dragon boss z wrote:After Goku said he was using 80% of his power he never fought as a SSG...
Watch the fight again. Goku says he was using 80% of his full power, Beerus says he will raise his speed, they start fighting briefly, Beerus asks if he is serious now, Goku responds that he is serious now, he reverts back to base, but he still keeps fighting like he did before, and even manages to land a hit with Shunkan Ido.
As for not realizing his power changing he was in the middle of a fight and I don't think it dropped a crazy amount.
Well, dropping to 5 from 6 is a big decrease already. Beerus used up to 70% of his power, so their fight was 6 vs 7, and Goku couldn't even scratch him or make him sweat. For other fights, look at Vegeta vs base Zarbon. This was a 24.000 vs 23.000, Vegeta was on a different level with an around x1.04 difference.
I know this, but him saying Goku's power didn't decrease much was probably him talking about Goku's max, which would be as a ssj. Right after Goku went back to base he was clearly losing, and then after going ssj he started to hold his own again even pushing Beerus back. In base form he had to result to hit and run tactics.
He was losing as a SSG as well. SS probably made a difference because he became more aggresive, which is also important in a fight, like he did better against Beerus' ki ball when he became more aggressive & turned into a SSG again. Beerus specifically said that Goku managed to keep most of the power after SSG disappeared.
What did Toriyama say exactly about Goku not needing SSG? I only remember him saying Goku wouldn't need ssj2 and 3 anymore. Also Goku doesn't need SSG anymore because he has SSB.
Different interview. Here is what he said:
Akira Toriyama wrote:Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so
there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.
He isn't saying that he doesn't need the ritual, he is specifically saying that Goku doesn't need the form any longer. When fighting, he was equally unable to land a hit against Beerus in SSG & base, but did better as a SS because he was more aggressive. Against Beerus' ki ball, he was equally unable to push it in SS & base, but he managed to destroy it as a SSG because he was more aggressive. And we have Beerus implying that Goku absorbed the SSG power in his base form, and his power decreased insignificantly. So combine all these, and we get that transforming into regular SS & SSG is useless, which Toriyama supports in his interviews. The promotional material for FnF support this even further. The FnF manga adaptation shows SSG behind base Goku, which confirms the implications from BoG that Goku has most of the SSG power. Dragon Ball Heroes says that base Goku has become a Saiyan who has surpassed God, which is reasonable to assume if Goku was insignificantly weaker than SSG back in BoG & has trained even more under Whis. DBZ: Dokkan Battle has Whis saying that SSG won't make a difference, and that to become stronger Goku must learn to turn into SSB. All these are already implied in the movies, the promotional material just make them even more obvious.
This is what seems to have happened in the movie continuity: Goku (and later Vegeta) absorbed the power of SSG in his base form, and became insignificantly weaker in his base form. Turning from regular Super Saiyan up to Super Saiyan God barely makes a difference after that. After further training, he became stronger than he was as a God in his base form, and his SS form evolved into SSB. So SSB, which is now his regular SS form, is the only form that can make him significantly stronger now. The difference between base/SSG & SSB isn't that monstrous though, since SSG Goku was equal to 60% Beerus, while both SSB Goku & Vegeta together can only rival 100% Beerus, and SSB Goku alone is a little weaker than Golden Freeza, who is still weaker than Beerus.
If you don't like this & find it hard to believe, that's probably why it was retconned in Super.
Showing SSG behind him just means he has some of it's power. It's just like when Goku had the Oozaru behind him when he killed King Piccolo. That didn't mean Goku got his 10x Oozaru boost though.
Yes, but we don't have other implications that Goku is as strong as an Oozaru though.
I agree with you here and that the multipliers don't automatically combine. However it is pretty clear than Goku didn't just get 50% stronger when he went Blue.
Based on what? Base Vegeta could effortlessly repel a full power ki blast (it was confirmed to be at full power in Toriyama's script) from a tired Golden Freeza, and even control its direction to hit Sorbet, yet he still had to transform into a SSB to kick his ass, and Golden Freeza slowly fell to that level from being at a level above SSB. So, even the movie shows that the level isn't that monstrous to begin with, and that's probably why the next year, Super retconned things & brought back SS1/2/3 to being relevant in order to widden the gap between base & SSB and made Beerus stronger than he was in the movies to widden the gap between SSG, SSB, and Beerus.
Also in Xenoverse when you pick SSB Goku or Vegeta they mention how that is a power beyond SSG. If their base was already beyond SSG that wouldn't make sense.
Well, SSB is the tramsformation that is beyond SSG, but that doesn't mean that they can't surpass the level of SSG in their base form. Besides, the statement that places base above SSG apparently compares FnF base Goku with BoG SSG Goku. If FnF Goku was to turn SSG, he would get slightly stronger according to what we saw in BoG.
Also Goku had to go SSG one last time to stop Beeru's attack. I think this is enough evidence to say that SSG is at least a bit stronger than Goku's base during battle of gods.
Toriyama said that the form is useless, so it was because of Goku being aggressive, not because he transformed. The reason he transformed was most likely in order to show us that Goku can now use the form without the ritual, but Toriyama confirms that he doesn't need it anymore.
