Are power levels Bullshit?

[Dragonball Black]

a lot of youtubers are making these power levels videos, such as Expergamez. I honestly dont have a problem with gauging the power levels themselves but I see 2 things wrong with this formula. To an extent, Super demonstrates that is doesnt want to rely on power levels like Z did. Vegeta at Super Saiyan 2 gave it all he had against Kid Buu, and even though he got some good hits in. He was eventually overwhelmed. In Super Trunks gave it all he had and went toe to toe for a little bit against Super Saiyan Rose and even matched Super Saiyan 3. So I think that Super is taking into affect a mixture of power levels and circumstances of the battlefield and each individual fighter. The second this is that these power level videos gauge the forms from Z to lowley. Tied in to the first problem, Trunks seems to have a SS2 as Strong as SS3, and a SS2 that can fight against SSRose witch is ment to be stronger slightly than Super Saiyan Blue. So These are the two problems I have with this system. Its an archaic one that we brought with us from Z that eventually made everything stale because the only real good fighters were the saiyans. Super is more about what can happen during the fight, like Hit taking out Super Saiyn Blue Vegeta and a blaster gun taking out Goku. Anybody can take these guys out if they let their guard down with the exception of beerus. What do you guys think?

[Abra kadabra]

Trunks as SSJ2 only traded blows with Rose Black once and that was after a rage boost. He mostly fought future zamasu and left black to goku. People need to pay attention to what they're watching and stop bringing this up. No offence.

[The Monkey King]

In the manga they were pretty consistent and straight forward.

Dragon Ball Super (the Trunks arc especially) and its piss poor writing has absolutely obliterated any semblance of power level logic.

So as of now yes they are.

[rereboy]

In the manga they were pretty consistent and straight forward.

Dragon Ball Super (the Trunks arc especially) and its piss poor writing has absolutely obliterated any semblance of power level logic.

So as of now yes they are.

That's pretty much it.

[Akyon]

Yes.

...and I for one am happy about it. Now the story can be driven by narrative rather than mathmatical arbitrary statistics. Trunks being the one to put an end to Zamasu's physical form made far more narrative sense than Vegetto doing it. Trunks had the biggest stakes. Trunks had been tortured the most by Zamasu's reign, not Goku nor Vegeta. Him being the one to put a stop to Merged Zamasu was a great moment to anyone not concerned with cold numbers. Shame Zamasu is tenacious and undid that victory in the following episode, but can't have it all.

This seems to be a pretty unpopular view amongst the DBZ community, and honestly it feels like PLs seem to be the be all and end all to a lot of fans. Honestly the moment you realise PLs are BS, is the moment you'll enjoy things more.

[SaiyanZ]

In the manga they were pretty consistent and straight forward.

Dragon Ball Super (the Trunks arc especially) and its piss poor writing has absolutely obliterated any semblance of power level logic.

So as of now yes they are.

That's pretty much it.

This x100

[rereboy]

Yes.

...and I for one am happy about it. Now the story can be driven by narrative rather than mathmatical arbitrary statistics. Trunks being the one to put an end to Zamasu's physical form made far more narrative sense than Vegetto doing it. Trunks had the biggest stakes. Trunks had been tortured the most by Zamasu's reign, not Goku nor Vegeta. Him being the one to put a stop to Merged Zamasu was a great moment to anyone not concerned with cold numbers. Shame Zamasu is tenacious and undid that victory in the following episode, but can't have it all.

This seems to be a pretty unpopular view amongst the DBZ community, and honestly it feels like PLs seem to be the be all and end all to a lot of fans. Honestly the moment you realise PLs are BS, is the moment you'll enjoy things more.

Power consistency goes way beyond power levels.

If, in the Harry Potter franchise, Ron Weasley was suddenly more powerful and skilled than Snape, with no proper justification, it would be a problem, and there are no power levels in Harry Potter. Why? Because it's about power consistency, and in a broader sense, plot consistency.

That's the issue in Super. There's problems in power consistency.

[Abra kadabra]

Yes.

...and I for one am happy about it. Now the story can be driven by narrative rather than mathmatical arbitrary statistics. Trunks being the one to put an end to Zamasu's physical form made far more narrative sense than Vegetto doing it. Trunks had the biggest stakes. Trunks had been tortured the most by Zamasu's reign, not Goku nor Vegeta. Him being the one to put a stop to Merged Zamasu was a great moment to anyone not concerned with cold numbers. Shame Zamasu is tenacious and undid that victory in the following episode, but can't have it all.

This seems to be a pretty unpopular view amongst the DBZ community, and honestly it feels like PLs seem to be the be all and end all to a lot of fans. Honestly the moment you realise PLs are BS, is the moment you'll enjoy things more.

Power consistency goes way beyond power levels.

If, in the Harry Potter franchise, Ron Weasley was suddenly more powerful and skilled than Snape, with no proper justification, it would be a problem, and there are no power levels in Harry Potter. Why? Because it's about power consistency, and in a broader sense, plot consistency.

That's the issue in Super. There's problems in power consistency.

Swap Ron Wensley for Harry Potter and you have Harry Potter.

[Akyon]

Yes.

...and I for one am happy about it. Now the story can be driven by narrative rather than mathmatical arbitrary statistics. Trunks being the one to put an end to Zamasu's physical form made far more narrative sense than Vegetto doing it. Trunks had the biggest stakes. Trunks had been tortured the most by Zamasu's reign, not Goku nor Vegeta. Him being the one to put a stop to Merged Zamasu was a great moment to anyone not concerned with cold numbers. Shame Zamasu is tenacious and undid that victory in the following episode, but can't have it all.

This seems to be a pretty unpopular view amongst the DBZ community, and honestly it feels like PLs seem to be the be all and end all to a lot of fans. Honestly the moment you realise PLs are BS, is the moment you'll enjoy things more.

Power consistency goes way beyond power levels.

If, in the Harry Potter franchise, Ron Weasley was suddenly more powerful and skilled than Snape, with no proper justification, it would be a problem, and there are no power levels in Harry Potter. Why? Because it's about power consistency, and in a broader sense, plot consistency.

That's the issue in Super. There's problems in power consistency.

I think I understand your point rereboy; Snape has had more time dedicated to learning and practicing magic? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

That works well in theory, but it's not what's really happened in Dragonball; Otherwise Roshi would be the strongest human by far having practiced ki control for far longer.

Piccolo suddenly went from weaker than Nappa to being on par with second form Frieza in an incredibly short time and the justification for it was meditating around on King Kai's planet for an incredibly short time and then fusing with a half dead Namekian warrior who was mid Ginyu Force level at best. The power consistency may have been somewhat kept but for plot consistency it's flaky at best.

[omaro34]

I rarely post on the power leve thread for a reason, because its pointless. As someone else already pointed out, this Trunks Arc literally defied logic in every sense of the word when it comes to power levels.

Future Trunks went from Super Saiyan 2 level, getting beat by SSj3 Goku, and by the end of the arc he's definitely God level, possibly stronger than Goku & Vegeta.

[ABED]

Swap Ron Wensley for Harry Potter and you have Harry Potter.

I think prodigious talent falls under the category of proper justification.

[Saikyo no Senshi]

Yes. Battle powers were, are and will always be bullshit. I also find it silly that people get upset over battle power consistency in a kids cartoon. But, whatever different people different interests I guess.

To me, battle powers are the least interesting thing about a show and I couldn't care less if it makes sense or not.
If Trunks were to magically roflstomp Zen'ou in the next story arc and it is told interestingly, is entertaining visually, has good music and voice acting with engaging sound-effects I won't give a flying fuck of why or how it doesn't make sense for Trunks to become so strong all of a sudden. Entertainment > Battle power consistency.

[ABED]

I don't like handwaving these sorts of things away because "it's just a kids show." I don't think power levels need to be so precise and nailed down on a numerical level but I do expect logical consistency in stories, not because I'm anal, but because lack of logic hurts my ability to enjoy something. It's one reason the last DBZ movie bugged me.

[DonAce]

Of course putting a numerical value on someone's battle power isn't very helpful nor is it particularly interesting. There are times when somebody being much more powerful than they can reasonably be expected to be at some point can take you right out of the story, of course, but aside from that it's not something that I am all that into caring or thinking about. Although, this is a series that features a lot of combat so it's going to attract a lot of people who are really into gauging just how strong certain characters are and whether or not they can defeat other characters. It's a bit like a shonen anime equivalent of fantasy football

[dbs fanboy]

I rarely post on the power leve thread for a reason, because its pointless. As someone else already pointed out, this Trunks Arc literally defied logic in every sense of the word when it comes to power levels.

Future Trunks went from Super Saiyan 2 level, getting beat by SSj3 Goku, and by the end of the arc he's definitely God level, possibly stronger than Goku & Vegeta.

This has raised a question, in dbs (anime), Goku'sregular super saiyan form is already stronger than his previous ssj 3 form, and his base form is pretty strong as well, so in which level was Trunks in ep 49?

I mean, he would be much stronger than a regular ssj 2 level that's for sure.

[WittyUsername]

In light of the past few arcs of Super, it's safe to say that any hope for consistency in power levels has pretty much been thrown out the window. By this point, it's clear that the protagonists (and the antagonists to a degree) are as strong as they need to be, whenever it's convenient to the story.

We already sort of saw that with some of the power-ups in the Freeza arc, but it's pretty definitive by this point. Incidentally, this also invalidates one of the big complaints people had with GT.

[TheMikado]

Yes.

...and I for one am happy about it. Now the story can be driven by narrative rather than mathmatical arbitrary statistics. Trunks being the one to put an end to Zamasu's physical form made far more narrative sense than Vegetto doing it. Trunks had the biggest stakes. Trunks had been tortured the most by Zamasu's reign, not Goku nor Vegeta. Him being the one to put a stop to Merged Zamasu was a great moment to anyone not concerned with cold numbers. Shame Zamasu is tenacious and undid that victory in the following episode, but can't have it all.

This seems to be a pretty unpopular view amongst the DBZ community, and honestly it feels like PLs seem to be the be all and end all to a lot of fans. Honestly the moment you realise PLs are BS, is the moment you'll enjoy things more.

Power consistency goes way beyond power levels.

If, in the Harry Potter franchise, Ron Weasley was suddenly more powerful and skilled than Snape, with no proper justification, it would be a problem, and there are no power levels in Harry Potter. Why? Because it's about power consistency, and in a broader sense, plot consistency.

That's the issue in Super. There's problems in power consistency.

I think I understand your point rereboy; Snape has had more time dedicated to learning and practicing magic? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

That works well in theory, but it's not what's really happened in Dragonball; Otherwise Roshi would be the strongest human by far having practiced ki control for far longer.

Piccolo suddenly went from weaker than Nappa to being on par with second form Frieza in an incredibly short time and the justification for it was meditating around on King Kai's planet for an incredibly short time and then fusing with a half dead Namekian warrior who was mid Ginyu Force level at best. The power consistency may have been somewhat kept but for plot consistency it's flaky at best.

Finally someone gets its. Power levels DRIVE the plot in a show THEMED around POWER. No power levels, no plot, no story. You wouldn't accept a romance story as good with unrealistic and nonsensical relationships..

Anyway the whole Z power level scaling is bad thing is BS. Every time someone massively increases in power there was a clear and recognized plot device and mechanism. The original Dragonball was excellent in both foreshadowing and deliver. Even the examples you use of Piccolo fusing, something that was foreshadowed as a possible ability as early as the Dragonball series, came with great sacrifice and explanation and it STILL wasn't a trump card. It gave an incredible boost in addition to the boost from King Kai but not enough to overwhelm the plot. We actually see the same exact thing in the Cell arc with Piccolo and it still didn't let him beat Cell. This is GOOD powerscaling. Trunks being not only stronger than a SSG with no explanation but then getting close to or around SSB levels somehow with literally no explanation given is unreal. An equivalent would be Han Solo getting super mad and suddenly force choking the crap out of Darth Vader... Does that look and sound cool? Sure. Is it good writing? Nope just elementary school level fan fiction.

[rereboy]

I think I understand your point rereboy; Snape has had more time dedicated to learning and practicing magic? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Snape is consistently shown to be one of the most gifted and knowledgeable wizards in the franchise, capable of fooling the main villain's mind-reading for years, and with an incredible experience and arsenal. Ron Weasley on the other hand is consistently shown to be an average wizard in term of skill and power. If Ron was suddenly on Snape's level without a very good explanation, it would be very bad.

That works well in theory, but it's not what's really happened in Dragonball; Otherwise Roshi would be the strongest human by far having practiced ki control for far longer.

Piccolo suddenly went from weaker than Nappa to being on par with second form Frieza in an incredibly short time and the justification for it was meditating around on King Kai's planet for an incredibly short time and then fusing with a half dead Namekian warrior who was mid Ginyu Force level at best. The power consistency may have been somewhat kept but for plot consistency it's flaky at best.

My example is not meant to fully translate to Super. It's just meant to clearly demonstrate how power consistency is so much more than power levels, and how it's, in fact, on some level, an aspect of plot consistency. And in this regard Super is so much worse than the manga.

[Luso Saiyan]

BS? No. Irrelevant? Definitely. Just like scouters.

[ABED]

It would likely take more energy than it's worth to care so much about the numbers, but for someone like me that likes minutia, I'm a fan of those sorts of things, including precise timelines. I appreciated that Young Justice told the audience what day it was.