku likes to start slow to learn about his enemies. Some times like works like with Hit. Some times it doesn't, like with Black.

This seems to be a western thing since most of the eastern countries, as well as most of Europe, doesn't see Goku as a bad father, or see his lack of time with his kids as a bad thing. In fact, in Japan, they saw Goku as spoiling Gohan. Why do you think one of the plot point of Gohan's development was him getting over his spoilness and being a daddy's boy?

Enjoying a passion doesn't automatically make you an asshole.

Goku and Vegeta are only assholes by the standards of humans. Both of them are aliens. Even then, they don't even come off as assholes in their native country. Vegeta of all people was ranked as one of the best dads along with Goku.

Gohan spending time with his family is well and good, but since he neglected his training, he lets monsters like Freeza nuke the planet and got Piccolo killed. So he's irresponsible in a different way. Also, if he kept in shape during the Buu Saga, he would have flattened Dabura and stop Buu's revival before Vegeta sold his soul. And if you're going to hold Goku's Super Saiyan moment against him, what do you call what Super Saiyan 2 Gohan did. He nearly tortured someone to death instead of just killing them, which got his father and Trunks killed.

I'll give you Future Trunks, but he did put the world in danger because of his daddy issues. He could have killed Semi-Perfect Cell easily, but held back for the sake of his father's pride. The same father who sold him out, attacked him, and treated him like shit since he's introduction. Even then, he let Vegeta get beating to near death by Cell for the sake of his pride.

Tien is still an asshole since he wanted to fight the androids instead of stopping them early.

Piccolo also didn't want to stop the androids early and him bowing out to Frost means nothing since Magetta would have flattened him regardless. He knew where he stood and he bowed out.

Krillin smashed a remote Bulma spent days working on instead of shutting down Android 18. He also went along with fighting the androids instead of stopping them early.

So yes, just about all the Z-Fighters have asshole moments, with Gohan and Trunks being downright irresponsible. At least Trunks learned from his mistakes, while Gohan slacked off not once, but twice.

I never said anything about letting Freeza go to full power. I mean letting him live, which he did in both Z and tried to do in ROF.

How is Krillin a bigger asshole for listening to the wishes of the guy whos saved his life consistently? Stupid decision but doesn't make him an asshole.

Goku started off slow against Hit to learn. , but it's not something he consistently does. He never cited that as a reason against Boo or really anyone else.

It might be a cultural thing, but doesn't stop him being an asshole from a western perspective. So of course westerners are going to think he's an asshole.

Enjoying a passion doesn't but letting it consume your life can and usually does.

My opinions are formed from my culture. There have been cultures that treat women like shit, doesn't mean I think it's acceptsble.

I don't disagree with Gohan having asshole moments but at least everyone of them can be attributed to ignorance. Goku has moments where he knows he's making a wrong decision but does it anyways.

Piccolo and Tien were kind of assholes for doing that. You're right. Still, Goku's the worst.

Krillin had a good reason for letting them fight the androids. Vegeta could have went wild if it weren't for a common enemy. But he was stupid for destroying the remote.

I think I already acknowledged that they all have asshole moments ( if I didn't, my bad) but Goku and Vegeta are the worst out of them. I don't think that's debatable. Of course it's going to be criticized when he's the main character.

Gohan's more irresponsible than Trunks but thats irrelevant to the conversation

[TekTheNinja]

People say that Chi Chi is just a reasonable parent, but no. She legitimately believes that studies are more important than the fate of the universe first of all. She was cool in the Buu arc where it seemed she mellowed out a bit, but in Super she's downright insane. Also she if she doesn't want her husband to do martial arts all the time, don't marry a damn martial artist. That's basic shit.

[HeroR]

I never said anything about letting Freeza go to full power. I mean letting him live, which he did in both Z and tried to do in ROF.

How is Krillin a bigger asshole for listening to the wishes of the guy whos saved his life consistently? Stupid decision but doesn't make him an asshole.

Goku started off slow against Hit to learn. , but it's not something he consistently does. He never cited that as a reason against Boo or really anyone else.

It might be a cultural thing, but doesn't stop him being an asshole from a western perspective. So of course westerners are going to think he's an asshole.

Enjoying a passion doesn't but letting it consume your life can and usually does.

My opinions are formed from my culture. There have been cultures that treat women like shit, doesn't mean I think it's acceptsble.

I don't disagree with Gohan having asshole moments but at least everyone of them can be attributed to ignorance. Goku has moments where he knows he's making a wrong decision but does it anyways.

Piccolo and Tien were kind of assholes for doing that. You're right. Still, Goku's the worst.

Krillin had a good reason for letting them fight the androids. Vegeta could have went wild if it weren't for a common enemy. But he was stupid for destroying the remote.

I think I already acknowledged that they all have asshole moments ( if I didn't, my bad) but Goku and Vegeta are the worst out of them. I don't think that's debatable. Of course it's going to be criticized when he's the main character.

Gohan's more irresponsible than Trunks but thats irrelevant to the conversation

He let him live the first time out of cruel mercy. He wanted Freeza to suffer in his lost and thought death was letting him off easy. He also gave the same reason in the Super anime. It was only in the movie that let Freeza off so he can fight him again someday.

Krillin smashed something that took Bulma days to make. He could've just not used it instead of crushing it underfoot. So yes, he's an asshole.

He was playing decoy against Buu and in the anime he fought Kid Buu as a Super Saiyan 2 before jumping to 3. He also started slow against Cell and even Freeza. Goku being a slow started happens more times than him going all out from the jump. In fact, Piccolo notes that something was wrong with Goku when he fought Android 19 because he was going out all out too fast and being sloppy about it.

Still cultural, since Dragon Ball is made primary by a Japanese audience.

That can be said about most of the Z-Fighters. All Tien and Piccolo do is train.

They are still aliens, so they don't have humans standards.

Gohan wasn't ignorance. He chose not to train. The first time can be forgiving, but he did it again and regressed so much that he lost his Ultimate form. There is no excuse for this. He has a family now and should know that he needs to be ready physical for a threat. At the very least, he should have maintained his power. He also wasn't ignorance about Cell because Goku told him to kill Cell because he would get desperate. Gohan utterly ignored his father and went about torturing Cell with a smug look on his face. So he is an asshole who disobey his own father and it ended up getting his father and Trunks killed.

Krillin gave a reason, but he chose trying to be friends with Vegeta over the lives of millions. Especially since Goku could handle Vegeta at the time, so there was no pressing need to make Vegeta a friend. So yes, asshole.

How is Goku worst? At least Goku gave the 'well, he technically hasn't done anything wrong' before saying he wanted to fight the androids. Piccolo and Tien didn't even bother to give that. They just wanted to fight.

Goku is hardly the worst. Especially when I named several moments where the other characters did stuff just as bad if not worst than him. Goku also has the excuse of being an alien and doesn't have the same emotions and feelings as a human. What the other characters, except Piccolo, excuse. It's just easy to blame Goku for everything since he's the main character with the most screen time.

[TekTheNinja]

I agree that Goku should get told off for his stupid decisions more in Super. He got told off all the time in Z whether it be from future Trunks, Krillin, Piccolo, etc...

[KentalSSJ6]

Love how the manga makes these references

[ekrolo2]

Love how the manga makes these references

Wow, now that's obscure

[Ki Breaker]

Love how the manga makes these references

It comes with being the creation of a legitimate fan instead of a company..

[LightBing]

It comes with being the creation of a legitimate fan instead of a company..

But he works for a company therefore he represents them. And since the company hired him specifically they care about the work.

[Ki Breaker]

It comes with being the creation of a legitimate fan instead of a company..

But he works for a company therefore he represents them. And since the company hired him specifically they care about the work.

I am not saying the company dosent care about the work.. infact they try a lot to give us things like Galick gun..
I am saying a true fan knows much more than the company

[szopman]

I'm quiet sure that this kind of references comes directly from Toyatorou.
In his AF manga he also made maaaaany references, like for eg cameo of Janemba in Hell

[Ajay]

Love how the manga makes these references

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Oh my god, so that's what that was referencing. That has been driving me mad ever since I first saw it. It looked so familiar but I just couldn't place it.

[Alruneia]

Love how the manga makes these references
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Whoa! I'm amazed someone managed to catch a reference as obscure as that! That's really cool.

[Lord Beerus]

Love how the manga makes these references

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Holy crap, what a great shout out.

DBZ Movie 13 FTW!

[Sodhi]

Talk about a hardore fan of the franchise. Good Job toyotarou.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Love how the manga makes these references

Wow, now that's obscure

Wow, I didn't even notice! Toyotaro>Zeno. That cheeky, football-headed bastard never gave us any fun references!