Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

Why not using this idea on DBZ too? It would go along with the Goku vs Yakon part when Babbidi reads their powers (he read ssj Goku with 3000 kiri and Yakon with 800 - this means that the latter is 3.75x weaker and if Goku's base was around 3x less than the ssj form, it would make sense). And you could explain the lower multiplier, when compared to Namek ssj Goku, with their training in the RoSaT before the Cell games. As far as I can see, it comes together.

Because Goku's still weaker than Freeza in his normal form. Besides, 800 and 3,000 are both commonly used in Japanese as a symbolic way of saying "an enormous amount". So the joke is that Toriyama is saying that they're both really strong, in a roundabout way.

In universe explanation, Goku isn't at full power here.

Also, there's nothing in the manga that ever implies they can tap into SS without fully transforming into it. GT blatantly shows us that Goku can.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Why not using this idea on DBZ too? It would go along with the Goku vs Yakon part when Babbidi reads their powers (he read ssj Goku with 3000 kiri and Yakon with 800 - this means that the latter is 3.75x weaker and if Goku's base was around 3x less than the ssj form, it would make sense). And you could explain the lower multiplier, when compared to Namek ssj Goku, with their training in the RoSaT before the Cell games. As far as I can see, it comes together.

Because Goku's still weaker than Freeza in his normal form. Besides, 800 and 3,000 are both commonly used in Japanese as a symbolic way of saying "an enormous amount". So the joke is that Toriyama is saying that they're both really strong, in a roundabout way.

In universe explanation, Goku isn't at full power here.

Also, there's nothing in the manga that ever implies they can tap into SS without fully transforming into it. GT blatantly shows us that Goku can.

In addition, we don't know if Babidi uses a linear scale.

[Bullza]

So where do you lot place King Cold? The Daizenshuu says he's slightly behind Frieza. The Earthlings described two huge powers and not that one was really bigger than the other or anything.

So slightly less than 100% Frieza on Namek? Like 100 million or so?

[DanielSSJ]

So where do you lot place King Cold? The Daizenshuu says he's slightly behind Frieza. The Earthlings described two huge powers and not that one was really bigger than the other or anything.

So slightly less than 100% Frieza on Namek? Like 100 million or so?

This fake V-Jump scan formed the basic foundation of my lists, so I'm partial to putting him around the 90 million range. My exact number for him is 95 million, just because I think it looks aesthetically pleasing.

[Sailor Haumea]

Here's a new challenge:

Power-scale Z (anime), Super (anime), and GT to these conditions:

1. Movies must be included (Dead Zone before Raditz Saga; World's Strongest, Tree of Might, Lord Slug, and Cooler's Revenge during the three-year training for the Androids; Super Android 13! during the events of episode 147, after Goku tells Vegeta and Trunks about the Chamber, but before they actually enter; The Return of Cooler, The Real 4-D, Broly 1, and Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans during the 10 day wait; Movie 9 after the Other World Saga; Movie 10 between episodes 207 and 208; Movie 11 after Goku returns to Other World; Movie 13 after episode 287; and 2008 OVA after Movie 13. Movie 12 can be excluded - see below).
2. Shin Budokai should be included during the gap between Yo! Son Goku and the start of Super.

Basically, COMPLETELY overhaul the power scaling system to bring the movies, Super, and GT in line with one another.

Any takers for my challenge?

[Lord Beerus]

Here's a new challenge:

Power-scale Z (anime), Super (anime), and GT to these conditions:

1. Movies must be included (Dead Zone before Raditz Saga; World's Strongest, Tree of Might, Lord Slug, and Cooler's Revenge during the three-year training for the Androids; Super Android 13! during the events of episode 147, after Goku tells Vegeta and Trunks about the Chamber, but before they actually enter; The Return of Cooler, The Real 4-D, Broly 1, and Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans during the 10 day wait; Movie 9 after the Other World Saga; Movie 10 between episodes 207 and 208; Movie 11 after Goku returns to Other World; Movie 13 after episode 287; and 2008 OVA after Movie 13. Movie 12 can be excluded - see below).
2. Shin Budokai should be included during the gap between Yo! Son Goku and the start of Super.

Basically, COMPLETELY overhaul the power scaling system to bring the movies, Super, and GT in line with one another.

Any takers for my challenge?

Are you trying to kill the posters in this thread?

[ekrolo2]

How strong do you guys have Base Goku & Vegeta in the Super manga around the U6 & Black arcs? I've got them in-between Androids 17 & 18 and their SS power levels from the early, Pre-ROSAT Android stuff.

They're definitely not above Piccolo since he could take on Frost while Vegeta still needed SS to go easy on him even after he'd been beaten up & severely weakened after his two fights with Goku & Piccolo.

Are you trying to kill the posters in this thread?

I know my sanity meter dropped like a fucking rock just from reading all of that.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong do you guys have Base Goku & Vegeta in the Super manga around the U6 & Black arcs? I've got them in-between Androids 17 & 18 and their SS power levels from the early, Pre-ROSAT Android stuff.

They're definitely not above Piccolo since he could take on Frost while Vegeta still needed SS to go easy on him even after he'd been beaten up & severely weakened after his two fights with Goku & Piccolo.

They were suppressed at this point. At they full power, i have they at base Vegetto and FP SSJ3 Goku.

Here's a new challenge:

Power-scale Z (anime), Super (anime), and GT to these conditions:

1. Movies must be included (Dead Zone before Raditz Saga; World's Strongest, Tree of Might, Lord Slug, and Cooler's Revenge during the three-year training for the Androids; Super Android 13! during the events of episode 147, after Goku tells Vegeta and Trunks about the Chamber, but before they actually enter; The Return of Cooler, The Real 4-D, Broly 1, and Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans during the 10 day wait; Movie 9 after the Other World Saga; Movie 10 between episodes 207 and 208; Movie 11 after Goku returns to Other World; Movie 13 after episode 287; and 2008 OVA after Movie 13. Movie 12 can be excluded - see below).
2. Shin Budokai should be included during the gap between Yo! Son Goku and the start of Super.

Basically, COMPLETELY overhaul the power scaling system to bring the movies, Super, and GT in line with one another.

Any takers for my challenge?

Challenge accepted, dude! But, how to solve the plot holes? Goku not going SSJ in movies 2-4, Piccolo in Movie 7 (He was fighting 17 at this point), power levels in Movie 3 and others?

So where do you lot place King Cold? The Daizenshuu says he's slightly behind Frieza. The Earthlings described two huge powers and not that one was really bigger than the other or anything.

So slightly less than 100% Frieza on Namek? Like 100 million or so?

I have King Cold at 130 millions. Freeza thought he would be helpful against Goku.

[ekrolo2]

They were suppressed at this point. At they full power, i have they at base Vegetto and FP SSJ3 Goku.

So Piccolo and Trunks are above Vegetto in the manga?

[TheUltimateNinja]

There is no way to make sense of Super and GT existing in the same timeline.

[DBZ Macky]

I was just re-watching Dragon Ball Super and it seems that Toei goes with BoG Goku > Freeza.
They added an extra line about Beerus saying that even SSJ Goku couldn't defeat Freeza.
What are your thoughts on this? I'm tired of the Base Saiyans Vs Freeza argument. Someone please convince me to one side

[RandomGuy96]

I think if I ever do a Super battle power list, I'll treat the manga like the DB manga. That is, assume that (and the movies) is the "canon" order, and that the anime just adds stuff on top of it that may or may not be ridiculous on its face. On the level of Gohan giving 100% final form Freeza trouble, or Yamcha and Tenshinhan landing hits on the Cell Juniors, or base Vegeta putting up a fight against Pure Buu.

[Desassina]

I'm using a base multiplier of 10 for SSJ in DB Super. I'm not using the two base theory, so here goes the attempt at a power level list, with the exponents being:

DB Super Arcs

Battle of Gods

[spoiler]SSJ Goku/Vegeta/Gotenks - 1
SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta - 2
SSJ3 Goku/Gotenks - 3
Super Vegetto - 4
Enraged Vegeta - 5
SSJG/SSJ Goku - 6
Beerus - 10
Whis - 15[/spoiler]

Resurrection of F

[spoiler]SSJ Gohan - 1
Freeza (1st form) - 3
Base Goku/Vegeta/Freeza (4th) - 5
SSJB Goku/Vegeta/Golden Freeza - 7[/spoiler]

Universe 6 Tournament

[spoiler]Piccolo - 3
Frost (1st/3rd/4th) - 3/4/5
Botamo - 5
Base/SSJ Cabba - 5/6
Magetta - 6
SSJB Goku/Vegeta - 7
KKx10 SSJB Goku/Hit - 8[/spoiler]

Future Trunks' Arc

[spoiler]Zamasu - 4
Base Goku/Vegeta/Trunks - 5
Goku Black - 6
SSJ/SSJ2 Trunks - 6/7
Super Trunks/SSJR Black - 8
Merged Zamasu - 12
SSJB Vegetto - 14[/spoiler]

So, what the hell is happening? Is SSJB the same as SSJ2 over base? Without further explanation, we might as well say the former is an extension to SSJ without its ki being readable or, in Super Kaioken Blue's case, the strain can only be compared to SSJ3. In other words, they are alternatives that save the studio's resources, when the old ones would have the same purpose. Fusion consists of their base multiplied by each other or, in case it was 1, their transformation to the power of 2. When a stomp was described by 2 times the difference in the Dragon Ball manga, it is now described by 100 in the Super anime, in my opinion.

[DBZ Macky]

God, I used to DESPISE the "Shrinking SSJ Multiplier" theory but now I'm finally beginning to see why so many people adopt it. Though it's been disproved by Goku becoming "Dozens of times" stronger by turning SSJ/SSJ2.

[Desassina]

It's not a shrinking multiplier. Goku and Freeza had taken so much damage that they couldn't be 150'000'000 and 120'000'000 for 50 times their base to work. However, what would Kaioken x20 be compared to SSJ? A straining technique that rapidly increases Goku's power in a short period of time, for twice the amount of SSJ that seemed ever lasting, and without a major hindrance. Freeza doubled his power into 100% by straining himself, and Goku went up by 10 fold by recovering his stamina, so you have 5 times the difference to place both of them. Besides, once Goku went SSJ, the tides of the battle did not change for him to need more power. I prefer this small difference because Piccolo and Vegeta are within range for Goku to consider them during Freeza's arrival, and not a ridiculous 50 amount that no technique would allow them to get close to.

[DanielSSJ]

It's not a shrinking multiplier. Goku and Freeza had taken so much damage that they couldn't be 150'000'000 and 120'000'000 for 50 times their base to work. However, what would Kaioken x20 be compared to SSJ? A straining technique that rapidly increases Goku's power in a short period of time, for twice the amount of SSJ that seemed ever lasting, and without a major hindrance. Freeza doubled his power into 100% by straining himself, and Goku went up by 10 fold by recovering his stamina, so you have 5 times the difference to place both of them. Besides, once Goku went SSJ, the tides of the battle did not change for him to need more power. I prefer this small difference because Piccolo and Vegeta are within range for Goku to consider them during Freeza's arrival, and not a ridiculous 50 amount that no technique would allow them to get close to.

The 120 million and 150 million numbers work fine when you consider the idea that A) Super Saiyan might've revitalized Goku a bit, and let him ignore his previous injuries for a while, like an adrenaline rush might, and B) Despite taking heavy damage, Freeza still had a whole lot of Ki in reserves that he just wasn't using until that point. It's possible that his injuries might've reduced the time he could use 100% of his power, but if Freeza says he was at 100%, and Goku explicitly describes wanting to fight Freeza absolute best, I'm gonna take their word for it.

Anyways, the point of the Super Saiyan transformation in this arc is that it was a ridiculously large increase befitting of it's legendary status, and because nothing less would've let him or anyone else become a match for Freeza (even if it didn't last).

[Desassina]

Going 100% does not mean to suddenly recover power that was lost through damage. Vegeta was going to multiply his power as an Oozaru by going down first, because when he reverted, Gohan was a bit closer to him. Freeza took a freaking Genki-dama to the face. It's not hard to imagine him losing a good amount of power, and to continue losing it by getting strained, while Goku was allowed to replenish himself from where he was standing. Then... Boom! Super Saiya-jin with a modest increase that doesn't go away, nor does it get him strained like Kaioken. Seriously, Freeza was just going from 50% of his power getting damaged to double the amount.

[Pantalones]

So where do you lot place King Cold? The Daizenshuu says he's slightly behind Frieza. The Earthlings described two huge powers and not that one was really bigger than the other or anything.

So slightly less than 100% Frieza on Namek? Like 100 million or so?

Doesn't Gohan also comment that Freeza's full power is a lot more than what he's putting off when he and Cold first land on Earth? I'm not sure Gohan ever saw Freeza's 100%, but he definitely was present for 50% and whatever amount Freeza used to stop Goku's Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha (presumably 60%-80% or something, since that attack's power should've been at least 60,000,000 and "just burned my hands a little" doesn't seem like what would happen to somebody getting hit head-on by a full strength attack from someone equal to them.) So I wouldn't put Cold that close to 100% Freeza, maybe closer to 50% at best -- still definitely somewhere in the ten-millions though.

[Doctor.]

Here's a new challenge:

Power-scale Z (anime), Super (anime), and GT to these conditions:

1. Movies must be included (Dead Zone before Raditz Saga; World's Strongest, Tree of Might, Lord Slug, and Cooler's Revenge during the three-year training for the Androids; Super Android 13! during the events of episode 147, after Goku tells Vegeta and Trunks about the Chamber, but before they actually enter; The Return of Cooler, The Real 4-D, Broly 1, and Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans during the 10 day wait; Movie 9 after the Other World Saga; Movie 10 between episodes 207 and 208; Movie 11 after Goku returns to Other World; Movie 13 after episode 287; and 2008 OVA after Movie 13. Movie 12 can be excluded - see below).
2. Shin Budokai should be included during the gap between Yo! Son Goku and the start of Super.

Basically, COMPLETELY overhaul the power scaling system to bring the movies, Super, and GT in line with one another.

Any takers for my challenge?

Why not add Xenoverse while you're at it?

[DanielSSJ]

Doesn't Gohan also comment that Freeza's full power is a lot more than what he's putting off when he and Cold first land on Earth? I'm not sure Gohan ever saw Freeza's 100%, but he definitely was present for 50% and whatever amount Freeza used to stop Goku's Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha (presumably 60%-80% or something, since that attack's power should've been at least 60,000,000 and "just burned my hands a little" doesn't seem like what would happen to somebody getting hit head-on by a full strength attack from someone equal to them.) So I wouldn't put Cold that close to 100% Freeza, maybe closer to 50% at best -- still definitely somewhere in the ten-millions though.

Gohan might not have seen Freeza at 100%, but he almost definitely felt his and Goku's power while fighting, as he and the others weren't whisked off to Earth till long after Freeza had unleashed his full power.

Why not add Xenoverse while you're at it?

Jesus Christ, you're trying to kill us, aren't you?