Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

It was said once in a filler episode and was never mentioned again nor was it mentioned in anything else.

I won't butt into your conversation beyond this post, but I just want to mention that this is exactly the kind of cherrypicking that HeroR is referring to.

As far as continuity is concerned, meaningless descriptors such as "filler" literally do not apply at all. Everything that occurs in the Super anime is ultimately a real event in the anime's continuity; there are simply no ifs, ands or buts about that. Just as we accept Kaioken Super Saiyan Blue Goku as being a thing in the anime despite the fact that it wasn't in the manga and may not have been in Toriyama's original script, we must also accept what Whis specifically made clear about sensing God ki in addition to what was specifically shown on the multiple occasions that non-gods were entirely capable of sensing God ki without ever actually having used it, as both Hit and Golden Freeza themselves illustrated. There is also no implication whatsoever that Trunks could use God ki in his Super form, so until noted otherwise it's a baseless proposition.

There's really not much room for debate here. When the show presents us with something specific like this, then that's just how it is in regards to the anime.

This is what I'm been saying. The anime clearly showed that Trunks couldn't sense God ki until he got his new form. That says right there that his Super Saiyan 2 wasn't even at base form Goku's level or even true form Freeza. That pushing back means nothing since Goku wasn't struggling or trying and using Vegeta not knocking down Trunks in his God form compared to Cabba as proof of Trunks' power is silly since that would mean Super Saiyan 3 Goku was stronger that Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta since he one shotted Trunks.

No point discussing this further if someone is going to pick and choose their information, even going as far as to mix sources.

[TheMikado]

Wait are you saying Trunks getting his new form is what made he able to sense God ki??? How was the explained at all?? So Trunks now has and is able to use God ki?? Is that official?

[ekrolo2]

Wait are you saying Trunks getting his new form is what made he able to sense God ki??? How was the explained at all?? So Trunks now has and is able to use God ki?? Is that official?

He says in 66 that he can sense Vegetto's Blue power.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Say, our Kaioshin and Gowasu both said Merged Zamasu's power is beyond the comprehension of even Gods, yet I don't recall anybody saying that about Beerus. Now, I know Super loves amping Beerus beyond reason, but logically he should be weaker than Merged Zamasu.

[Doctor.]

Say, our Kaioshin and Gowasu both said Merged Zamasu's power is beyond the comprehension of even Gods, yet I don't recall anybody saying that about Beerus. Now, I know Super loves amping Beerus beyond reason, but logically he should be weaker than Merged Zamasu.

I agree. I see no reason as to why him and Blue Vegetto (and KKx10 Goku, as well) should be any weaker than Beerus and Champa. At least, I'll place them at that level, since we'll never see them again.

[Legion]

Beerus is more "wanked" than merged Zamasu, actually, especially by Toriyama, but whatever.

Beerus is above Goku kkx10 without any doubt, anyway. Goku kkx10 can't even beat Hit, the same Hit that was worried with Champa...if Goku was really above Beerus, it would be said.

About merged Zamasu, these are just vague statement to give Zamasu some hype. The two Kaioshin they never seen Beerus full power (in BOG arc, supreme Kai was surprised that Beerus it was holding back against Goku). And if you're taking their word as gospel, you might as well apply it to the absolute top tier, not only Beerus, and it makes no sense. Until we know how strong Beerus is, i think is useless said that these fusions or Goku are above him or Whis.

[HeroR]

Beerus is more "wanked" than merged Zamasu, actually, especially by Toriyama, but whatever.

Beerus is above Goku kkx10 without any doubt, anyway. Goku kkx10 can't even beat Hit, the same Hit that was worried with Champa...if Goku was really above Beerus, it would be said.

About merged Zamasu, these are just vague statement to give Zamasu some hype. The two Kaioshin they never seen Beerus full power (in BOG arc, supreme Kai was surprised that Beerus it was holding back against Goku). And if you're taking their word as gospel, you might as well apply it to the absolute top tier, not only Beerus, and it makes no sense. Until we know how strong Beerus is, i think is useless said that these fusions or Goku are above him or Whis.

Goku claimed that he could beat Hit, which is why he asked for the no kill rule to be removed. He only forfeited after Beerus wasted too much of his time. What made Hit dangerous is his techniques, not power where he was outclassed by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku until he improved.

You're assuming that Gowasu never saw Beerus at full power when no such statement had been made or implied.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I don't recall that being a learnable skill short of getting powerful enough to sense it or being a god. Either way with out an official explanation it's head canon.

The Oracle Fish can sense God Ki and she's (?) not a God.

She seems to have a similar status as Whis, Kibito, Mr. Popo, and Karin, so that would make her a god.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Beerus is more "wanked" than merged Zamasu, actually, especially by Toriyama, but whatever.

Beerus is above Goku kkx10 without any doubt, anyway. Goku kkx10 can't even beat Hit, the same Hit that was worried with Champa...if Goku was really above Beerus, it would be said.

About merged Zamasu, these are just vague statement to give Zamasu some hype. The two Kaioshin they never seen Beerus full power (in BOG arc, supreme Kai was surprised that Beerus it was holding back against Goku). And if you're taking their word as gospel, you might as well apply it to the absolute top tier, not only Beerus, and it makes no sense. Until we know how strong Beerus is, i think is useless said that these fusions or Goku are above him or Whis.

Even if you have SSGod Goku at only 2% of Beerus, it still becomes really hard to powerscale Merged Zamasu below him. I'll give it a shot:
SSGod Goku: 1
SSBlue Goku (Tournament): 2.5
Hit: 2.5
Goku (Kaioken x10): 25
Hit (Improvement complete): 15
SSBlue Goku (FT Arc): 2.8
SSRose Black: 3.5
SSBlue Goku (Rage Boost): 3.8
Super Trunks: 3
SSBlue Vegeta (Rage Boost, Post RoSAT): 4
SSBlue Goku (Current): 4
SSBlue Vegeta (Current): 3.5
SSRose Black (Scythe): 4.5
Future Zamasu: 2.5
Merged Zamasu (Initial): 7
Goku (Kaioken): 8
Merged Zamasu: 35
Vegetto Blue: 37.5
Beerus: 50

It kinda works, I suppose.

[ekrolo2]

I still want to know how Hit doesn't die against KKX10 Goku, his Time Skip can't do jack shit and unless you're REALLY gonna stretch the internal logic, Goku should've been able to one shot him with THAT big of a power gap.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I still want to know how Hit doesn't die against KKX10 Goku, his Time Skip can't do jack shit and unless you're REALLY gonna stretch the internal logic, Goku should've been able to one shot him with THAT big of a power gap.

Hit was increasing his power along with his timeskip, Goku stated that Hit's attacks powered up after he improved.

[ekrolo2]

I still want to know how Hit doesn't die against KKX10 Goku, his Time Skip can't do jack shit and unless you're REALLY gonna stretch the internal logic, Goku should've been able to one shot him with THAT big of a power gap.

Hit was increasing his power along with his timeskip, Goku stated that Hit's attacks powered up after he improved.

Still, wouldn't the gap between him and x10 Goku put him well within one-shot material? Hit's improvement also takes a while to kick in, meaning Goku's various punches and kicks should've taken him out before he could get strong enough.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I still want to know how Hit doesn't die against KKX10 Goku, his Time Skip can't do jack shit and unless you're REALLY gonna stretch the internal logic, Goku should've been able to one shot him with THAT big of a power gap.

Hit was increasing his power along with his timeskip, Goku stated that Hit's attacks powered up after he improved.

Still, wouldn't the gap between him and x10 Goku put him well within one-shot material?

Hit became over 5x stronger, though, his timeskip was originally 0.1s and he was up to 0.5s against Kaioken x10 Goku, plus he further improved one more time but didn't state by how much, so I'm being conservative and going with 0.6s. Assuming he was originally even with SSBlue Goku, this would put him at 60% of Kkx10 Goku's strength. Under normal conditions he would get completely thrashed, but he has the timeskip on his side and Goku is rapidly losing stamina so that's the reason he was able to hold on.

[ekrolo2]

Hit became over 5x stronger, though, his timeskip was originally 0.1s and he was up to 0.5s against Kaioken x10 Goku, plus he further improved one more time but didn't state by how much, so I'm being conservative and going with 0.6s. Assuming he was originally even with SSBlue Goku, this would put him at 60% of Kkx10 Goku's strength. Under normal conditions he would get completely thrashed, but he has the timeskip on his side and Goku is rapidly losing stamina so that's the reason he was able to hold on.

Hit's time skip wasn't working until Goku's Kamehameha though. For a good little while, Goku is beating the over loving shit out of him and he can't do anything to protect himself, even if we assume Hit got five times stronger, that would still make him only half of Goku's X10 strength, once again putting him in instant curb stomp territory until his finla improvement.

[Doctor.]

I still want to know how Hit doesn't die against KKX10 Goku, his Time Skip can't do jack shit and unless you're REALLY gonna stretch the internal logic, Goku should've been able to one shot him with THAT big of a power gap.

My headcanon is that he only used x10 for that combo and Kamehameha when Chozetsu Dynamic plays, then he reverted back to x2 for the rest of the fight. After all, "x10" is characterized by the entire arena turning red, and that's gone by the next episode.

[ekrolo2]

I still want to know how Hit doesn't die against KKX10 Goku, his Time Skip can't do jack shit and unless you're REALLY gonna stretch the internal logic, Goku should've been able to one shot him with THAT big of a power gap.

My headcanon is that he only used x10 for that combo and Kamehameha when Chozetsu Dynamic plays, then he reverted back to x2 for the rest of the fight. After all, "x10" is characterized by the entire arena turning red, and that's gone by the next episode.

I'm referring to the combo pre-Kamehameha, Hit should've been beaten from their gap in strength.

[Doctor.]

I'm referring to the combo pre-Kamehameha, Hit should've been beaten from their gap in strength.

Eternal powerlevel bullshit. Why wasn't Vegeta vaporized by Goku's x4 Kamehameha when a smaller gap allowed him to vaporize Dodoria? The world may never know.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hit became over 5x stronger, though, his timeskip was originally 0.1s and he was up to 0.5s against Kaioken x10 Goku, plus he further improved one more time but didn't state by how much, so I'm being conservative and going with 0.6s. Assuming he was originally even with SSBlue Goku, this would put him at 60% of Kkx10 Goku's strength. Under normal conditions he would get completely thrashed, but he has the timeskip on his side and Goku is rapidly losing stamina so that's the reason he was able to hold on.

Hit's time skip wasn't working until Goku's Kamehameha though. For a good little while, Goku is beating the over loving shit out of him and he can't do anything to protect himself, even if we assume Hit got five times stronger, that would still make him only half of Goku's X10 strength, once again putting him in instant curb stomp territory until his finla improvement.

Probably because the Kaioken is not a natural enhancement, the incredible strain most likely prevents him from using its power to its fullest extent, the same thing happened against Vegeta and Frieza, by all accounts his attacks should have done major damage but ultimately didn't accomplish much because he was pushing himself beyond his limits.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Wait are you saying Trunks getting his new form is what made he able to sense God ki??? How was the explained at all?? So Trunks now has and is able to use God ki?? Is that official?

Trunks' maximum power was SS2 before the new form. This power was not above the level for sensing god ki (as Whis talks about).

When Trunks went Super Saiyan Demigod (my term for it), he gains a lot of power. He is then able to sense SSB Vegito. We know his power was beyond the level for sensing god ki.

[Bullza]

This is what I'm been saying. The anime clearly showed that Trunks couldn't sense God ki until he got his new form. That says right there that his Super Saiyan 2 wasn't even at base form Goku's level or even true form Freeza.

The anime also clearly showed Trunks' superiority to SSJ3 Gotenks, him being able to briefly hold his own against Base Black, being able to send Super Saiyan Rose Black hurdling into a building and keeping up with Zamasu.

He can't sense God Ki and that's fine but he is certainly not weaker than Base Goku or Final Form Frieza obviously which creates an inconsistency with Whis' line not from Toriyama which contradicts Trunks' standing compared to others which is from Toriyama.

If SSJ3 Gotenks can't budge Base Vegeta so much as an inch then no Buu saga level SSJ2 Trunks would never in anyway have been able to do what he did in the series.

You're ignoring a ton of stuff in place of one old Toei comment.