Can Kaioshin be sensed?

[ahill1]

I mean, can he be sensed by Goku and the others? This quote from Vegeta likely points out for him being unable to be sensed.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”


If the answer is no, how can you guys be so sure Kaioshin > Piccolo?

[dragon boss z]

I mean, can he be sensed by Goku and the others? This quote from Vegeta likely points out for him being unable to be sensed.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2
Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins
Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...”


If the answer is no, how can you guys be so sure Piccolo > Kaioshin?

I'm pretty sure Piccolo admitted he was weaker than Kaioshin.

[Adrian Malacoda]

how can you guys be so sure Piccolo > Kaioshin?

I thought it was the other way around (Kaioshin stronger than Piccolo), unless that's what you meant? Piccolo outright says Kaioshin is stronger than he, although you're probably wondering how exactly Piccolo can tell this given that Kaioshin can't apparently be sensed. This would imply either that Piccolo can't sense him either and is just assuming Kaioshin is his superior due to his status, or that Piccolo alone can sense him and the rest can't. Note that Piccolo's statement about Kaioshin's power is a response to a question from Goku, implying that Goku can't sense Kaioshin either.

[ahill1]

Oops... yeah, I meant to say Kaioshin > Piccolo. That's the problem, there's nothing indicating Kaioshin can be sensed and some good points that he cannot be sensed. So how can you guys use Piccolo's line as evidence of this latter's inferiority when he had no ways of gauge the Lord of Lord's power?

[Hugo Boss]

Oops... yeah, I meant to say Kaioshin > Piccolo. That's the problem, there's nothing indicating Kaioshin can be sensed and some good points that he cannot be sensed. So how can you guys use Piccolo's line as evidence of this latter's inferiority when he had no ways of gauge the Lord of Lord's power?

Perhaps an old memory from the former God?

[ahill1]

Perhaps an old memory from the former God?

Well, yeah, Piccolo suspected that Kaioshin was the Great Lord of Worlds and the same Kaioshin said Piccolo must be beginning to figure out who he was based on him being the former God, so the former Kami must have been influencing Piccolo's decision in some way. But there's nothing indicating Kami knew exactly how strong these high Gods were, with Kaio-Sama saying he only heard rumors of the Kaioshins.

Even if we assume Kamiccolo judged his strength based on his status as a God, the odds are high that he was only overestimating him, as said by Vegeta:

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”
Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...”

[Hugo Boss]

Perhaps an old memory from the former God?

Well, yeah, Piccolo suspected that Kaioshin was the Great Lord of Worlds and the same Kaioshin said Piccolo must be beginning to figure out who he was based on him being the former God, so the former Kami must have been influencing Piccolo's decision in some way. But there's nothing indicating Kami knew exactly how strong these high Gods were, with Kaio-Sama saying he only heard rumors of the Kaioshins.

Anyway, the point is that Kaioshin is supposed to be a very strong being and, despite the absence of clarification about his real power, the story goes in the direction that only the Saiyans surpassed his power in the human realm. How can it somehow imply Piccolo is equal or above is beyond what is told.

[ahill1]

Well the point is that many people use Piccolo's statement as a flat out official stuff that confirm Piccolo < Kaioshin, but if this latter couldn't be sensed I don't know why people put much so much stock into that statement. The first thing I want to clarify is whether Kaioshin could be sensed by Picc, Goku or no.

[Kaboom]

Retroactively, we can probably just assume that Kaioshin uses godly ki and that only someone with similar godly qualities could accurately sense and gauge his power. Maybe Piccolo could at least feel the same "pressure" that inhibited Vegeta when he came face-to-face with Beerus. It's not a perfect explanation and it's 99% from hindsight, but it works. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was where all these ideas surrounding godly ki came from in the first place.

As for how we can be sure Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo, it's because Piccolo himself said so, the guidebooks soundly and directly confirmed it, and... well, nothing with clout says otherwise.

Even if Piccolo couldn't sense Kaioshin, knowing (or at least guessing) his identity would be enough. If Piccolo suspects that he's facing the Grand Kaioshin, and has some knowledge of how strong the Grand Kaioshin is supposed to be, then it'd be very easy for Piccolo to conclude that he's outmatched. We've really got no reason to doubt his insight, and his only error was actually under-estimating Kaioshin and his rank.

[DanielSSJ]

Retroactively, we can probably just assume that Kaioshin uses godly ki and that only someone with similar godly qualities could accurately sense and gauge his power. Maybe Piccolo could at least feel the same "pressure" that inhibited Vegeta when he came face-to-face with Beerus. It's not a perfect explanation and it's 99% from hindsight, but it works. I wouldn't be surprised at all if that was where all these ideas surrounding godly ki came from in the first place.

As for how we can be sure Kaioshin was stronger than Piccolo, it's because Piccolo himself said so, the guidebooks soundly and directly confirmed it, and... well, nothing with clout says otherwise.

Even if Piccolo couldn't sense Kaioshin, knowing (or at least guessing) his identity would be enough. If Piccolo suspects that he's facing the Grand Kaioshin, and has some knowledge of how strong the Grand Kaioshin is supposed to be, then it'd be very easy for Piccolo to conclude that he's outmatched. We've really got no reason to doubt his insight, and his only error was actually under-estimating Kaioshin and his rank.

Is it possible that Piccolo, as the former God of Earth, was able to sense Kaioshin's power? In Battle of Gods, he was the only one to realized that the power boost that Goku got from absorbing the Saiyans' Ki (sans Pan) wasn't actually a Super Saiyan God, and I have a vague recollection of Dende actually being able to sense Beerus' power in Super's version of Battle of Gods. Of course, Piccolo could've realized that since he could sense Goku's power, that he wasn't radiating God Ki, but still.

[Kaboom]

Is it possible that Piccolo, as the former God of Earth, was able to sense Kaioshin's power?

Probably not, but maybe in some small way? It was made pretty clear when it happened that when his merger with Kami happened, Piccolo himself wouldn't be fundamentally changed in any way besides receiving a power-up along with Kami's knowledge. So technically Piccolo himself was never Earth's god and never had anything to do with godly ki or its users... but he does have the memories of Earth's former god, and with those memories there probably came some intuition.

[Darkprince410]

Is it possible that Piccolo, as the former God of Earth, was able to sense Kaioshin's power? In Battle of Gods, he was the only one to realized that the power boost that Goku got from absorbing the Saiyans' Ki (sans Pan) wasn't actually a Super Saiyan God, and I have a vague recollection of Dende actually being able to sense Beerus' power in Super's version of Battle of Gods. Of course, Piccolo could've realized that since he could sense Goku's power, that he wasn't radiating God Ki, but still.

Super's depiction of events drive in that Piccolo couldn't sense godly ki, wondering on multiple occasions why Dende seemed to be panicking over Beerus when he himself couldn't sense anything. If we go by those events, then it'd make all the more sense to assume that he only determined Goku didn't become the Ssj God because he could still sense his ki.

As for Piccolo with Kaioushin, I never took it as him being able to sense him. His exclamation that Kaioushin was stronger than he was could have simply been his excuse for forfeiting, as a way of keeping Goku from finding out who he though Kaioushin actually was. Or that he simply estimated that Kaioushin (or the Dai Kaiou, as he thought Kaioushin was at the time) would be stronger than he is given his high-tier deity status. He intuitively realized why he couldn't sense Kaioushin, assumed his deity status as the Dai Kaiou, and forfeited.

[DanielSSJ]

I suppose that even if Piccolo couldn't sense Kaioshin's power in a quantifiable manner, he might've felt the same pressure that non-godly characters seem to feel while in the presence of one, like when Vegeta showed Super Saiyan Blue off to Trunks.

[Desassina]

With knowledge comes the realization that if he couldn't be sensed, then he might have been a God, and so he forfeited without even trying. Power is not just the tangible energy running through your veins, but the state of mind and physical condition as well. If Kaioshin was confident that he could win, then his posture and look were signs that Piccolo stood no chance, and the latter took them without necessarily sensing the former. Piccolo was just respectable. He also had something to lose by revealing his true self to the public.