Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

Those who think that current Base Goku or even SSJ Goku is stronger than Godku, please answer this question:
Why was Godku the (second?) strongest person Beerus fought when he could just go to U6 and fight Cabba, Maggeta and even Frost?

Was it ever specified that Beerus was familiar with e.g. Zamasu and could travel to other universes frequently? He doesn't seem to know who the U6 fighters are, and certainly there's no doubt that Hit is stronger than SSG if no one else. But if he knew about and could frequently see Zamasu, it becomes a huge question why he'd ever think an SSG to be a worthy opponent; since Zamasu is nearly as strong as post-training, post-god SS2 Goku, who is stronger than post-training, post-god SS1 Goku, who by this logic is stronger than SSG already...

[RandomGuy96]

Agreed with that.
Btw I must ask this again:

I have no idea what you are talking about.
Can you elaborate?

Oh, sorry for not replying sooner.

V-Jump had a two-page article recently which determined the threat level of every Super antagonist so far from Beerus to Merged Zamasu. It said that MZs power was so great no one could touch
Given what happens to him in the series proper that's hilariously wrong in every possible way.

Wouldn't that basically confirm that Merged Zamasu is stronger than Beerus?

[ekrolo2]

I find it really doubtful Beerus couldn't ask Whis "Hey! Use your staff thing to find me a strong opponent anywhere!" and find out about the U6 Saiyan's or Hit that way. FFS, Cabba is a young, seemingly inexperienced rookie who can rofl stomp SS3 Vegetto, how the flying spaghetti monsters fuck balls does he not know about a species of strong fighters literally right next door?!

And don't tell me Whis can't find that stuff out, he can go back into the past and learn about an event he wasn't even present for, I'm pretty sure he could learn about strong fighters in U6.

Wouldn't that basically confirm that Merged Zamasu is stronger than Beerus?

They rank him as a bigger threat than Beerus. Beerus has 9 stars while MZ has 12.

[RandomGuy96]

I find it really doubtful Beerus couldn't ask Whis "Hey! Use your staff thing to find me a strong opponent anywhere!" and find out about the U6 Saiyan's or Hit that way. FFS, Cabba is a young, seemingly inexperienced rookie who can rofl stomp SS3 Vegetto, how the flying spaghetti monsters fuck balls does he not know about a species of strong fighters literally right next door?!

And don't tell me Whis can't find that stuff out, he can go back into the past and learn about an event he wasn't even present for, I'm pretty sure he could learn about strong fighters in U6.

Wouldn't that basically confirm that Merged Zamasu is stronger than Beerus?

They rank him as a bigger threat than Beerus. Beerus has 9 stars while MZ has 12.

Pretty sure that's not a strength thing, since Freeza has more stars than Hit and Black has the same number of stars as Merged Zamasu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Agreed with that.
Btw I must ask this again:

Oh, sorry for not replying sooner.

V-Jump had a two-page article recently which determined the threat level of every Super antagonist so far from Beerus to Merged Zamasu. It said that MZs power was so great no one could touch
Given what happens to him in the series proper that's hilariously wrong in every possible way.

Wouldn't that basically confirm that Merged Zamasu is stronger than Beerus?

Black has the same stars as Merged Zamasu, and we know Merged Zamasu is stronger than Black, and that Beerus is also stronger than Black. But Zamasu (in general) is more dangerous because he wants to kill all mortals and is evil, unlike Beerus.

Those who think that current Base Goku or even SSJ Goku is stronger than Godku, please answer this question:
Why was Godku the (second?) strongest person Beerus fought when he could just go to U6 and fight Cabba, Maggeta and even Frost?

Beerus can't "just go" to other universes and fight their mortals. Remember how Champa & Vados were secretly going around U7? He also has barely any idea about the other universes' fighters.

[ekrolo2]

In a hypothetical scenario where Toriyama kept the movie's system for powers, so Base => SSGod and Blue is the only Super Saiyan form, where would you guys stack up the U6 & Black arc fighters? This is also taking into account the 6-10-15.

Personally, I think Hit would already be in spitting distance of Beerus' max with Black, Merged Zamasu and Vegetto going over even Whis.

[TheUltimateNinja]

In a hypothetical scenario where Toriyama kept the movie's system for powers, so Base => SSGod and Blue is the only Super Saiyan form, where would you guys stack up the U6 & Black arc fighters? This is also taking into account the 6-10-15.

Personally, I think Hit would already be in spitting distance of Beerus' max with Black, Merged Zamasu and Vegetto going over even Whis.

Goku surpasses Beerus and even Whis no matter what at the tournament unless we remove the Kaioken, in which case he's still stronger than Beerus. In the FT Arc, everyone would surpass Whis.

What do you guys think of this new power scale? 1-50-100

[ChiefWamsutta]

Arale vs. SSB Goku who is stronger?

Excluding the fact that Arale is a gag character. Beerus seemed to be ready and capable to kill her before his stomach hurt.

[DBZ Macky]

Arale vs. SSB Goku who is stronger?

Excluding the fact that Arale is a gag character. Beerus seemed to be ready and capable to kill her before his stomach hurt.

I'd say Arale wins quite easily. Maybe Vegetto could put up a better fight.

[Pantalones]

Arale vs. SSB Goku who is stronger?

When using actual logic: Super Saiyan Blue Goku is stronger, of course. Arale was only ever stated to be "probably" still stronger than 23rd Budokai Goku. And even if you take her gags seriously (like punching a crack through the entire Earth...) there's still no reason to put her anywhere near the level of somebody who could accidentally destroy the universe with punch-shockwaves -- that stuff might elevate her into the Buu saga power-wise, but even then she'd never beat any form of Buu because their regeneration would just be too much and she'd end up turned into a pink gummi poop before she could do anything. Which Buu would make a weird face at and stomp rather than eating because... well, he doesn't want to eat poop even if it is candy. XD

Of course, the answer you get when using "hurr durr gag characters is unbeatable because... hurr durr, they's gag characters, lol!" logic instead is what we saw in the most recent episode: that they're somehow equal, or Arale might somehow be stronger, depending on just how intensely the writers (or more commonly, fan-artists) happen to be hurring and durring at the moment. Thankfully, it seems that Beerus overwhelms even the power of "hurr durr unbeatable gag characters!" crap and could've easily destroyed her if the looming threat of explosive diarrhea hadn't reared its ugly head before he could charge his blast.

[DBZ Macky]

When using actual logic: Super Saiyan Blue Goku is stronger, of course.

Well, from whatever feats we have seen from this episode, Arale's attack and SSGSS Goku's Kamehameha were evenly matched... and then Arale quite casually amps her attack's power by 100x, which even surprises Goku.
Although I got the implications of Beerus being stronger than Arale.

"Ghost or not, there is nothing that Beerus-sama can't destroy"
How do you guys take this line? It seems to me that Beerus hasn't been surpassed by Vegetto yet, but that might just be wishful thinking on my behalf.

[Bullza]

The anime never showed or implied that Trunks is higher than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, so you made that up base on your bias.

What bias? That doesn't make sense. If SSJ3 Gotenks can not budge Base Vegeta but SSJ2 Trunks holding back can budge SSJ2 Goku and Black who are tens of times stronger then he's stronger.

You've argument of "Goku let himself be pushed back" is just silly.

You're also ignoring that base Black didn't take Trunks seriously and we saw a weaker Black in a flashback destroy Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Saying that Trunks got a giant increased since then was never implied. Only for Black who specifically said to get stronger every time they fight.

It doesn't matter if he didn't take him seriously. Copy Vegeta didn't take Gotenks seriously, he still didn't move. Again you're ignoring what was shown. Yes Black destroyed SSJ2 Trunks when they first fought. They fought several times after that and by the lastest fight he was not as easily destroyed.

They don't need to state the obvious.

He's weaker, otherwise he would have sensed God ki like base form Goku and true form Freeza.

Yet again not giving any explanation on why Frieza could sense God Ki. You keep saying the same thing as if it's true when it clearly isn't.

And Toriyama never stated that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. The only thing we can guess from the outline is that they sparred, Goku goes to his second highest form, and the he smashes Trunks.

No youre picking specific details out there. We can guess that Goku required to use the Super Saiyan 2 form. They sparred, Trunks had the upper hand, Goku proceeded to a further form, Trunks powered to his full power and then Goku smashed Trunks. Similar events happened in both versions.

You keep using Copy Vegeta no selling Gotenks, yet ignore that Super Saiyan 3 Goku one-shoted Trunks, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't apparently.

No that's not what the Gotenks comparison was about. DBZ characters are so pitifully weak when compared to even low end Super characters that they can't even budge them or they get taken out with finger flicks or pokes like they were nothing.

Trunks more than budged characters far above this low end level and withstood attacks far far above it.

This isn't just an one off statement from Whis that got forgotten by Toei.

Well it actually it is a one off statement as nothing like that was mentioned again. Frieza could sense God Ki but only in Golden form. In his Final Form where he's as strong as Base Goku he cannot sense it at all. Hit seemingly can as well but there was no indication that anyone else on the team could.

Yet, he sensed Vegetto after getting a form on par with Goku and Vegeta's strongest form.

But he wasn't in that form when he sensed it. He was in his much weaker Base form and you can't say that because he'd surpassed that form at one point that he could now sense it in any form because that was not true of Frieza.

[HeroR]

The anime never showed or implied that Trunks is higher than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks, so you made that up base on your bias.

What bias? That doesn't make sense. If SSJ3 Gotenks can not budge Base Vegeta but SSJ2 Trunks holding back can budge SSJ2 Goku and Black who are tens of times stronger then he's stronger.

You've argument of "Goku let himself be pushed back" is just silly.

You're also ignoring that base Black didn't take Trunks seriously and we saw a weaker Black in a flashback destroy Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Saying that Trunks got a giant increased since then was never implied. Only for Black who specifically said to get stronger every time they fight.

It doesn't matter if he didn't take him seriously. Copy Vegeta didn't take Gotenks seriously, he still didn't move. Again you're ignoring what was shown. Yes Black destroyed SSJ2 Trunks when they first fought. They fought several times after that and by the lastest fight he was not as easily destroyed.

They don't need to state the obvious.

He's weaker, otherwise he would have sensed God ki like base form Goku and true form Freeza.

Yet again not giving any explanation on why Frieza could sense God Ki. You keep saying the same thing as if it's true when it clearly isn't.

And Toriyama never stated that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. The only thing we can guess from the outline is that they sparred, Goku goes to his second highest form, and the he smashes Trunks.

No youre picking specific details out there. We can guess that Goku required to use the Super Saiyan 2 form. They sparred, Trunks had the upper hand, Goku proceeded to a further form, Trunks powered to his full power and then Goku smashed Trunks. Similar events happened in both versions.

You keep using Copy Vegeta no selling Gotenks, yet ignore that Super Saiyan 3 Goku one-shoted Trunks, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta couldn't apparently.

No that's not what the Gotenks comparison was about. DBZ characters are so pitifully weak when compared to even low end Super characters that they can't even budge them or they get taken out with finger flicks or pokes like they were nothing.

Trunks more than budged characters far above this low end level and withstood attacks far far above it.

This isn't just an one off statement from Whis that got forgotten by Toei.

Well it actually it is a one off statement as nothing like that was mentioned again. Frieza could sense God Ki but only in Golden form. In his Final Form where he's as strong as Base Goku he cannot sense it at all. Hit seemingly can as well but there was no indication that anyone else on the team could.

Yet, he sensed Vegetto after getting a form on par with Goku and Vegeta's strongest form.

But he wasn't in that form when he sensed it. He was in his much weaker Base form and you can't say that because he'd surpassed that form at one point that he could now sense it in any form because that was not true of Frieza.

You're being bias in that you think that just because Goku didn't just sit there and no sell Trunks' attack means that he much be stronger than Gotenks, when the anime never implied such a thing. Especially since Goku wasn't even trying. Again, if we used the logic you keep implying here, Super Saiyan 3 Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta since Goku one-shotted Trunks when Vegeta didn't.

So you're saying that Black got weaker since Super Saiyan Trunks punched him? Only Black has implied to gain power boost, not Trunks, and certainly not by the amount you're trying to imply. Vegeta wasn't trying, but Black likes to play with his food so he can get stronger. Otherwise, base form Trunks would have died in Episode 47.

Whis gave the explanation. You need to be at a certain level to sense god ki. True form Freeza was at that level. If Trunks couldn't do it, he isn't even on that level.

We can't guess nothing since Goku never showed needed Super Saiyan 2 in the anime. Especially when he only used it to show Trunks that he could ascend too. And how did Trunks have the upper hand when Goku did nothing but block and didn't get distress and only went Super Saiyan 3 to show off since he easily caught Trunks' fists? Trunks never had the upper hand at any time, so you literally made that up.

And you again ignore my Super Saiyan 3 example since by our logic Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta should have finger flick Trunks and laid him flat. Copy Vegeta chose to no sell, while Goku chose to block. In both cases, they did no damage and neither took their opponent seriously.

It didn't have to be mention again since we actually see Whis' statement in practice. Freeza, Hit, Goku, and Vegeta, all mortals, can sense god ki. Goku and Vegeta can sense god ki in their base that doesn't have god ki. Freeza with no god training and is new to ki sensing can sense god ki. This isn't rocket science. The series have shown that if you're at least as strong as Goku and Vegeta's base forms or in that level, you can sense god ki. Trunks couldn't, so he isn't at that level even as a Super Saiyan 2. And true form Freeza did sense god ki.

Trunks' base form obviously went up since he got his new form. Which is why he can now sense god ki when he couldn't. The writers would have made a big deal of Trunks, 'I can't sense' to, 'what powerful ki' if it wasn't important, especially since the Future Trunks Saga was basically written by one person.

[dbgtFO]

Oh, sorry for not replying sooner.

V-Jump had a two-page article recently which determined the threat level of every Super antagonist so far from Beerus to Merged Zamasu. It said that MZs power was so great no one could touch
Given what happens to him in the series proper that's hilariously wrong in every possible way.

Thanks for the info!

[Bullza]

You're being bias in that you think that just because Goku didn't just sit there and no sell Trunks' attack means that he much be stronger than Gotenks, when the anime never implied such a thing. Especially since Goku wasn't even trying.

The anime definitley implied it by showing that SSJ3 Gotenks is so weak that punching, kicking and blasting a character like Copy Base Vegeta can not move him even when he's just standing there with his arms folded but SSJ2 Trunks whilst holding back can push back SSJ2 Goku whose tens of times stronger.

The only one who was implied to be holding back was Trunks.

Again, if we used the logic you keep implying here, Super Saiyan 3 Goku is stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta since Goku one-shotted Trunks when Vegeta didn't.

That's nothing a like at all. That's two completely different things.

So you're saying that Black got weaker since Super Saiyan Trunks punched him? Only Black has implied to gain power boost, not Trunks, and certainly not by the amount you're trying to imply.

I wasn't really implyingnhe improved by any certain amount. He improved as much as what we saw. He went from being weak enough to be beaten in one attack to not being beaten by several attacks and forcing Black to guard himself.

Whis gave the explanation. You need to be at a certain level to sense god ki. True form Freeza was at that level. If Trunks couldn't do it, he isn't even on that level.

Final Form Frieza was at that level and yet he couldn't sense God Ki.

We can't guess nothing since Goku never showed needed Super Saiyan 2 in the anime. Especially when he only used it to show Trunks that he could ascend too.

No nothing like that was said at all. Trunks turned into a SSJ2 and Goku said "Then I will to". There was nothing to imply that Goku was showing him that he was capable to turning into that or any comment from Trunks about Goku being able to turn into that. Just like against Zamasu and Black he transformed to that level because he required to be at that level.

And how did Trunks have the upper hand when Goku did nothing but block and didn't get distress and only went Super Saiyan 3 to show off since he easily caught Trunks' fists?

Again nothing said at all about him showing off, he powered after Trunks commented on Black doing the same. Trunks had the upper hand in that he was pushing Goku back, I didn't say anythimg about him being miles ahead of him so it'd cause Goku any distress. He was strong to force him back while not at full power.

It's not as clear as the manga but the idea is the exact same.

Copy Vegeta chose to no sell, while Goku chose to block. In both cases, they did no damage and neither took their opponent seriously.

They didn't choose. Copy Vegeta didn't have to block because Gotenks simply couldn't have hurt him no matter what he did to him. Goku blocked because Trunks could have hurt him if he'd hit him.

The series have shown that if you're at least as strong as Goku and Vegeta's base forms or in that level, you can sense god ki.

Final Form Frieza was that strong as he couldn't. Trunks is stronger and he couldn't. Cabba, Frost and Magetta are stronger and there was nothing to imply they could either.

And true form Freeza did sense god ki.

And still not explaining why.

Trunks' base form obviously went up since he got his new form.

That's not how that works nor how it has ever worked. The Base strenght does not increase when they obtain new stronger forms. All Trunks' new form even seems to be is his Ultra Super Saiyan 2 form condensed to normal and even though the USSJ form does give a boost it never boosted them to that extent.

So the Base strenght would be unchanged. Obviously he didn't get well over 100 times stronger in a couple days. In fact before he got this new form his base form was already superior to SSJ Kid Trunks as it should be.

[ChiefWamsutta]

*snip*

*snip*

Okay, I just wanted to comment here because I've been reading your guys' posts back-and-forth to each other. You both keep repeating your same points, so in order to progress the dialogue better you'll need to approach it differently.

I really like this discussion, but the style you guys are doing is not easily digestible for anyone. Why don't you just start by arguing one important point?

How about this? Bullza, you believe that Future Trunks went from Dabura's level of power to greater than SSGod*2 (which would be Goku's New SS2 level). Why do you believe Future Trunks was able to gain such a power boost?

[Marlowe89]

They rank him as a bigger threat than Beerus. Beerus has 9 stars while MZ has 12.

Other than Black having the same amount of stars as Merged Zamasu, the chart seems to check out at first glance. Kinda wish Toei would just go ahead and create a comprehensive power chart for everyone as opposed to just using vague 'threat' ratings.

Until then, subjectivity will have to suffice. I'm still personally going to have Merged Zamasu above Beerus until the series states/suggests otherwise.

[Doctor.]

In a hypothetical scenario where Toriyama kept the movie's system for powers, so Base => SSGod and Blue is the only Super Saiyan form, where would you guys stack up the U6 & Black arc fighters? This is also taking into account the 6-10-15.

Personally, I think Hit would already be in spitting distance of Beerus' max with Black, Merged Zamasu and Vegetto going over even Whis.

Goku/Vegeta: 6
-- SSB: 7.5

Golden Freeza: 7.7

Cabba: 6
-- SS: 6.5

Magetta: 6.6

Botamo: 4

Hit: 7.7

Black: 6.5
-- SSR: 8

Zamasu: 6.5

Merged Zamasu: 11

Vegetto: 8
-- SSB: 14

The scale is too small, it doesn't work well.

[DBZ Macky]

Kinda wish Toei would just go ahead and create a comprehensive power chart for everyone as opposed to just using vague 'threat' ratings.

Yes, me too. Although I'm sure some people would still want to disregard it if their beloved Vegetto was still weaker than Beerus. And Toei shouldn't give ANY numbers, not even numerical comparisons. Because then we'll get stuff like Freeza thinking he can beat Goku with a Battle Power of 1,300,000.

I think we need a really just Dragon Ball Super guide which tells about everything that happened off screen, like Trunks becoming God level from being just Dabura level, Tagoma getting so strong just because he was tortured for 4 months, Gohan losing his Ultimate power-up when he was all fine and dandy in BoG, Piccolo becoming strong enough to put up a fight against Frost's Final Form even though he got pwned by Tagoma a few days ago.

[Dai-Saiyajin]

Nothing to do with this topic, but based on the last episode, Arale=Zeno