Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheUltimateNinja]

This is what I'm been saying. The anime clearly showed that Trunks couldn't sense God ki until he got his new form. That says right there that his Super Saiyan 2 wasn't even at base form Goku's level or even true form Freeza.

The anime also clearly showed Trunks' superiority to SSJ3 Gotenks, him being able to briefly hold his own against Base Black, being able to send Super Saiyan Rose Black hurdling into a building and keeping up with Zamasu.

He can't sense God Ki and that's fine but he is certainly not weaker than Base Goku or Final Form Frieza obviously which creates an inconsistency with Whis' line not from Toriyama which contradicts Trunks' standing compared to others which is from Toriyama.

If SSJ3 Gotenks can't budge Base Vegeta so much as an inch then no Buu saga level SSJ2 Trunks would never in anyway have been able to do what he did in the series.

You're ignoring a ton of stuff in place of one old Toei comment.

Trunks got a major amp went they went back to the future, though, when he first showed up he was pretty weak.

[Abra kadabra]

Base vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks makes no sense to me

[TheUltimateNinja]

Base vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks makes no sense to me

Their bases are as strong as SSGod, of course Gotenks and even Ultimate Gohan would be fodder to them.

At any rate, what do you guys think the minimum power increase is for Goku in this arc from start to finish? Personally I have him starting out 2.8x stronger than his SSGod self vs Beerus and ending the arc at 4x stronger, so nearly a 50% increase.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I go by the "Toriyama and Toei can't keep consistency and forgot all about the God Ki in base thing, so their base got retconned back to Boo arc levels in the Champa and Black arcs, and poor Toyotaro got caught up in the middle of this and tried to salvage what he could" theory.

*got retconned back to Boo arc levels in the U6 arc*

Only if you go by the two base theory

I go by the "Toriyama and Toei can't keep consistency and forgot all about the God Ki in base thing, so their base got retconned back to Boo arc levels in the Champa and Black arcs, and poor Toyotaro got caught up in the middle of this and tried to salvage what he could" theory.

Anything solid backing that up? Besides incredulity of Piccolo and Trunks suddenly becoming dozens of times more powerful each yet curiously exactly as strong in relation to Goku and Vegeta as they were before.

It doesn't look like it is retconned. The scene from BoG arc where Beerus explains that SS Goku didn't get any weaker than SSG because he absorbed its power was shown in the U6 arc in a flashback, and base Goku & Vegeta are shown to be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in the filler arc after that. So, no retcon in the anime, they just screwed up & now the battle powers increase inconsistently compared to the original manga's logic, like in GT.

[Doctor.]

*got retconned back to Boo arc levels in the U6 arc*

I go by the "Toriyama and Toei can't keep consistency and forgot all about the God Ki in base thing, so their base got retconned back to Boo arc levels in the Champa and Black arcs, and poor Toyotaro got caught up in the middle of this and tried to salvage what he could" theory.

Anything solid backing that up? Besides incredulity of Piccolo and Trunks suddenly becoming dozens of times more powerful each yet curiously exactly as strong in relation to Goku and Vegeta as they were before.

It doesn't look like it is retconned. The scene from BoG arc where Beerus explains that SS Goku didn't get any weaker than SSG because he absorbed its power was shown in the U6 arc in a flashback, and base Goku & Vegeta are shown to be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in the filler arc after that. So, no retcon in the anime, they just screwed up & now the battle powers increase inconsistently compared to the original manga's logic, like in GT.

It seems to me like it got retconned by Toriyama himself, except he never gave anyone the notice, so Toei just kept acting like the "God ki in base" thing was still relevant. It seems incredible to me that all the U6 fighters are God-tier when Cabba couldn't even turn Super Saiyan prior to fighting Vegeta and Piccolo managed to hold his own against Frost (a weakened Frost, but he managed to take hits from SS Goku, not to mention that Goku compared him to pre-training Freeza). Piccolo isn't God-tier considering that Goku and Vegeta thought Gohan and Boo were both better alternatives to him. Then you come to the Future Trunks arc, where Trunks was barely stronger than Dabra a few years ago and now he's supposedly God tier? Better yet, Beerus spent all that time looking for a worthy opponent in the BoG arc and even praised Super Saiyan God's power when he could have jumped 3 universes and fought Zamasu, who's apparently just as strong, if not stronger, than SSG. No, all of this, coupled with the fact that in the Toriyama-supervised manga SSG is just another form on top of SS3, seems to me like Toriyama just forgot about the whole God ki absorption concept once he wrote the Champa arc (and, later, the Black arc) and Toei simply never got the memo (hence Goku's base strength in the Copy Vegeta filler).

You could say it's the "two-base theory", I guess, result would be the same. I just don't pretend to act like there's an in-universe reason and look at things out-of-universe instead.

[TheMikado]

Anything solid backing that up? Besides incredulity of Piccolo and Trunks suddenly becoming dozens of times more powerful each yet curiously exactly as strong in relation to Goku and Vegeta as they were before.

It doesn't look like it is retconned. The scene from BoG arc where Beerus explains that SS Goku didn't get any weaker than SSG because he absorbed its power was shown in the U6 arc in a flashback, and base Goku & Vegeta are shown to be stronger than SS3 Gotenks in the filler arc after that. So, no retcon in the anime, they just screwed up & now the battle powers increase inconsistently compared to the original manga's logic, like in GT.

It seems to me like it got retconned by Toriyama himself, except he never gave anyone the notice, so Toei just kept acting like the "God ki in base" thing was still relevant. It seems incredible to me that all the U6 fighters are God-tier when Cabba couldn't even turn Super Saiyan prior to fighting Vegeta and Piccolo managed to hold his own against Frost (a weakened Frost, but he managed to take hits from SS Goku, not to mention that Goku compared him to pre-training Freeza). Piccolo isn't God-tier considering that Goku and Vegeta thought Gohan and Boo were both better alternatives to him. Then you come to the Future Trunks arc, where Trunks was barely stronger than Dabra a few years ago and now he's supposedly God tier? Better yet, Beerus spent all that time looking for a worthy opponent in the BoG arc and even praised Super Saiyan God's power when he could have jumped 3 universes and fought Zamasu, who's apparently just as strong, if not stronger, than SSG. No, all of this, coupled with the fact that in the Toriyama-supervised manga SSG is just another form on top of SS3, seems to me like Toriyama just forgot about the whole God ki absorption concept once he wrote the Champa arc (and, later, the Black arc) and Toei simply never got the memo (hence Goku's base strength in the Copy Vegeta filler).

You could say it's the "two-base theory", I guess, result would be the same. I just don't pretend to act like there's an in-universe reason and look at things out-of-universe instead.

I've been saying this same thing for months now, it's really the only explanation and it's an out of universe one. My personal theory that I subscribe to is that during the pre pre production phase Toei agreed to he adapt the movies while Toriyama worked on the future outlines. Given what we know of the production schedule and the length of time to air this scenario seems to make the most sense. Toriyama in the process of writing the outlines and LIKE A GOOD AUTHOR probably realized he wrote himself into a corner if the base levels are super strong. As I said before there's a good chance episodes were already done and airing by the time the decision was made to not have th super strong bases.

As as a bonus GT was NEVER EVER EVER this bad and for this long. Are there some inconsistencies, yes. But nothing that actually breaks the overall plot where you have people repeating making new threads asking if SSB is stronger than SSG. Imagine if people kept asking if kaioken x20 was stronger than SSJ1 years after it was introduced.. something is sorely off with the story when a large part of the audience has trouble establishing a decent heirarchy.

[ekrolo2]

It seems to me like it got retconned by Toriyama himself, except he never gave anyone the notice, so Toei just kept acting like the "God ki in base" thing was still relevant. It seems incredible to me that all the U6 fighters are God-tier when Cabba couldn't even turn Super Saiyan prior to fighting Vegeta and Piccolo managed to hold his own against Frost (a weakened Frost, but he managed to take hits from SS Goku, not to mention that Goku compared him to pre-training Freeza). Piccolo isn't God-tier considering that Goku and Vegeta thought Gohan and Boo were both better alternatives to him. Then you come to the Future Trunks arc, where Trunks was barely stronger than Dabra a few years ago and now he's supposedly God tier? Better yet, Beerus spent all that time looking for a worthy opponent in the BoG arc and even praised Super Saiyan God's power when he could have jumped 3 universes and fought Zamasu, who's apparently just as strong, if not stronger, than SSG. No, all of this, coupled with the fact that in the Toriyama-supervised manga SSG is just another form on top of SS3, seems to me like Toriyama just forgot about the whole God ki absorption concept once he wrote the Champa arc (and, later, the Black arc) and Toei simply never got the memo (hence Goku's base strength in the Copy Vegeta filler).

You could say it's the "two-base theory", I guess, result would be the same. I just don't pretend to act like there's an in-universe reason and look at things out-of-universe instead.

My basis for him dropping the whole God Ki in Base comes from the fact the Golden SS line is back when the movies went out of their way to abolish them entirely. I don't think he forgot about that either, he probably just removed higher level Base states to nerf Goku & Vegeta so Beerus remains a tougher goal for them to overcome. With the movies rules, Goku & Vegeta would've surpassed him in maybe one more story.

[DBZ Macky]

Those who think that current Base Goku or even SSJ Goku is stronger than Godku, please answer this question:
Why was Godku the (second?) strongest person Beerus fought when he could just go to U6 and fight Cabba, Maggeta and even Frost?

[dbgtFO]

My basis for him dropping the whole God Ki in Base comes from the fact the Golden SS line is back when the movies went out of their way to abolish them entirely. I don't think he forgot about that either, he probably just removed higher level Base states to nerf Goku & Vegeta so Beerus remains a tougher goal for them to overcome. With the movies rules, Goku & Vegeta would've surpassed him in maybe one more story.

Agreed with that.
Btw I must ask this again:

Did anyone get a good laugh out of the V-Jump description for Merged Zamasu's power? Best damn joke I've heard all week.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Can you elaborate?

[DBZ Macky]

Honestly I have no idea why the Base Saiyans' power is always so ambiguous.
First we had Base Saiyans VS Freeza, then Base Saiyans VS Piccolo, and now Base Saiyans VS SSJ God.

[ekrolo2]

Agreed with that.
Btw I must ask this again:

Did anyone get a good laugh out of the V-Jump description for Merged Zamasu's power? Best damn joke I've heard all week.

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Can you elaborate?

Oh, sorry for not replying sooner.

V-Jump had a two-page article recently which determined the threat level of every Super antagonist so far from Beerus to Merged Zamasu. It said that MZs power was so great no one could touch
Given what happens to him in the series proper that's hilariously wrong in every possible way.

[Lord Beerus]

As as a bonus GT was NEVER EVER EVER this bad and for this long. Are there some inconsistencies, yes. But nothing that actually breaks the overall plot where you have people repeating making new threads asking if SSB is stronger than SSG. Imagine if people kept asking if kaioken x20 was stronger than SSJ1 years after it was introduced.. something is sorely off with the story when a large part of the audience has trouble establishing a decent heirarchy.

That's debatable.

In GT, the power level consistency seriously went of the rails once the Grand Tour Gang took on Rild. IIRC, all Goku said is that Rild had a ki greater than Majin Boo, and Goku was able to hold his own against him in his base form, so naturally many came to the conclusion that Goku in his base form was stronger Majin Boo. But that begs the question, which form of Majin Boo was he talking about? Or was he talking about Majin Boo as a whole? It's never specified.

And what about Pan? I mean, holy shit. Pan is by far the biggest mystery in regard to strength of a character that GT, and Dragon Ball as whole, has ever produced. Her strength fluctuated constantly in the show. Pan was able to knock away General Rilldo with a single kick, and at that stage, Goku had commented that General Rilldo had a ki greater than Majin Boo, which of course goes back to previous point of which form Majin Boo was he talking about? Because Goku encountered nearly ever form of Majin Boo and had a good idea of how strong they were. So it seem to me that Pan would be at the very least SSJ3 tier in terms of strength, and on the high end, stronger than Boohan. Then during the Super 17 arc, Pan was strong enough to be able to take #20 by surprise and restrain him, and even #20 seemed shocked at Pan being so strong for her age. So that would put Pan definitely as strong as Pre-ROSAT SSJ Goku and Vegeta during the Android/Cell arc, as well. Then in the Shadow Dragon arc, Pan was able to easily overpower Haze Shenron and deal enough damage to force Oceanus Shenron out of her Princess Oto form with a Kamehameha. This would further reinforce that Pan's strength seems to be on the higher end of the spectrum, at much stronger than Boohan tier level, considering that Base Goku also had trouble with Oceanus Shenron, too. And of course there were absolute bollocks moment in the Super 17 arc where Super 17 dominated everyone and then SSJ Kid Goku was able to hold his own against him. Not mention to this day people still debate how strong Piccolo, Trunks, Goten, Gohan and the rest of the core cast are.

Now we turn our attention to Super. Of course, Super has the grand mystery of how strong Goku and Vegeta are in their base forms, not to mention how Vegeta was able to tap into God ki, without becoming a Super Saiyan God, and was able to jump from SSJ2 tier to SSJB tier in just 6 months of training. And of course we have the infamous 10% line Beerus made in regards to how strong Vegeta became when he was enraged as a SSJ2, and given the further developments of the plot of Super, this would make Raging SSJ2 Vegeta absurdly strong. And of course, that line ended up getting retconned during the Universe 6/Champ arc with the whole SSJBKKx10 fiasco. But of course, if we take filler into the equation, then Goku and Vegeta are at least as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks. Which is insane. And would retrospectively mean that Piccolo went through a ridiculous increase in strength from training with Gohan, which is even more insane. But how will it be long before the next official arc changes that? And I'm not even get started on the wacky-ass shit that happened in the Future Trunks arc. Future Trunks rage boost transformation is just... *head explodes*.

In conclusion, both GT and Super were equally awful when it came to power scaling and providing information of how strong characters were. But for comparisons sake, It's like picking between a dead skunk and a dead skunk with a little bit of salt on it.

[Legion]

Goku claimed that he could beat Hit, which is why he asked for the no kill rule to be removed. He only forfeited after Beerus wasted too much of his time. What made Hit dangerous is his techniques, not power where he was outclassed by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku until he improved.

You're assuming that Gowasu never saw Beerus at full power when no such statement had been made or implied.

Goku never said that he could beat Hit, but anyway Hit not full power it was quietly Goku's kkx10 level. Goku never stomps him.

? Is not implied but it's obvious.

Supreme Kai never seen Beerus full power, but Gowasu that comes from another universe yes? seems legit.

And against who? don't tell me Whis or some random angel, because is impossible, and the Gods of Destruction can't fight each other, not at full power anyway, or goodbye universes (rewatch episode 28).

Beerus was obsessed with the SSJG because he could finally have a real challenge against someone strong, it's obvious that he has never used his real power against anyone, because there's never been anyone at his level.

Even if you have SSGod Goku at only 2% of Beerus, it still becomes really hard to powerscale Merged Zamasu below him. I'll give it a shot:
SSGod Goku: 1
SSBlue Goku (Tournament): 2.5
Hit: 2.5
Goku (Kaioken x10): 25
Hit (Improvement complete): 15
SSBlue Goku (FT Arc): 2.8
SSRose Black: 3.5
SSBlue Goku (Rage Boost): 3.8
Super Trunks: 3
SSBlue Vegeta (Rage Boost, Post RoSAT): 4
SSBlue Goku (Current): 4
SSBlue Vegeta (Current): 3.5
SSRose Black (Scythe): 4.5
Future Zamasu: 2.5
Merged Zamasu (Initial): 7
Goku (Kaioken): 8
Merged Zamasu: 35
Vegetto Blue: 37.5
Beerus: 50

It kinda works, I suppose.

Mh yes, but after Black saga, i don't use numbers anymore.They're useless...

[Bullza]

Trunks got a major amp went they went back to the future, though, when he first showed up he was pretty weak.

The only boost was implied in some TV magazine. In the show itself he did some image training and did that training for a couple minutes with Vegeta.

Why was Godku the (second?) strongest person Beerus fought when he could just go to U6 and fight Cabba, Maggeta and even Frost?

He's not really supposed to go to other Universes. Champa had to sneak around in Universe 7 because he's not supposed to be allowed there and Beerus shouted at him for it.

[TheMikado]

As as a bonus GT was NEVER EVER EVER this bad and for this long. Are there some inconsistencies, yes. But nothing that actually breaks the overall plot where you have people repeating making new threads asking if SSB is stronger than SSG. Imagine if people kept asking if kaioken x20 was stronger than SSJ1 years after it was introduced.. something is sorely off with the story when a large part of the audience has trouble establishing a decent heirarchy.

That's debatable.

In GT, the power level consistency seriously went of the rails once the Grand Tour Gang took on Rild. IIRC, all Goku said is that Rild had a ki greater than Majin Boo, and Goku was able to hold his own against him in his base form, so naturally many came to the conclusion that Goku in his base form was stronger Majin Boo. But that begs the question, which form of Majin Boo was he talking about? Or was he talking about Majin Boo as a whole? It's never specified.

And what about Pan? I mean, holy shit. Pan is by far the biggest mystery in regard to strength of a character that GT, and Dragon Ball as whole, has ever produced. Her strength fluctuated constantly in the show. Pan was able to knock away General Rilldo with a single kick, and at that stage, Goku had commented that General Rilldo had a ki greater than Majin Boo, which of course goes back to previous point of which form Majin Boo was he talking about? Because Goku encountered nearly ever form of Majin Boo and had a good idea of how strong they were. So it seem to me that Pan would be at the very least SSJ3 tier in terms of strength, and on the high end, stronger than Boohan. Then during the Super 17 arc, Pan was strong enough to be able to take #20 by surprise and restrain him, and even #20 seemed shocked at Pan being so strong for her age. So that would put Pan definitely as strong as Pre-ROSAT SSJ Goku and Vegeta during the Android/Cell arc, as well. Then in the Shadow Dragon arc, Pan was able to easily overpower Haze Shenron and deal enough damage to force Oceanus Shenron out of her Princess Oto form with a Kamehameha. This would further reinforce that Pan's strength seems to be on the higher end of the spectrum, at much stronger than Boohan tier level, considering that Base Goku also had trouble with Oceanus Shenron, too. And of course there were absolute bollocks moment in the Super 17 arc where Super 17 dominated everyone and then SSJ Kid Goku was able to hold his own against him. Not mention to this day people still debate how strong Piccolo, Trunks, Goten, Gohan and the rest of the core cast are.

Now we turn our attention to Super. Of course, Super has the grand mystery of how strong Goku and Vegeta are in their base forms, not to mention how Vegeta was able to tap into God ki, without becoming a Super Saiyan God, and was able to jump from SSJ2 tier to SSJB tier in just 6 months of training. And of course we have the infamous 10% line Beerus made in regards to how strong Vegeta became when he was enraged as a SSJ2, and given the further developments of the plot of Super, this would make Raging SSJ2 Vegeta absurdly strong. And of course, that line ended up getting retconned during the Universe 6/Champ arc with the whole SSJBKKx10 fiasco. But of course, if we take filler into the equation, then Goku and Vegeta are at least as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks. Which is insane. And would retrospectively mean that Piccolo went through a ridiculous increase in strength from training with Gohan, which is even more insane. But how will it be long before the next official arc changes that? And I'm not even get started on the wacky-ass shit that happened in the Future Trunks arc. Future Trunks rage boost transformation is just... *head explodes*.

In conclusion, both GT and Super were equally awful when it came to power scaling and providing information of how strong characters were. But for comparisons sake, It's like picking between a dead skunk and a dead skunk with a little bit of salt on it.

Your entire premise is completely faulty. Your only evidence for Pans power fluctuation is a surprise kick while Rildo was rushing to capture what he thought was a completely helpless little girl. If we were to apply your methods of power gauging without context then Krillin would be able to easily overpower Frieza. Here's the clip for reference. I won't even entertain the post as I said your completely wrong and out of context for Pans power level in GT and used a random 3 second scene without any context whatsoever to further an agenda or perhaps ignorant of the series as a whole.

Below at the 9:00 mark. I encourage everyone to review the clip below to see the gross exaggerations and flat out lies being levied to fullfill an agenda. Metal Rildo wasn't even hurt or sent flying into building, Pan surprise kicked him and got three extra seconds. Cut out the false accusations for people who aren't familiar with the series.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1lnmVaLAElg

Now for further reference we have the alleged SSJ kid Goku punch. It can be seen below starting at 2:30.
The controversial scene shows a SSJ kid Goku Super punching Super17 halfway around the earth when even the combined Z warriors couldn't handle him. The problem as with all these allegations is context. The very next punch Goku attempts to do seems to hit Super 17 right in the gut with hi seeming to keel over and gasp in pain. That is until Super17 starts laughing in Gokus face and reveals that he actually caught Gokus punch with his own hand and picks him up with the one hand and proceeded to pummel him while saying "imagine my disappointment".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bCpCS7s4coo

Again the context of the scenario is either purposefully meant to deceive the other forum readers or is spoken from ignorance or not actually watching the show and merely parroting others.

There are plenty of reasons to critique GT but using false or misleading information to somehow make Supers power scaling look less awful isn't really a valiant pursuit. If anyone wants to use comparisons from older series I encourage them to either provide full context or post a direct clip so that readers and viewers can decide the intent of the presentation for themselves.

[Lord Beerus]

Your entire premise is completely faulty. Your only evidence for Pans power fluctuation is a surprise kick while Rildo was rushing to capture what he thought was a completely helpless little girl. If we were to apply your methods of power gauging without context then Krillin would be able to easily overpower Frieza. Here's the clip for reference. I won't even entertain the post as I said your completely wrong and out of context for Pans power level in GT and used a random 3 second scene without any context whatsoever to further an agenda or perhaps ignorant of the series as a whole.

Below at the 9:00 mark. I encourage everyone to review the clip below to see the gross exaggerations and flat out lies being levied to fullfill an agenda. Metal Rildo wasn't even hurt or sent flying into building, Pan surprise kicked him and got three extra seconds. Cut out the false accusations for people who aren't familiar with the series.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1lnmVaLAElg

Now for further reference we have the alleged SSJ kid Goku punch. It can be seen below starting at 2:30.
The controversial scene shows a SSJ kid Goku Super punching Super17 halfway around the earth when even the combined Z warriors couldn't handle him. The problem as with all these allegations is context. The very next punch Goku attempts to do seems to hit Super 17 right in the gut with hi seeming to keel over and gasp in pain. That is until Super17 starts laughing in Gokus face and reveals that he actually caught Gokus punch with his own hand and picks him up with the one hand and proceeded to pummel him while saying "imagine my disappointment".

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bCpCS7s4coo

Again the context of the scenario is either purposefully meant to deceive the other forum readers or is spoken from ignorance or not actually watching the show and merely parroting others.

There are plenty of reasons to critique GT but using false or misleading information to somehow make Supers power scaling look less awful isn't really a valiant pursuit. If anyone wants to use comparisons from older series I encourage them to either provide full context or post a direct clip so that readers and viewers can decide the intent of the presentation for themselves.

Surprise attacks on characters in Dragon Ball have been quite inconsistent. In some cases they work, and in other they don't, irregardless of the gap in strength between the characters involved in the scenario. It makes no sense for SSJ Goku to be shitting himself when Rild charges at him and then Pan sends him flying with a single kick. Piccolo drop kicks Freeza into river and Perfect Cell no sells attacks from Krillin, and if you take filler, he no-sells a fucking Kiezan. How else can you interpret the scenario other than Pan is strong enough to take on Rild? If you take scene into consider that Pan is strong enough to do that, why doesn't she just kill Haze Shenron with one blast, considering how weak he appears to be?

Context doesn't really help any other scenario either. The very fact that a punch from SSJ Goku sent Super 17 flying across a city is absolutely ridiculous. No villain has ever feigned being injured to that extent before. Not even Goku Black was that bad, and even then it's kinda make sense because of the whole "Saiyans get stronger, the more they fight" deal. Why would would he even sell not being injured by anything that SSJ Goku does to him? It really is no better than what's going on with Super. You think for one second that a character is weak because they seem to be getting their ass kicked, then it turns out, nope, they are just no selling and fooling around with their opponent. This is actually an issue that has plagued Dragon Ball for so many years. The line between being being injured and no selling an attack has become has become so blurred, due the villain decided to act like aiming to win an Oscar, that it becomes very when there are actually hurt and how strong they are.

[HeroR]

Those who think that current Base Goku or even SSJ Goku is stronger than Godku, please answer this question:
Why was Godku the (second?) strongest person Beerus fought when he could just go to U6 and fight Cabba, Maggeta and even Frost?

Why would a God of Destruction go to a whole another universe for a challenge. By that logic, he could just Champa. Also, how would he even know about Cabba? He only knew about a Super Saiyan God after a fish told him one will be born, 25 years ago.

[Noah]

It seems to me like it got retconned by Toriyama himself, except he never gave anyone the notice, so Toei just kept acting like the "God ki in base" thing was still relevant. It seems incredible to me that all the U6 fighters are God-tier when Cabba couldn't even turn Super Saiyan prior to fighting Vegeta and Piccolo managed to hold his own against Frost (a weakened Frost, but he managed to take hits from SS Goku, not to mention that Goku compared him to pre-training Freeza). Piccolo isn't God-tier considering that Goku and Vegeta thought Gohan and Boo were both better alternatives to him. Then you come to the Future Trunks arc, where Trunks was barely stronger than Dabra a few years ago and now he's supposedly God tier? Better yet, Beerus spent all that time looking for a worthy opponent in the BoG arc and even praised Super Saiyan God's power when he could have jumped 3 universes and fought Zamasu, who's apparently just as strong, if not stronger, than SSG. No, all of this, coupled with the fact that in the Toriyama-supervised manga SSG is just another form on top of SS3, seems to me like Toriyama just forgot about the whole God ki absorption concept once he wrote the Champa arc (and, later, the Black arc) and Toei simply never got the memo (hence Goku's base strength in the Copy Vegeta filler).

Mate, I think you have said all Super fallacies until now, congratulations!

Sadly, I think we cannot accept this anymore

[HeroR]

Goku claimed that he could beat Hit, which is why he asked for the no kill rule to be removed. He only forfeited after Beerus wasted too much of his time. What made Hit dangerous is his techniques, not power where he was outclassed by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku until he improved.

You're assuming that Gowasu never saw Beerus at full power when no such statement had been made or implied.

Goku never said that he could beat Hit, but anyway Hit not full power it was quietly Goku's kkx10 level. Goku never stomps him.

? Is not implied but it's obvious.

Supreme Kai never seen Beerus full power, but Gowasu that comes from another universe yes? seems legit.

And against who? don't tell me Whis or some random angel, because is impossible, and the Gods of Destruction can't fight each other, not at full power anyway, or goodbye universes (rewatch episode 28).

Beerus was obsessed with the SSJG because he could finally have a real challenge against someone strong, it's obvious that he has never used his real power against anyone, because there's never been anyone at his level.

Even if you have SSGod Goku at only 2% of Beerus, it still becomes really hard to powerscale Merged Zamasu below him. I'll give it a shot:
SSGod Goku: 1
SSBlue Goku (Tournament): 2.5
Hit: 2.5
Goku (Kaioken x10): 25
Hit (Improvement complete): 15
SSBlue Goku (FT Arc): 2.8
SSRose Black: 3.5
SSBlue Goku (Rage Boost): 3.8
Super Trunks: 3
SSBlue Vegeta (Rage Boost, Post RoSAT): 4
SSBlue Goku (Current): 4
SSBlue Vegeta (Current): 3.5
SSRose Black (Scythe): 4.5
Future Zamasu: 2.5
Merged Zamasu (Initial): 7
Goku (Kaioken): 8
Merged Zamasu: 35
Vegetto Blue: 37.5
Beerus: 50

It kinda works, I suppose.

Mh yes, but after Black saga, i don't use numbers anymore.They're useless...

When Hit asked if Goku had a death wish when he asked the no kill rule to be dropped, Goku claimed that Hit would never touch him again. So he was confident that he could win be Beerus wasted his time. So it wasn't implied at all that Hit would win. Fans just ignore Goku's saying that Hit wouldn't touch him again.

Gowasu knows Beerus by sight and is more knowledgeable than U7's Supreme Kai. He didn't even know who Zen'o was. So you can't make an assumption that Gowasu has no idea of Beerus' full power.

Whis trains Beerus and knows his power better than anyone. In the movie, Beerus call Goku his second best friend with Whis being the first.

[HeroR]

This is what I'm been saying. The anime clearly showed that Trunks couldn't sense God ki until he got his new form. That says right there that his Super Saiyan 2 wasn't even at base form Goku's level or even true form Freeza.

The anime also clearly showed Trunks' superiority to SSJ3 Gotenks, him being able to briefly hold his own against Base Black, being able to send Super Saiyan Rose Black hurdling into a building and keeping up with Zamasu.

He can't sense God Ki and that's fine but he is certainly not weaker than Base Goku or Final Form Frieza obviously which creates an inconsistency with Whis' line not from Toriyama which contradicts Trunks' standing compared to others which is from Toriyama.

If SSJ3 Gotenks can't budge Base Vegeta so much as an inch then no Buu saga level SSJ2 Trunks would never in anyway have been able to do what he did in the series.

You're ignoring a ton of stuff in place of one old Toei comment.

The anime never showed or implied that Trunks is higher than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, so you made that up base on your bias. You're also ignoring that base Black didn't take Trunks seriously and we saw a weaker Black in a flashback destroy Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Saying that Trunks got a giant increased since then was never implied. Only for Black who specifically said to get stronger every time they fight.

He's weaker, otherwise he would have sensed God ki like base form Goku and true form Freeza. There is no way around it since it was said that reaching a certain level let you feel God ki. There's no inconsistency other you not accepting this fact. And Toriyama never stated that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. The only thing we can guess from the outline is that they sparred, Goku goes to his second highest form, and the he smashes Trunks. In the anime, Goku went Super Saiyan 3 to hotdog. Nothing showed he needed to transform or that he even too Trunks seriously.

You keep using Copy Vegeta no selling Gotenks, yet ignore that Super Saiyan 3 Goku one-shoted Trunks, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't apparently. You're ignoring context and motives because it doesn't fit your narrative.

We have seen mortals like Goku, Vegeta, Freeza, and Hit sense God ki. Even if we ignore true form, Goku in his base form can sense God ki. Vegeta in his base form could sense God ki even before he achieved a God form of his own just by training his base to reach Goku's level after absorbing godhood. Freeza with no ki training or exposure to gods sense Goku's God form. This isn't just an one off statement from Whis that got forgotten by Toei. This is something with a proven track record and the anime went out of its way to show that Trunks couldn't sense God ki. Yet, he sensed Vegetto after getting a form on par with Goku and Vegeta's strongest form.

You're the one ignoring stuff and cherrypicking.