Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

If people can accept that Tagoma got so strong in 4 months then why can't Trunks have got so strong in 10 years?

Because he trained a bunch after killing the androids, then trained a bunch with Kaioshin which he specifically credits with making him much stronger than he otherwise would have been, and he's still weaker than Dabra.

Also, the old Piccolo issue.

Also, the implication that "our" Zamasu was randomly tens of thousands of times stronger than all the other Kaioshin even before the events of this arc.

Whole thing just seems like it would make far more sense if the base saiyans were roughly as powerful as they were rather than being made x1000 more powerful for no reason.

[HeroR]

HeroR, u have a link/scan when Freeza says he can feel Gokus Ki? Because I dont remember Freeza saying he could sense Goku Ki. I only remember Whis saying Frieza got strong enough to fight with someone with God Ki.

Do u see Trunks(before "training with Vegeta") below Raged Vegeta?


Ultimate Ninja, thanks for the clarification. It makes Hit live to the hype of Legendary Assasin. Basically to defeat Hit, u have to outhax him(Champa has his hakai ability and Goku did it for a bit with KKX10).

Freeza said he could sense Goku's God form in the episode he turned gold.

It's hard to pine point where Trunks fall, especially since the only reference we have for Rage Vegeta is that he's stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku before he absorbed God ki. It's only certain that his base form wasn't as strong as Goku or Vegeta's base form because he can't sense God ki.

Also, it was never said Hit got physically stronger. In fact, several characters note that Hit's power didn't increase. His time skip only improved. Goku said nothing about Hit's attacks hurting more.

[Bullza]

Hit is also much stronger than SSBlue in the anime.

Nah in terms of raw power he was weaker. That's why Goku urged him to use the time skip which he did. His time skip allows him to fight against those much more powerful than himself but physically he's inferior to Super Saiyan Blue and would be considerably below Black.

Because he trained a bunch after killing the androids, then trained a bunch with Kaioshin which he specifically credits with making him much stronger than he otherwise would have been, and he's still weaker than Dabra.

And then after Dabura he powered up to the point he's comparable to SSJ2 Goku whose enormously more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Zamasu is tens of thousands of times more powerful than any of the previous Supreme Kai's for the same reason why Cabba was tens of thousands of times more powerful than any of the previous Saiyans, it's for the sake of the plot aswell.

Zamasu was a main villain and it called for him to fight against the current Goku but not get instantly stomped as that wouldn't be entertaining in any way.

Piccolo isn't God level but held up against Frost for an entire episode because him being tapped in the head and falling unconscious in seconds is something nobody would have wanted to see. That's not entertaining.

The manga does make more sense because he never absorbed the power of God but he did in the anime so they've had to boost everyone up so the story is still largely similar.

[HeroR]

Hit is also much stronger than SSBlue in the anime.

Nah in terms of raw power he was weaker. That's why Goku urged him to use the time skip which he did. His time skip allows him to fight against those much more powerful than himself but physically he's inferior to Super Saiyan Blue and would be considerably below Black.

Because he trained a bunch after killing the androids, then trained a bunch with Kaioshin which he specifically credits with making him much stronger than he otherwise would have been, and he's still weaker than Dabra.

And then after Dabura he powered up to the point he's comparable to SSJ2 Goku whose enormously more powerful than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Zamasu is tens of thousands of times more powerful than any of the previous Supreme Kai's for the same reason why Cabba was tens of thousands of times more powerful than any of the previous Saiyans, it's for the sake of the plot aswell.

Zamasu was a main villain and it called for him to fight against the current Goku but not get instantly stomped as that wouldn't be entertaining in any way.

Piccolo isn't God level but held up against Frost for an entire episode because him being tapped in the head and falling unconscious in seconds is something nobody would have wanted to see. That's not entertaining.

The manga does make more sense because he never absorbed the power of God but he did in the anime so they've had to boost everyone up so the story is still largely similar.

Trunks was never capable with Super Saiyan 2 Goku, who did nothing but block. I am not sure why you keep pushing this when Trunks couldn't even sense God ki.

[perucho1990]

Piccolo got far stronger than his FnF self due to training 6 months with Gohan(who looks to have regained his mystic form), before the Androids Saga, Piccolo(prekami fusion) was SSJ level due to training with a SSJ in Goku.

Given the logic here, Piccolo was at least Mystic Gohan level and Frost was wounded after fighting Goku.

Trunks reaching SSJB level because of "training with Vegeta" was kinda expected again when u saw Tagoma reaching Buu Saga SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta level via "training" with Frieza.

[Bullza]

He was able to push him back while he had his guard up as was said by Kid Trunks. He wasn't even using his full power at the time. On the other hand SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't move Base Copy Vegeta who was just standing there with his arms at his side. He received Beerus and Goku's compliments.

In the manga, regardless of them being at a lesser level, he still compared to Goku's Super Saiyan forms just the same so that would have been what was written in Toriyama's plot outline.

He was at a high enough level to hold his own against Black for a short period. Was capable of keeping track of Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's moves and was able to dodge and withstand attacks from him without losing consciousness unlike Super Saiyan Cabba who was said to be comparable to Vegeta.

After going back into the future he was able to fend off SSJR Black never mind track him and get the upper hand over Zamasu who could tangle with Blue Goku.

He's definitely comparable to Goku. That Goku would have to turn SSJ2 or would have to block in the first place says it all really. So how anyone can say otherwise is very odd.

He couldn't sense God Ki because he wasn't a God. After he obtained his new form and acquired God Ki for himself he could now sense it.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo got far stronger than his FnF self due to training 6 months with Gohan(who looks to have regained his mystic form), before the Androids Saga, Piccolo(prekami fusion) was SSJ level due to training with a SSJ in Goku.

Given the logic here, Piccolo was at least Mystic Gohan level and Frost was wounded after fighting Goku.

On this, did they ever clarify what the hell was up with Gohan's forms and how he seemed to be about as powerful as Piccolo? Because that spar with Gohan taken in line with everything else implies that their bases were roughly Ultimate Gohan level.

[Bullza]

No they never did. That's always been odd. In Battle of Gods they said Goku couldn't beat Frieza without transforming and then in Resurrection F it was implied that Base Gohan was the strongest Z Fighter so above Piccolo which was further shown in the arc.

Fan reasoning is that Base Gohan was so strong because he still had some of the Mystic power left in him and turning Super Saiyan unlocks it all.

It makes sense I guess but I can't see Toriyama thinking up something like that. So it could have been some big inconsistency problem. Maybe Base Goku never was weaker than Frieza. Maybe Piccolo got nerfed.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Hit is also much stronger than SSBlue in the anime.

Yes and No.

Hit actually isn't that strong comparatively . He just has an incredibly hacked ability which allows him to keep up. Without his Time Skip I doubt Hit could beat someone like Buu.

Hit would one-shot Buu. He's capable of dealing damage to SSBlue Kkx10 Goku who is hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than Buu.

He did his damage by hitting pressure points which Buu doesn't have. I think even Goku said Hit doesnt actually hit all that hard...its the location and abruptness of it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Yes and No.

Hit actually isn't that strong comparatively . He just has an incredibly hacked ability which allows him to keep up. Without his Time Skip I doubt Hit could beat someone like Buu.

Hit would one-shot Buu. He's capable of dealing damage to SSBlue Kkx10 Goku who is hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than Buu.

He did his damage by hitting pressure points which Buu doesn't have. I think even Goku said Hit doesnt actually hit all that hard...its the location and abruptness of it.

Goku said Hit's powered up attacks hurt a lot, and this was when he was using Kaioken x10.

[Smilodon]

Hit would one-shot Buu. He's capable of dealing damage to SSBlue Kkx10 Goku who is hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than Buu.

But Hit doesn't have Ki blasts. He could punch him, but it's not enough to defeat Boo. He possibly doesn't have any weak points, and the only way to eliminate him is to destroy all of his atoms.
But Hit is much faster and powerful than Boo, so he could punish him a lot...Defeat? I really don't know how.

[perucho1990]

On this, did they ever clarify what the hell was up with Gohan's forms and how he seemed to be about as powerful as Piccolo? Because that spar with Gohan taken in line with everything else implies that their bases were roughly Ultimate Gohan level.

They were training for 6 months IIRC that was the gap between FnF and U6 Arc right?

[dbgtFO]

On this, did they ever clarify what the hell was up with Gohan's forms and how he seemed to be about as powerful as Piccolo? Because that spar with Gohan taken in line with everything else implies that their bases were roughly Ultimate Gohan level.

They were training for 6 months IIRC that was the gap between FnF and U6 Arc right?

Nothing said they actually were training for those 8 months.
Just another fan assumption.
If anything their training was only the 30 seconds we see of them.

[perucho1990]

Nothing said they actually were training for those 8 months.
Just another fan assumption.
If anything their training was only the 30 seconds we see of them.

Just like how little we saw Trunks "training" with Vegeta, but its logical Piccolo was training in those 8 months to erase his pathetic performance vs Tagoma otherwise Frost wouldve destroyed him in the U6 tourney.

[HeroR]

He was able to push him back while he had his guard up as was said by Kid Trunks. He wasn't even using his full power at the time. On the other hand SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't move Base Copy Vegeta who was just standing there with his arms at his side. He received Beerus and Goku's compliments.

In the manga, regardless of them being at a lesser level, he still compared to Goku's Super Saiyan forms just the same so that would have been what was written in Toriyama's plot outline.

He was at a high enough level to hold his own against Black for a short period. Was capable of keeping track of Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's moves and was able to dodge and withstand attacks from him without losing consciousness unlike Super Saiyan Cabba who was said to be comparable to Vegeta.

After going back into the future he was able to fend off SSJR Black never mind track him and get the upper hand over Zamasu who could tangle with Blue Goku.

He's definitely comparable to Goku. That Goku would have to turn SSJ2 or would have to block in the first place says it all really. So how anyone can say otherwise is very odd.

He couldn't sense God Ki because he wasn't a God. After he obtained his new form and acquired God Ki for himself he could now sense it.

Hit and Golden Freeza aren't gods either and they can sense God ki. So if Trunks can't sense God energy, he isn't on that level. And the manga is a non factor in this. Also, there is no confirmation that Trunks' new form even use God ki since no one said such a thing, so you made that up.

Vegeta purposely knocked Cabva unconscious so he will remember the pan, while he was 'training' Trunks and didn't want to render him unconscious.

So Trunks' base wasn't as strong as Goku or Vegeta's no matter how you try to spin it.

[HeroR]

Nothing said they actually were training for those 8 months.
Just another fan assumption.
If anything their training was only the 30 seconds we see of them.

Just like how little we saw Trunks "training" with Vegeta, but its logical Piccolo was training in those 8 months to erase his pathetic performance vs Tagoma otherwise Frost wouldve destroyed him in the U6 tourney.

Piccolo stood no chance against Frost per Goku's own words. He only did as well as he did be Frost was hurt and underestimated Piccolo.

[TheMikado]

If people can accept that Tagoma got so strong in 4 months then why can't Trunks have got so strong in 10 years?

Because he trained a bunch after killing the androids, then trained a bunch with Kaioshin which he specifically credits with making him much stronger than he otherwise would have been, and he's still weaker than Dabra.

Also, the old Piccolo issue.

Also, the implication that "our" Zamasu was randomly tens of thousands of times stronger than all the other Kaioshin even before the events of this arc.

Whole thing just seems like it would make far more sense if the base saiyans were roughly as powerful as they were rather than being made x1000 more powerful for no reason.

Everyone accepts the Tagoma thing as BS as well. People are just getting tired of stacking BS on top of BS. No one wants the franchise to turn into a mountain of sh*t writing.

[HeroR]

Nothing said they actually were training for those 8 months.
Just another fan assumption.
If anything their training was only the 30 seconds we see of them.

Just like how little we saw Trunks "training" with Vegeta, but its logical Piccolo was training in those 8 months to erase his pathetic performance vs Tagoma otherwise Frost wouldve destroyed him in the U6 tourney.

Piccolo stood no chance against Frost per Goku's own words. He only did as well as he did be Frost was hurt and underestimated Piccolo.

Hit would one-shot Buu. He's capable of dealing damage to SSBlue Kkx10 Goku who is hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than Buu.

But Hit doesn't have Ki blasts. He could punch him, but it's not enough to defeat Boo. He possibly doesn't have any weak points, and the only way to eliminate him is to destroy all of his atoms.
But Hit is much faster and powerful than Boo, so he could punish him a lot...Defeat? I really don't know how.

Buu can be defeated by brute force. I'm not sure why fans keep forgetting that Kid Buu nearly beat Fat Buu to death. The same with Evil Buu.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Buu can be defeated by brute force. I'm not sure why fans keep forgetting that Kid Buu nearly beat Fat Buu to death. The same with Evil Buu.

Beerus wrecked him in one blow too.

[Marlowe89]

That would be totally ridiculous if they were actually that powerful

If we take everything at face value then they shouldn't be; at the very least they're not on the level of SSG. Whis made it clear that a specific level of power is required to be reached to sense God ki and Trunks couldn't reach that level even with Super Saiyan 2, so that's really all we have definitively to go on. This is bolstered even more when Trunks is shocked by the power of Vegeta/Goku's God ki (which far exceeds his own) and then speculates that power must have been used to do battle with Beerus, the God of Destruction - clearly a dialogue reference to BoG. None of this would have been in the episode's script if Trunks was stronger than BoG Goku.

Barring a few potential inconsistencies, I think Toei has been pretty straightforward about this for the most part and some people just wish (maybe because they're fans of the character) that Trunks was God tier before the Super boost despite nothing directly indicating that he was. Zamasu was also never said to be thousands of times stronger than the other Kaioshin when he was first introduced so that's completely speculative as well.