Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

TheUltimateNinja · Post by **TheUltimateNinja** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:11 am

I have decided to go even further in my attempt to make power levels as low as possible, in this list I ignore all numbers except for Raditz' 1,200, and also ignore certain parts of canon like Frieza's 2nd and 3rd forms, Kaioken multipliers above 2x etc.

Spoiler:

apex_pretador · Post by **apex_pretador** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 4:19 am

Sailor Haumea wrote:Here's a new challenge:

Power-scale Z (anime), Super (anime), and GT to these conditions:

1. Movies must be included (Dead Zone before Raditz Saga; World's Strongest, Tree of Might, Lord Slug, and Cooler's Revenge during the three-year training for the Androids; Super Android 13! during the events of episode 147, after Goku tells Vegeta and Trunks about the Chamber, but before they actually enter; The Return of Cooler, The Real 4-D, Broly 1, and Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans during the 10 day wait; Movie 9 after the Other World Saga; Movie 10 between episodes 207 and 208; Movie 11 after Goku returns to Other World; Movie 13 after episode 287; and 2008 OVA after Movie 13. Movie 12 can be excluded - see below).
2. Shin Budokai should be included during the gap between Yo! Son Goku and the start of Super.

Basically, COMPLETELY overhaul the power scaling system to bring the movies, Super, and GT in line with one another.

Any takers for my challenge?

It is not possible to include GT in this. What's shin budokai?
Other than that, I can manage.

Noah wrote:Probably have asked this before, but what is the gap you guys have between C-17 and C-18?

A very small gap. Around 5 million only. (190 vs 195 millin)

Sailor Haumea · Post by **Sailor Haumea** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:04 am

apex_pretador wrote:
Sailor Haumea wrote:Here's a new challenge:

Power-scale Z (anime), Super (anime), and GT to these conditions:

1. Movies must be included (Dead Zone before Raditz Saga; World's Strongest, Tree of Might, Lord Slug, and Cooler's Revenge during the three-year training for the Androids; Super Android 13! during the events of episode 147, after Goku tells Vegeta and Trunks about the Chamber, but before they actually enter; The Return of Cooler, The Real 4-D, Broly 1, and Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans during the 10 day wait; Movie 9 after the Other World Saga; Movie 10 between episodes 207 and 208; Movie 11 after Goku returns to Other World; Movie 13 after episode 287; and 2008 OVA after Movie 13. Movie 12 can be excluded - see below).
2. Shin Budokai should be included during the gap between Yo! Son Goku and the start of Super.

Basically, COMPLETELY overhaul the power scaling system to bring the movies, Super, and GT in line with one another.

Any takers for my challenge?
It is not possible to include GT in this. What's shin budokai?
Other than that, I can manage.
Noah wrote:Probably have asked this before, but what is the gap you guys have between C-17 and C-18?
A very small gap. Around 5 million only. (190 vs 195 millin)

Video game, it's the replacement for Fusion Reborn.

Khin · Post by **Khin** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:32 pm

Where do you guys put Dende ? Seems like only a few people gave him a number.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:48 pm

Khin wrote:Where do you guys put Dende ? Seems like only a few people gave him a number.

I'd say he's at least a thousand or so. He's not a fighter, but nobody gets a potential unlock from the Grand Elder and only ends up with some piddly PL of under 100 or something. The whole point of the unlock was "more power = more speed = reach the Earthlings ASAP," and he was able to streak through the sky with a big fancy flight aura and everything after that.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:51 pm

Dende probably gets put fairly low or simply ignored because of Goku choose Satan as his fusion candidate over Dende.

BlueSky · Post by **Kaboom** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:20 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Dende probably gets put fairly low or simply ignored because of Goku choose Satan as his fusion candidate over Dende.

Yeah, that doesn't make a lick of sense to me. All the things I pointed out pretty much prevents Dende from having some wimpy single-digit power level less than Mr. Satan's, and if Goku was only concerned about raw power level, why did he fuss so much over Mr. Satan being super-weak but only specifically say that Dende's "not a fighter?"

Apparently the rushed conclusion Goku drew was that permanently merging with someone who was super-weak but at least another martial artist and similar in body/size to him was preferable to merging with someone who's stronger but would turn him into some frail mutated halfling with severely impaired fighting skills.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:39 pm

Kaboom wrote:Yeah, that doesn't make a lick of sense to me. All the things I pointed out pretty much prevents Dende from having some wimpy single-digit power level less than Mr. Satan's, and if Goku was only concerned about raw power level, why did he fuss so much over Mr. Satan being super-weak but only specifically say that Dende's "not a fighter?"

Apparently the rushed conclusion Goku drew was that permanently merging with someone who was super-weak but at least another martial artist and similar in body/size to him was preferable to merging with someone who's stronger but would turn him into some frail mutated halfling with severely impaired fighting skills.

I always sorta wished that Goku had fused with Mr. Satan at that point. Partially for the hilarity, but also because of the fact that the result would technically be a Saiyan/Earthling hybrid, and we all know how powerful those can be.

DBZ Macky · Post by **DBZ Macky** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:18 am

DanielSSJ wrote: I always sorta wished that Goku had fused with Mr. Satan at that point. Partially for the hilarity, but also because of the fact that the result would technically be a Saiyan/Earthling hybrid, and we all know how powerful those can be.

I would actually have preferred if Goku fused with Dende.
Was it ever explained why Saiyan-Earthling hybrids were so powerful?
Because, for all we know, a Saiyan-Namekian hybrid could be more powerful than a Saiyan-Earthling hybrid.

That and also the fact that we would get another strong Namekian except for just Piccolo and Nail.

And since this is a power levels thread, I might as well ask for your numbers for the hypothetical fusions, with the fusees and Vegetto as reference.

TheUltimateNinja · Post by **TheUltimateNinja** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:14 am

DBZ Macky wrote: I would actually have preferred if Goku fused with Dende.
Was it ever explained why Saiyan-Earthling hybrids were so powerful?
Because, for all we know, a Saiyan-Namekian hybrid could be more powerful than a Saiyan-Earthling hybrid.

That and also the fact that we would get another strong Namekian except for just Piccolo and Nail.

And since this is a power levels thread, I might as well ask for your numbers for the hypothetical fusions, with the fusees and Vegetto as reference.

Alright, here's my numbers:
Goku: 105,000,000
Vegeta: 100,000,000
Dende: 900
Satan: 8

Fusions:
Vegetto: 10,000,000,000
Denku: 300,000,000 (Fighting skill heavily reduced)
Mr. Goku: 130,000,000

Mr. Goku turns out a good deal weaker, however he should gain the advantage when they use the SSJ forms as a Namekian-Saiyan hybrid probably couldn't access a Super Saiyan's full pwoer.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:25 pm

DBZ Macky wrote: I would actually have preferred if Goku fused with Dende.
Was it ever explained why Saiyan-Earthling hybrids were so powerful?
Because, for all we know, a Saiyan-Namekian hybrid could be more powerful than a Saiyan-Earthling hybrid.

That and also the fact that we would get another strong Namekian except for just Piccolo and Nail.

And since this is a power levels thread, I might as well ask for your numbers for the hypothetical fusions, with the fusees and Vegetto as reference.

There really isn't much of an explanation as to why Earthling-Saiyan hybrids are so much more powerful. One might assume that combining the Saiyans' power with human emotions makes it easier for them to draw it out, but that's just conjecture.

Given that Namekians don't even reproduce the same way Earthlings and Saiyans do, the only way you'd get a hybrid is through genetic modification (ala Cell) or through Fusion. And as Kaboom mentioned above, Goku would probably be better of merging with someone who possesses similar biology and some degree of fighting skills than alien with drastically different biology with no aptitude for fighting whatsoever. It would be a completely different situation if Goku wanted to fuse with a ridiculously powerful Super Namekian like Piccolo, but I digress.

As far as the actual numbers go, here's what I imagine that they'd all be:
Son Goku: 100,000,000
-- SS: 5,000,000,000
-- SS2: 10,000,000,000
-- SS3: 40,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000
-- SS: 5,000,000,000
-- SS2: 10,000,000,000

Dende: 2,000

Mr. Satan: 6.66

And now on to the Fusions:
Vegetto: 40,000,000,000
-- SS: 2,000,000,000,000
Denku (Goku + Dende): 120,000,000
-- SS: 600,000,000
Mr. Gotan (Goku + Mr. Satan): 100,100,000
-- SS: 5,005,000,000
[Denku's fighting skills are greatly impaired, and the Saiyan-Namekian hybrid can't draw out the full power of the Super Saiyan transformations, based on how it worked out with Cell.
Goku compares merging with Mr. Satan as adding 1 to 1,000, and because I'm incredibly lazy, I'm just gonna stick with that ratio. Unlike with Denku, Mr. Satan's presence doesn't impair the power of Goku's Super Saiyan transformation, though neither of them can go beyond the regular Super Saiyan albeit for different reasons (Dende's drastically different biology and Mr. Satan's lack of Ki control). All in all, Goku would've been better off not merging with anyone]

And because I felt like it:
Tenshinku (Goku + Tenshinhan: 750,000): 400,000,000
-- SS: 20,000,000,000

Gokulo( Goku + Piccolo: 1,500,000,000): 5,000,000,000
-- SS: 100,000,000,000
[Aside from the difference in power, Tenshinhan and Goku would've made for excellent fusion pairing. And unlike the other two above, Tenshinhan's presence wouldn't impair Goku's ability to use Super Saiyan at all (okay, maybe Super Saiyan 3 might've been a bit harder to use, but still.)
Like Dende, Piccolo's biology impairs the use of Super Saiyan, but unlike Dende, there is no drop in skill and the base form is so powerful that the decline in the Super Saiyan form, doesn't matter all that much.]

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:34 pm

DanielSSJ wrote:
DBZ Macky wrote: I would actually have preferred if Goku fused with Dende.
Was it ever explained why Saiyan-Earthling hybrids were so powerful?
Because, for all we know, a Saiyan-Namekian hybrid could be more powerful than a Saiyan-Earthling hybrid.

That and also the fact that we would get another strong Namekian except for just Piccolo and Nail.

And since this is a power levels thread, I might as well ask for your numbers for the hypothetical fusions, with the fusees and Vegetto as reference.
There really isn't much of an explanation as to why Earthling-Saiyan hybrids are so much more powerful. One might assume that combining the Saiyans' power with human emotions makes it easier for them to draw it out, but that's just conjecture.

Given that Namekians don't even reproduce the same way Earthlings and Saiyans do, the only way you'd get a hybrid is through genetic modification (ala Cell) or through Fusion. And as Kaboom mentioned above, Goku would probably be better of merging with someone who possesses similar biology and some degree of fighting skills than alien with drastically different biology with no aptitude for fighting whatsoever. It would be a completely different situation if Goku wanted to fuse with a ridiculously powerful Super Namekian like Piccolo, but I digress.

As far as the actual numbers go, here's what I imagine that they'd all be:
Son Goku: 100,000,000
-- SS: 5,000,000,000
-- SS2: 10,000,000,000
-- SS3: 40,000,000,000

Vegeta: 100,000,000
-- SS: 5,000,000,000
-- SS2: 10,000,000,000

Dende: 2,000

Mr. Satan: 6.66

And now on to the Fusions:
Vegetto: 40,000,000,000
-- SS: 2,000,000,000,000
Denku: 120,000,000
-- SS: 3,000,000,000
[Denku's fighting skills are greatly impaired, and the Saiyan-Namekian hybrid can't draw out the full power of the Super Saiyan transformations, based on how it worked out with Cell.]

Mr. Gotan: 100,100,000
-- SS: 5,005,000,000
[Goku compares merging with Mr. Satan as adding 1 to 1,000, and because I'm incredibly lazy, I'm just gonna stick with that ratio.]

Where would you put a hypothetical Goku x Tien fusion? He was Goku's first pick for a partner when Gohan got absorbed.

LightBing · Post by **LightBing** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:59 pm

A Fusion between a Saiyan and a Human shouldn't count as hybrid in the same sense as Gohan. One is magic, the other one is the mixture of genes of two different races.
Seems to me there's a clear difference.

Taking into account the logic of the fusions, which heights the potential based on similarities like height. I would think that being from different races would actually make the fusion weaker, when compared to two individuals of the same race.

DanielSSJ · Post by **DanielSSJ** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:06 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:Where would you put a hypothetical Goku x Tien fusion? He was Goku's first pick for a partner when Gohan got absorbed.

I edited my response, and included a Piccolo Goku fusion as well, since I brought it up.

LightBing wrote:A Fusion between a Saiyan and a Human shouldn't count as hybrid in the same sense as Gohan. One is magic, the other one is the mixture of genes of two different races.
Seems to me there's a clear difference.

Taking into account the logic of the fusions, which heights the potential based on similarities like height. I would think that being from different races would actually make the fusion weaker, when compared to two individuals of the same race.

Ignoring Super's retcon on the Potara time limit, I would assume that a Saiyan-Earthling fusion would count as a hybrid. They might not immediately possess the same otherworldly power that a hybrid would possess, but they would achieve amazing strength through training.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:19 pm

So I've been thinking...

Does anyone else think that Toriyama was thinking of Super Saiyan as a x3 multiplier when he wrote the Buu arc? Not that it really affects anything, I'm just curious what was going through Toriyama's mind when writing this story. The kiri measurements tell us that SS Goku is 3,000 story units, Yakon is 800 story units, Dabra is well above 3,000 story units (and above 4,000 units, per the anime), and base Goku is somewhere between 800 and 3,000, but closer to 800. Then later in the manga when discussing a hypothetical fusion with Mr. Satan, base Goku refers to himself as 1,000 when making a comparison.

I don't know, it makes sense to me. 1,000 is a nice even number, and Yakon, SS Goku, and Dabra all have their powers defined in the same system of arbitrary story units. Then later later we're told that SS2 Gohan's power is ~40-45% of what it would take to awaken Fat Buu, then we're told that Fat Buu can take all three SS2s together and is within striking distance of SS3, but still weaker (though close enough that stamina issues mean Goku might not be able to beat him). It seems like Toriyama probably had a list when writing this arc (or at least the early portions) where he lined up everyone's relative powers numerically along the lines of BOG's 6/10/15 system (which was kept consistent in BOG, FNF, and the Super manga, but not the Super anime). Something like this:

Goku: 1,000
--SS: 3,000
--SS2: 6,000
--SS3: 12,000

Vegeta [post-Majin]: 1,000
--SS2: 6,000

Gohan: 750
--SS2: 4,500

Dabra: 4,200

Fat Buu: 10,0000

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:20 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:where he lined up everyone's relative powers numerically along the lines of BOG's 6/10/15 system (which was kept consistent in BOG, FNF, and the Super manga, but not the Super anime).

I know I'm entirely missing the point for the vast majority of your post but I doubt the 6-10-15 scale applies to the manga. Beerus commented that Goku & Vegeta still aren't anywhere close to him in power which doesn't make much sense if they're, at least, around 75% of his power but probably higher.

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:22 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:where he lined up everyone's relative powers numerically along the lines of BOG's 6/10/15 system (which was kept consistent in BOG, FNF, and the Super manga, but not the Super anime).
I know I'm entirely missing the point for the vast majority of your post but I doubt the 6-10-15 scale applies to the manga. Beerus commented that Goku & Vegeta still aren't anywhere close to him in power which doesn't make much sense if they're, at least, around 75% of his power but probably higher.

Probably just Beerus bragging. I don't recall any actual contradictions to it, and the removal of the KK nonsense seems to be an attempt to keep it in place and in line with the movies.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:24 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:where he lined up everyone's relative powers numerically along the lines of BOG's 6/10/15 system (which was kept consistent in BOG, FNF, and the Super manga, but not the Super anime).
I know I'm entirely missing the point for the vast majority of your post but I doubt the 6-10-15 scale applies to the manga. Beerus commented that Goku & Vegeta still aren't anywhere close to him in power which doesn't make much sense if they're, at least, around 75% of his power but probably higher.
Probably just Beerus bragging. I don't recall any actual contradictions to it, and the removal of the KK nonsense seems to be an attempt to keep it in place and in line with the movies.

I would agree but then SSGod came back and we know the movies just had Goku absorb it into Base

RandomGuy96 · Post by **RandomGuy96** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:27 pm

ekrolo2 wrote:I would agree but then SSGod came back and we know the movies just had Goku absorb it into Base

It's never actually explicitly stated that this is permanently the case, iirc.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:30 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:I would agree but then SSGod came back and we know the movies just had Goku absorb it into Base
It's never actually explicitly stated that this is permanently the case, iirc.

True, Toriyama did only say this in an interview, the fact God was just nothing but a temporary gateway to a higher level of power but since all of Toriyama's interviews have been contradicted either by himself, Toyotaro, Toei or most likely all three of them, that statement needs to be taken with a good grain of salt.

Kanzenshuu

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