At this point, since different media in the franchise contradict each other, I feel like different canons exist, but what comprises each of them fluctuates depending on how I feel about it.
I can see Super as part of a shared canon with Kai, but among the canons which I consider to be "the original story", which are the original 42-volume manga canon and the original anime+TV specials (and depending on the day, GT) canon, I feel Super, anime or manga, doesn't belong to any of them.
For me, Super is an interesting side story. Make of that what you will
mabalia wrote:I like the ideas behind each arcs DBS has showed us, what I didn't like was their execution it should've been better in that regard. Goku's characterization is the worst portrayal I've seen of him from the series, he's not like manga Goku nor like dbz anime Goku, they regressed his character to remind us of that kid Goku isolated in a forest, alienated of how society works and what human culture is.
And I don't blame this only on Toei, I think Toriyama is also responsable for this revisited Goku who's different to how he wrote him in the past, if we take toriyama's recent interviews in consideration. And it's hard to take his opinion that serious nowadays when he always excuse himself saying he forgets things, characters from his own manga (I try to analyze what he says in his interviews, if a new information don't contradict his manga I accept it, if contradicts I ignore).
So I accept the events of super during the 10 years as canon, not exactly in the way it was done but knowing BOG, Freeza, Champa tournament and Zamasu happened at that time.
It's interesting that GT had Goku turn into a child, but keep his adult mind ( more or less) and Super has Goku keep his adult body but revert to a child's mentality.
Toriyama is like the case study on how content creators don't automatically know more about their own series than the fans.
Has any fan you ever met confused SS2 for SS3? Even the most casual of fans don't make that mistake. His power comparison for the BoG movies, his statement about Goku not using SS2 or SS3 anymore- it's all crap. Take his staments with a massive grain of salt.
As for cannon, it really depends on how it fits into the 10 year time skip. If super retcons the original ending, I'd probably still consider the original ending to be cannon in my heart.
If Super somehow fits into the original continuity- then I'll take it.
Yeah. Toriyama is a very talented artist, he's great to provide expansion to the story, the new characters he created are good (I like Beerus, Whis, Jaco and so many others) but the portrayal of the old ones feels disconected, especially Goku, the character is reduced to his most basic traits and regressed his development in the Buu arc and the others arcs before too. It's a shame because he's the main character and a fan favorite.
At least we still have Toyotaro and honestly I trust him to make a good work in the franchise, he's a dragon ball fan and a Goku fan, I feel he's very conected to the series with a good grasp of the characters.
(And Toyotaro is more likely to Know the answer to those types of questions/comments that made Toriyama wonder who's Tao Pai Pai for exemple )
I only consider BOG canon it did present the whole god thing perfectly and maybe the characters from Suoer to exist.But the bad written fanfiction arcs Toriyama has done its really hard to consider it even though its has poetential.
I consider it like GT (fanfic). Don't get me wrong I enjoyed this arc, but I just can't accept something like the Trunks outcome. To me Trunks is resting in peace somewhere in the future after killing Androids.
After all he went through, I'd like to think the "hope" in his time machine, wasn't useless. I don't mind darkness, but unnecessary darkness is something else.
Ssenrof wrote:Toriyama is like the case study on how content creators don't automatically know more about their own series than the fans.
It's been 20 years since the original ended so Toriyama isn't the same person he was before.
In the original he tried to connect everything together to make it feel like one planned out story (he says this in an interview) while 20 years later now, he isn't doing that but instead is just having fun in the world he created and is doing things that don't really make much sense.
I think this would happen to any creator and franchise after coming out of retirement after 2 decades so fans shouldn't expect the same thing they got that long ago cause the chances of that happening are slim to non.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
The series is canon. I don't understand people saying things like it, "feels like bad fanfiction" or "it doesn't feel official."
You could easily say that about anything that happened in Dragonball Z. Goku suddenly being an alien, Androids and Cell, Buu eating people, Fusion, Goku having a son, a transformation that makes your hair blonde, etc.
If Super's storylines happened 20 years ago after the Buu arc none of you would bat an eye.
precita wrote:If Super's storylines happened 20 years ago after the Buu arc none of you would bat an eye.
That's because it would've been better in every possible way.
Assuming the storylines played out nearly identical, I think everything that happened now would be accepted if it happened back in 1995/1996 right after the Buu arc in the manga.
precita wrote:Assuming the storylines played out nearly identical...
It wouldn't, characters like Piccolo and Gohan wouldn't be thrown to the side, characters would've continued to develop, there characters' looks would've changed from one arc to the other, it would've kept moving the story forward after the 28th tenkaichi, it's arcs would be more connected to one another & they wouldn't have been rushed.
There are probably more but these are what I can think of now.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
The problem with Super is that it's Toriyama's nephew not child. He's too removed from the final product, and other writer have to fill in the holes, making a giant clusterfuck. In addition, it's made 20 years after, when Toriyama forgot about Launch and Merc. Tao a few chapters after he'd written about them.
Again, not saying anything about the show being bad (because I don't think it is though it clearly has massive problems).
DragonHermit wrote:The problem with Super is that it's Toriyama's nephew not child. He's too removed from the final product, and other writer have to fill in the holes, making a giant clusterfuck.
This is another major difference between Super and the original, I think if Toriyama worked on it as a full weekly manga with Toyotoro then the final result would've been better.
July 9th 2018 will be remembered as the day Broly became canon.
precita wrote:The series is canon. I don't understand people saying things like it, "feels like bad fanfiction" or "it doesn't feel official."
You could easily say that about anything that happened in Dragonball Z. Goku suddenly being an alien, Androids and Cell, Buu eating people, Fusion, Goku having a son, a transformation that makes your hair blonde, etc.
If Super's storylines happened 20 years ago after the Buu arc none of you would bat an eye.
That's an interesting point, people would be yelling. "Remember Zamasu? he was deep, nothing can top that Vegito vs Zamasu animation."
I consider the anime canon. I know quite a few people choose to canonize the movies over their Super counterparts since they're, well...better, but I can't rationalize that when the inconsistencies are a result of Toei readapting their own work and making conscious decisions to redo things. (Like Goku powering down from Blue before he gets shot by the laser ring.)
I consider aspects of the manga canon when they're compatible with the anime, like the knowledge that Pilaf's gang made their youth wish during the Android saga, but only then.
Yes. All of it from the good to the bad. Zamasu, Beerus, Jaco and Pink glob monster alike
In fact the only thing I'd consider non canon from Super is arguably the Arale episode from this week because it leans so heavily on the fourth wall it feels like when Steven Universe crossed over with Uncle Grandpa. Arale herself is canon to the Dragon World though in my mind lest we screw up the whole Red Ribbon Army arc.
Favourite User quote:
Vice wrote:"Look at all these characters getting some shine in the buildup for the tournament of power, maybe we'll get to see some other characters do some stuff instead of the same old shit."
1. Goku (Universe 7) has eliminated 6 competitor & Vegeta (Universe 7) has eliminated 6 competitors
Well, to me, the manga is. I believe Toyotarou is doing a much better job in general than Toei is, so I've decided that for me, his telling of the story is the correct one. I also have it so that if/when Super makes itself impossible to fit with EoZ, I'm going to consider it non-canon.
Probably Kanzenshuu's biggest Bulla fangirl. Current avatar: DBU Bulla as Sailor Princess Sadala, based on Sailor Moon: Cosmic Dance
Dragon Ball Ultimate - 74 out of 150 chapters complete JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Action Blue - link Sailor Moon: Mindful of Love - link | Sailor Moon: Cosmic Dance - link
I can't speak for anyone else, but I won't--can't--accept BOG, Super, Xenoverse, anything like that. It has too many problems for me:
Trying to poorly retcon things from the original continuity; classic characters are portrayed badly or ignored; the new characters are pretty much all unpleasant jackasses who get shilled and worshiped (I remember when characters who blew up planets were the bad guys!).
DragonHermit wrote:...but I just can't accept something like the Trunks outcome. [...] After all he went through, I'd like to think the "hope" in his time machine, wasn't useless. I don't mind darkness, but unnecessary darkness is something else.
This too; Mirai Trunks is probably my favorite character in the whole franchise, so I refuse to settle for him getting anything less than a happy ending. Hell, I'd rather think of him returning to past and settling down in a permanent ménage à trois with Gohan and Videl than what Super or Xenoverse depict.
Thanos6 wrote:This too; Mirai Trunks is probably my favorite character in the whole franchise, so I refuse to settle for him getting anything less than a happy ending. Hell, I'd rather think of him returning to past and settling down in a permanent ménage à trois with Gohan and Videl than what Super or Xenoverse depict.
I agree that the end of his story arc is a bummer, but you can always imagine that the Future Trunks we've seen in Super comes from yet another alternate timeline, and is not the Future Trunks we remember from DBZ.
The whole Time Ring stuff makes it pretty easy to imagine. There have been previous incursions with time: one of them could have split Super Trunks's timeline from DBZ Trunks's timeline.
I enjoy it enough that I consider it an extension of the original story. So, yes, I guess it's canon to me.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
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