DragonBall Z Abridged

[Boo Machine]

So #15 is

[spoiler]Garlic Jr[/spoiler]

Y'know I'm still not entirely sure why this villains particular saga is so despised. Aside from the action being cut away from quite a bit in the later parts and a certain saga only character being added in that did nothing for anybody, I thought it was enjoyable.

[FoolsGil]

So #15 is

[spoiler]Garlic Jr[/spoiler]

Y'know I'm still not entirely sure why this villains particular saga is so despised. Aside from the action being cut away from quite a bit in the later parts and a certain saga only character being added in that did nothing for anybody, I thought it was enjoyable.

I liked his saga too. Could it have been handled better? Sure. But let's be honest, every saga or movie has spots where things could have been handled better, placing this particular saga lower than the rest of them, doesn't make sense to me.

[RandomGuy96]

How so? An evil tyrant that had ruled the universe by fear for decades, feared and mentioned by many in the present day is a less interesting version of Vegeta? I mean, the latter dreamed to be in the same place as Freeza, as the absolute ruler of the universe.

No he didn't, that's a sloppy retcon. As presented in his own arc, he was the most powerful being in the universe, the undisputed most powerful fighter of the most powerful warrior race, who only wanted for one thing: immortality, so he could enjoy an eternity of violence.

Tell me, mate: how exactly expanding the character backstory is a "sloppy retcon"? I mean sure we didn't know much about Freeza until middle-to-end Namek Arc and TV Special 1, is that so bad?

It's a retcon because Vegeta was explicitly his own boss and the strongest being in the universe in the Saiyan arc. These are both conveniently forgotten about when Freeza shows up. Also, Vegeta's entire motivation is changed- originally he wanted immortality so he could enjoy an eternity of violence. Suddenly he wants it so he can beat Freeza.

And okay Freeza shares some similarities with Vegeta, as many villains that came in the series afterwards, is that bad either?

Yes. Because they don't have "some similarities", they're borderline identical characters in every way except their lexicon.

[Noah]

It's a retcon because Vegeta was explicitly his own boss and the strongest being in the universe in the Saiyan arc. These are both conveniently forgotten about when Freeza shows up. Also, Vegeta's entire motivation is changed- originally he wanted immortality so he could enjoy an eternity of violence. Suddenly he wants it so he can beat Freeza.

How is a retcon if we didn't know jack about Vegeta until later arcs and there is no proof that Toriyama intended to end DB in the Saiyan Arc? Would be really that necessary to introduce Freeza in the Saiyan Arc? Vegeta stating out of nowhere: "by the way I work for a guy that make me his bitch as he is thousand times stronger than me" there is no point to that, Vegeta claiming to be the strongest in the universe in his arc as just he being full of himself with low class fighters. Vegeta wish could serve for both purposes (bold) actually, I don't see a problem with that, it's just expanding the story we knew little before.

[RandomGuy96]

It's a retcon because Vegeta was explicitly his own boss and the strongest being in the universe in the Saiyan arc. These are both conveniently forgotten about when Freeza shows up. Also, Vegeta's entire motivation is changed- originally he wanted immortality so he could enjoy an eternity of violence. Suddenly he wants it so he can beat Freeza.

How is a retcon if we didn't know jack about Vegeta

False. We knew plenty about Vegeta. He explicitly states his own background and motivation. They simply don't line up with what is said about Freeza later, and neither do his and Nappa's actions in this arc, where they behave like their own bosses.

Would be really that necessary to introduce Freeza in the Saiyan Arc? Vegeta stating out of nowhere: "by the way I work for a guy that make me his bitch as he is thousand times stronger than me" there is no point to that, Vegeta claiming to be the strongest in the universe in his arc as just he being full of himself with low class fighters.

False. He thinks to himself that he's the strongest in the universe, rather than bragging about it. Because, when Toriyama was writing the Saiyan arc, he was the strongest in the universe.

[Noah]

False. We knew plenty about Vegeta. He explicitly states his own background and motivation. They simply don't line up with what is said about Freeza later, and neither do his and Nappa's actions in this arc, where they behave like their own bosses.

False? lol don't be silly, mate if you want to prove your point that much, at least show me scans about it. All we knew about Vegeta was that he was the strongest Saiyan in Raditz group and he want to become immortal to be unbeatable.

He thinks to himself that he's the strongest in the universe, rather than bragging about it.

By all the development Vegeta gets later, it's not wrong to assume that he was really bragging about himself, even though he knew that he wasn't the strongest at time. We could even say that by "strongest in the universe" he meant the strongest Saiyan at all.

Because, when Toriyama was writing the Saiyan arc, he was the strongest in the universe.

Well, he was, just like Freeza was once and Majin Boo was too, so no big deal about it either.

[RandomGuy96]

False? lol don't be silly, mate if you want to prove your point that much, at least show me scans about it. All we knew about Vegeta was that he was the strongest Saiyan in Raditz group and he want to become immortal to be unbeatable.

Chapter: 231 (DBZ 37), P1.2, P2.1
Context: after Goku beats him up with the Kaio-Ken x3
Vegeta: “This…this cannot be happening!!! I…I am a Super Elite!! I can not be beaten by some lower-level warrior like him!!! [ ] I am the best in the universe…!!!!”

Vegeta explicitly says that he wants the Dragon Balls so he can enjoy an eternity of violence, nothing to do with beating Freeza. He also casually pursues his own route when the dragon balls come up without so much as considering Freeza- which at least Nappa would do if he was really supposed to be working for someone at the time.

By all the development Vegeta gets later, it's not wrong to assume that he was really bragging about himself, even though he knew that he wasn't the strongest at time. We could even say that by "strongest in the universe" he meant the strongest Saiyan at all.

This is blatantly false. He's not even bragging to anyone, he's thinking to himself when no one else is around.

Well, he was, just like Freeza was once and Majin Boo was too, so no big deal about it either.

There was actually reasoning given in those cases- the Androids and Cell are new, Boo and Beerus were sleeping for thousands of years. For Freeza, there's just nothing, and they throw in a retcon of Vegeta's background and motivation on top of that for the sake of hyping up an inferior clone of him.

[FireFly]

Well, he was, just like Freeza was once and Majin Boo was too, so no big deal about it either.

There was actually reasoning given in those cases- the Androids and Cell are new, Boo and Beerus were sleeping for thousands of years. For Freeza, there's just nothing, and they throw in a retcon of Vegeta's background and motivation on top of that for the sake of hyping up an inferior clone of him.

Majin Boo's shell being left on Earth for millions of years all this time with Bibidi having wanted to conquer Earth way way back is stupid and random considering all the universal threats that have visited Earth without attracting Babidi's notice. Especially when the dude is meticulous enough to convert the king of demons and the like who far surpass the Kaioshin. Gero creating beings that surpass Super Saiyans despite knowing nothing about the form or the conflicts on Namek is completely retarded and just thrown in our faces without a sufficient explanation despite his last known creation being weaker than Tao pai pai.

By comparison, Freeza at least has the virtue of being tied to the supposed belief that a meteor destroyed planet Vegeta, and the organization Vegeta and the Saiyans sold planets off to. All he really was was an expansion of Kaio mentioning that the roots of evil weren't plucked with Vegeta's defeat, even though he effectively reduced Vegeta to a minor player in the bigger scheme of things.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, he was, just like Freeza was once and Majin Boo was too, so no big deal about it either.

There was actually reasoning given in those cases- the Androids and Cell are new, Boo and Beerus were sleeping for thousands of years. For Freeza, there's just nothing, and they throw in a retcon of Vegeta's background and motivation on top of that for the sake of hyping up an inferior clone of him.

Majin Boo's shell being left on Earth for millions of years all this time with Bibidi having wanted to conquer Earth way way back is stupid and random considering all the universal threats that have visited Earth without attracting Babidi's notice. Especially when the dude is meticulous enough to convert the king of demons and the like who far surpass the Kaioshin. Gero creating beings that surpass Super Saiyans despite knowing nothing about the form or the conflicts on Namek is completely retarded and just thrown in our faces without a sufficient explanation despite his last known creation being weaker than Tao pai pai.

Remind me, what was the explanation for Freeza's power again?

All he really was was an expansion of Kaio mentioning that the roots of evil weren't plucked with Vegeta's defeat,

Incorrect, he's an explicit retcon of several plot elements. Not just the one about the meteors, but also Vegeta's position, motivation, and background.

[Noah]

Chapter: 231 (DBZ 37), P1.2, P2.1
Context: after Goku beats him up with the Kaio-Ken x3
Vegeta: “This…this cannot be happening!!! I…I am a Super Elite!! I can not be beaten by some lower-level warrior like him!!! [ ] I am the best in the universe…!!!!”

Well, as you see Vegeta do mentions the hierarchy rank of his people, with that I think it's clear enough that by "the best in the universe" he meant "the best Saiyan"

Vegeta explicitly says that he wants the Dragon Balls so he can enjoy an eternity of violence, nothing to do with beating Freeza. He also casually pursues his own route when the dragon balls come up without so much as considering Freeza- which at least Nappa would do if he was really supposed to be working for someone at the time.

Some could still argue that Vegeta didn't tell Nappa about his plans of betraying Freeza, even though wishing for immortality is explicit indicating that. And Nappa was more loyal to Vegeta than Freeza.

This is blatantly false. He's not even bragging to anyone, he's thinking to himself when no one else is around.

You're talking about the context (bold) you mentioned above? Or there is more? Cause I pretty much answered yet.

For Freeza, there's just nothing, and they throw in a retcon of Vegeta's background and motivation on top of that for the sake of hyping up an inferior clone of him.

If you want to say it's a retcon that's fine, for me it is a expansion of the story we read in the last arc. Still don't see how Freeza is a Vegeta clone, as he actually shows a calm, civilized and refined demeanor, using very polite, eloquent language rather than the more tough-talking style of most previous antagonists like Vegeta.

[RandomGuy96]

Well, as you see Vegeta do mentions the hierarchy rank of his people, with that I think it's clear enough that by "the best in the universe" he meant "the best Saiyan"

That doesn't make any sense. He just refers to himself as the best without any additional qualifiers.

Some could still argue that Vegeta didn't tell Nappa about his plans of betraying Freeza, even though wishing for immortality is explicit indicating that. And Nappa was more loyal to Vegeta than Freeza.

Yet Nappa doesn't even say a word? Come on. It's clear that this is a contradiction of them having a higher boss.

If you want to say it's a retcon that's fine, for me it is a expansion of the story we read in the last arc.

It objectively is a retcon.

Still don't see how Freeza is a Vegeta clone, as he actually shows a calm, civilized and refined demeanor, using very polite, eloquent language rather than the more tough-talking style of most previous antagonists like Vegeta.

Again, identical characters besides their lexicon... which, of course, you defaulted to bringing up in an attempt to find a difference between them. It would be easier to list actual differences in their personalities, few as they are.

[FireFly]

There was actually reasoning given in those cases- the Androids and Cell are new, Boo and Beerus were sleeping for thousands of years. For Freeza, there's just nothing, and they throw in a retcon of Vegeta's background and motivation on top of that for the sake of hyping up an inferior clone of him.

Majin Boo's shell being left on Earth for millions of years all this time with Bibidi having wanted to conquer Earth way way back is stupid and random considering all the universal threats that have visited Earth without attracting Babidi's notice. Especially when the dude is meticulous enough to convert the king of demons and the like who far surpass the Kaioshin. Gero creating beings that surpass Super Saiyans despite knowing nothing about the form or the conflicts on Namek is completely retarded and just thrown in our faces without a sufficient explanation despite his last known creation being weaker than Tao pai pai.

Remind me, what was the explanation for Freeza's power again?

That he was the strongest being in the known universe who also came from the most powerful clan, who bossed around an army containing several mutants who consider the Saiyans to be mostly laughable trash. I can accept him being so powerful and can accept Dabra being so powerful for being the ruler of the demon realm. Not Cell or the shitty cyborgs created from Earth technology which is supposed to have been way below Saiyan standards being way above Freeza.

All he really was was an expansion of Kaio mentioning that the roots of evil weren't plucked with Vegeta's defeat,

Incorrect, he's an explicit retcon of several plot elements. Not just the one about the meteors, but also Vegeta's position, motivation, and background.

So just... Vegeta's character. The same way Taopaipai who said nothing about Goku's turtle school uniform or his Kamehameha was actually the brother of Roshi's rival whose disciple has a technique that literally counters the Kamehameha, and taught him how to fly (which Tao can't). Or Piccolo Daimao being the evil half of a guy who literally made the Dragon Balls without even being taught how, despite not even knowing what they were until Pilaf told him about it.

Freeza's retcon is a common thing in DB, the androids and Boo/Bibidi/Babidi were freaking stupid.

[RandomGuy96]

[
That he was the strongest being in the known universe who also came from the most powerful clan,

That's not an explanation. I asked "why is he the most powerful?", and you literally just responded with "because he is the most powerful".

So just... Vegeta's character. The same way Taopaipai who said nothing about Goku's turtle school uniform or his Kamehameha was actually the brother of Roshi's rival whose disciple has a technique that literally counters the Kamehameha. Or Piccolo Daimao being the evil half of a guy who literally made the Dragon Balls without even being taught how, despite not even knowing what they were until Pilaf told him about it.

"Ha, look at how shitty this writing is! This proves that the other writing isn't shitty!".

[FireFly]

[
That he was the strongest being in the known universe who also came from the most powerful clan,

That's not an explanation. I asked "why is he the most powerful?", and you literally just responded with "because he is the most powerful".

The mutants he bossed around were so strong a member of his elite fighting team beat Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn around like a ragdoll and Ginyu worships Freeza despite being one of the strongest in the universe himself. And Freeza as the leader of that army is presented as a being born with power above them.

Kind of like... Vegeta as an elite Saiyan was above even Raditz and Nappa who were members of a race built for fighting and far above anyone Goku fought previously?

So just... Vegeta's character. The same way Taopaipai who said nothing about Goku's turtle school uniform or his Kamehameha was actually the brother of Roshi's rival whose disciple has a technique that literally counters the Kamehameha. Or Piccolo Daimao being the evil half of a guy who literally made the Dragon Balls without even being taught how, despite not even knowing what they were until Pilaf told him about it.

"Ha, look at how shitty this writing is! This proves that the other writing isn't shitty!".

Shitty to a point that has a precedent. Having basically the same origins as a guy from 20 volumes back like #8 takes it a notch above that and Boo's is no better, especially when both explicitly use Freeza as a benchmark for how strong they are (e.g. Kaioshins can one-shot Freeza, lost to Boo)

[RandomGuy96]

The mutants he bossed around were so strong a member of his elite fighting team beat Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn around like a ragdoll and Ginyu worships Freeza despite being one of the strongest in the universe himself. And Freeza as the leader of that army is presented as a being born with power above them.

So again, "he is because he is"? This isn't an explanation.

Shitty to a point that has a precedent. Having basically the same origins as a guy from 20 volumes back like #8 takes it a notch above that and Boo's is no better, especially when both explicitly use Freeza as a benchmark for how strong they are (e.g. Kaioshins can one-shot Freeza, lost to Boo)

Cell and Buu don't retcon anything from previous arcs.

[FireFly]

The mutants he bossed around were so strong a member of his elite fighting team beat Vegeta, Gohan and Kuririn around like a ragdoll and Ginyu worships Freeza despite being one of the strongest in the universe himself. And Freeza as the leader of that army is presented as a being born with power above them.

So again, "he is because he is"? This isn't an explanation.

We see one in the Freeza arc itself. Ginyu believes Goku might be a mutant which could explain his abnormal power for a Saiyan, the same way being a Saiyan explained Raditz's abnormal power compared to any enemy before him. The boss of Ginyu, a mutant warrior is far above him and Vegeta is far above Raditz. Doesn't create the kind of issues later arcs do.

Shitty to a point that has a precedent. Having basically the same origins as a guy from 20 volumes back like #8 takes it a notch above that and Boo's is no better, especially when both explicitly use Freeza as a benchmark for how strong they are (e.g. Kaioshins can one-shot Freeza, lost to Boo)

Cell and Buu don't retcon anything from previous arcs.

Kaioshin's character alone retcons previous arcs - "I'm the greatest deity in the universe! Higher than God!" - said by a guy who's 2 ranks below Kaioshin. Boo and Bibidi are his old enemy and Babidi conveniently doesn't know shit about any previous arc and has no explanation for why he and Kaioshin just now have mobilized. Even Boo having his fat form is a retcon because previously Kaioshin said 4 of his fellows died, yet later 2 were merely absorbed to transform Boo to that state. Among many other contradictions.

Gero and his entire army is shit because him building robots and cyborgs so powerful when the RRA lost to Goku when he was weaker than Tambourine is laughable. Also, a cyborg version of Freeza isn't as powerful as the cyborg version of an Earthling girl, built on Saiyan arc data and Earth technology.

[Noah]

That doesn't make any sense. He just refers to himself as the best without any additional qualifiers.

Yes, it makes, you just can't reason with it. If Vegeta had just said "How this is happening?! I'm the strongest in the universe!!" I would stand corrected then, but he mentions that he is a Saiyan Elite and Goku is a Low Class warrior, thus indicating that he is talking about Saiyans in general.

Yet Nappa doesn't even say a word? Come on. It's clear that this is a contradiction of them having a higher boss.

Would he have the need to say something? He just follows his leader deeds.

It objectively is a retcon.

That's your opinion only.

Again, identical characters besides their lexicon... which, of course, you defaulted to bringing up in an attempt to find a difference between them. It would be easier to list actual differences in their personalities, few as they are.

And how saying that Freeza is more calm and polite than Vegeta I'm just talking about his lexicon? Freeza is more clever, cruel, ruthless and brutal than Vegeta was portrayed before.

[Sailor Haumea]

So #15 is

[spoiler]Garlic Jr[/spoiler]

Y'know I'm still not entirely sure why this villains particular saga is so despised. Aside from the action being cut away from quite a bit in the later parts and a certain saga only character being added in that did nothing for anybody, I thought it was enjoyable.

I liked his saga too. Could it have been handled better? Sure. But let's be honest, every saga or movie has spots where things could have been handled better, placing this particular saga lower than the rest of them, doesn't make sense to me.

I love Garlic Jr.

If I ever get an avatar, it'll be an image of him.

[Dbzfan94]

If I ever get an avatar, it'll be an image of him.

then you should! The avatar thread is a great place to go for that

[Lunatic Fringe]

#14 is the one and only...

[spoiler]Raditz[/spoiler]