Toriyama may be the biggest detriment to Goku's character, not Toei.

[Kanassa]

Instead of being the low-class nobody he now had wuving parents who sent him to Earth for his safety rather than being fodder.

Having parents that gave a shit about him makes him stop being a low-class nobody?

[WittyUsername]

Instead of being the low-class nobody he now had wuving parents who sent him to Earth for his safety rather than being fodder.

Having parents that gave a shit about him makes him stop being a low-class nobody?

It kind of makes him less of a nobody, given that he apparently had a family who cared deeply for him. There's a reason that the Bardock special is universally considered to be superior to Minus.

[Deathbringer]

As I've said before about that Senzu joke, I'm pretty sure it can be interpreted in another way:

- Trunks gives Mai a Senzu mouth to mouth
- Goku says "huh I've never seen that before" (in reference to feeding someone senzu mouth to mouth)
- Vegeta goes "but you're married!" (thinking he's talking about kissing)
- Then Goku finishes the punchline with "what does that have to do with it?"

[SaiyanZ]

You may be right. But with Toei constantly making him look dumb and silly/happy, I have to believe that Toei is more responsible. Remember back when Goku was with Goten and Trunks teaching them the Fusion Dance? We don't even get that Goku in the manga. Its disheartening really.

[Cipher]

Considering the fact Toriyama's sole good story is one he had to hijack from another writer in regards to the new material, I think I can safely say that he needs to promptly go the fuck away.

Someone else wrote Jaco?

I'm a little baffled that kiss joke may have come from Toriyama, and Minus is not a positive addition to the story. That said though, while I do think Toei is doing the character a disservice on an episode-by-episode basis, I'll hold that the major issue in regard to post-revival Goku is the decision to make the new material a midquel. Writing the series as a continuous manga forced Toriyama, a natural storyteller, to develop the character constantly, whether he realized it or not. Goku's last character arc has been in place for twenty years, book-ended by the events of the Boo arc. Now that he and Toei are conceiving plots as complete outlines before they're scripted into weekly episodes, and trying to keep them within a pre-determined fictional time frame, that kind of natural progress is gone.

And you can tell. It's a problem. What fills the void is just repetitive allusions to his most obvious traits, punched up by Toei's screenplay-writers without regard for the kind of character they present as a whole.

- Trunks gives Mai a Senzu mouth to mouth
- Goku says "huh I've never seen that before" (in reference to feeding someone senzu mouth to mouth)
- Vegeta goes "but you're married!" (thinking he's talking about kissing)
- Then Goku finishes the punchline with "what does that have to do with it?"

I want to believe that's the joke. It's just not presented very well.

[Helios518]

As I've said before about that Senzu joke, I'm pretty sure it can be interpreted in another way:

- Trunks gives Mai a Senzu mouth to mouth
- Goku says "huh I've never seen that before" (in reference to feeding someone senzu mouth to mouth)
- Vegeta goes "but you're married!" (thinking he's talking about kissing)
- Then Goku finishes the punchline with "what does that have to do with it?"

Considering the manga destroys the ambiguity of that, I doubt it. Here's Herms' translation.

[spoiler]Page 52
4
Goku: “Whaah?! He’s sticking their lips together…!”
5
Vegeta: “Haven’t you ever…done that before?”
6
Goku: “Hm? Done what?”
7
Vegeta: “Haven’t you…ever kissed…?”
8
Goku: “Of course not!”
Vegeta: “….Aren’t you married?”
9
Goku: “Huh? What’s that got to do with it?”
Vegeta: “N…Never mind…”[/spoiler]

Source: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30467&start=8900#p1193243

[WittyUsername]

As weird as the joke about Goku having never kissed anyone was, I wouldn't necessarily count that as an example of his character being flanderized. That being said, I do find it pretty odd that Chi-Chi managed to convince Goku to sleep with her on at least two occasions, yet she apparently never instigated a kiss.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

As weird as the joke about Goku having never kissed anyone was, I wouldn't necessarily count that as an example of his character being flanderized. That being said, I do find it pretty odd that Chi-Chi managed to convince Goku to sleep with her on at least two occasions, yet she apparently never instigated a kiss.

Exactly it has nothing to do with Goku being "retarded". It's just odd but we move on. Everyone quickly accepted Bulma f*cking and having a kid with Vegeta.

[Faustus]

Considering the fact Toriyama's sole good story is one he had to hijack from another writer in regards to the new material, I think I can safely say that he needs to promptly go the fuck away.

Setting aside the point that it's really not his "sole good story"*, I take it you're referring here to Battle of Gods, in which case you're totally underselling Toriyama's contribution. The dialog & character work, which are undoubtedly the film's strongest points, are almost entirely his doing. Recall we were going to get a God of Destruction "Virus" who'd apparently "infected the Saiyans w/ evil" (the sort of earthshattering retcon which I'd imagine may well have drawn more ire than Minus had it gone through) & who would've certainly met his demise at the hands of SSG Goku w/ cape at the climax; what we wound up getting from Toriyama was infinitely more poignant & more fitting thematically to cap off Dragon Ball & Goku's character especially.

As for the kiss joke, I find it innocuous, & it's not outside the realm of possibility Toyotaro saw it in the anime, liked it & simply wanted to incorporate it into his own version of events; in any case I've got my doubts Toriyama's now getting so detailed in his plot outlines he's offering up specific gags.

*There's the universally praised Jaco, which stands witness to what Toriyama can still accomplish by his lonesome, & Resurrection 'F' notwithstanding I haven't seen any widespread outcry against the U6 & F-Trunks arcs, at least as far as their basic plots by Toriyama are concerned.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

...in any case I've got my doubts Toriyama's now getting so detailed in his plot outlines he's offering up specific gags.

The latest Toyotaro interview seemed to imply that Toriyama was fairly strict with ensuring that the jokes are handled a certain way.

[Faustus]

He does, admittedly, say:

I thought Toriyama would be more particular about the story, but he's actually more particular about the gags and the comedic moments! I can tell that he really loves those parts.

But a little later he also says:

Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself. [...] The parts I really want my fans and readers to look at are the comedic gags, because I'm pretty free to create those!

And it's not inconceivable Toriyama did oversee & approve Toyotaro's incorporation of the kissing gag from the anime, simply because it was harmless or because it'd already been used; the point being only that it didn't necessarily come from the man himself, & thus Toriyama isn't necessarily personally a bane for the franchise.

[8000 Saiyan]

First, he mentions something about Goku only viewing his family as companions (even though we're shown otherwise in the original manga) while Vegeta actually loves his.

Good old Toriyama. Contradicting himself again.

[Totamo]

goku IS a battle obsessed idiot. I thought that was known knowledge?

The man has let countless of villains go just for the sake of fighting them again. He basically let space gengis khan go.

I don't even know where this even came from but goku is inconsistently written and has had several put of character moments in the Manga and anime.

[Attitudefan]

If Goku was so dumb and selfish, why would he race off to protect his friends and attempt to get the Dragon Balls to wish those who died by Vegeta's hands back to life? New Goku doesn't seem to act like this. Old Goku did. Goku even made a speech that Freeza must pay for the murders he caused! It's actually quite profound and heroic of him. Yet, I can't see modern Goku doing this.

[sintzu]

If Goku was so dumb and selfish, why would he race off to protect his friends and attempt to get the Dragon Balls to wish those who died by Vegeta's hands back to life?

Or to fight king Piccolo after Tamborine killed Krillin or to go after the Red Ribbon Army to wish Uppa's father back.

There are other scenes that show he cares about others and he probably does in Super too cause he lost it when Black told him about how he killed Goten and Chi Chi but the writing doesn't really help show it that much.

[Totamo]

If Goku was so dumb and selfish, why would he race off to protect his friends and attempt to get the Dragon Balls to wish those who died by Vegeta's hands back to life? New Goku doesn't seem to act like this. Old Goku did. Goku even made a speech that Freeza must pay for the murders he caused! It's actually quite profound and heroic of him. Yet, I can't see modern Goku doing this.

like I said goku is inconsistently written and has serveral out of character moments. that's why there is truth to toriyama statement. That goku is selfish and dumb. he put his son out to fight cell when there is a good argument that could be made that he could have reached that power himself or he at least should have told Gohan the plan or not give cell a senzu. after all it was goku's fault buu was revived and then he left it to his children to deal with it.

goku in general fights for himself, if it doesn't involve him, he won't get involved.

[mabalia]

I don't get it, really. Goku can be obsessed about fighting, but that's not his only characteristic. He'd be such a boring character if he's only written that way and I never found him boring in the past, there are various examples like the ones attitudefan and shintzu posted. He's clearly being written differently in the major arcs, some fans like this new Goku and some fans don't. I get the feeling that a big part of the fandom don't like this new Goku because I see a lot of complaint across the internet.

[mabalia]

First, he mentions something about Goku only viewing his family as companions (even though we're shown otherwise in the original manga) while Vegeta actually loves his.

Good old Toriyama. Contradicting himself again.

Just to add I never saw someone likes a companion with the intensity Goku liked his grandpa Gohan. He was so attached to his four star dragon ball because it was a memento of his deceased grandpa, he clearly loved him. He was so lonely living in the Mount Paozu alone, talking to a dragon ball everyday before Bulma found him. No one can convince me he isn't happy having a family.

And the time he met his grandpa again it was one of the most touching moments of the manga.

When Raditz kidnapped his son Gohan, Goku was desperate, I hardly saw the happiness to fight a strong guy, he just wanted to save his son. Even in super when Zamasu killed Chichi and Goten, he reacted more violently and with no forgiveness to Zamasu. Even Freeza who killed Krillin before his own eyes he could forgive and let him live.

So I take this "companion, don't have a sense of family" comment of Toriyama as him not remembering well certain parts of what he wrote in his manga. Because he didn't depict Goku as this kind of guy who likes everyone equally, even between his friends we can see him likeing Krillin more than Yamcha for exemple. In moments of distress he doesn't talk first of Krillin, Turtle or Dr. Briefs. No, he talks of his sons and wife.

[Totamo]

I don't get it, really. Goku can be obsessed about fighting, but that's not his only characteristic. He'd be such a boring character if he's only written that way and I never found him boring in the past, there are various examples like the ones attitudefan and shintzu posted. He's clearly being written differently in the major arcs, some fans like this new Goku and some fans don't. I get the feeling that a big part of the fandom don't like this new Goku because I see a lot of complaint across the internet.

most people don't because everyone has their own image of goku. some see him as a selfish asshole who will put the world in danger for a fight.

some see him as a badass warrior who takes down baddiesand spouts wisdom.


I see no reason why he can't be both, not all heroes wear capes afterall and many people do say that goku is an awful familyman.

[mabalia]

I don't get it, really. Goku can be obsessed about fighting, but that's not his only characteristic. He'd be such a boring character if he's only written that way and I never found him boring in the past, there are various examples like the ones attitudefan and shintzu posted. He's clearly being written differently in the major arcs, some fans like this new Goku and some fans don't. I get the feeling that a big part of the fandom don't like this new Goku because I see a lot of complaint across the internet.

most people don't because everyone has their own image of goku. some see him as a selfish asshole who will put the world in danger for a fight.

some see him as a badass warrior who takes down baddiesand spouts wisdom.


I see no reason why he can't be both, not all heroes wear capes afterall and many people do say that goku is an awful familyman.

What I say is that Goku is more than just a selfish and battle maniac. I disagree with the bad family man part some fans see him like, he's a good dad and husband in general and he tries to do whats right, like working in the field despite not having an interest in it because it's the right thing to do, to support his family. And he's playfull, hugs his sons, he can be a positive presence in their lifes, the son boys grew up to be good kids and they were raised by Chichi and Goku.

He commits mistakes but he's usually well intentioned and he doesn't have a trouble to recognize his mistakes and tries to correct them, like when Picolo alerted Goku of Gohan being a pacifist (don't remember exactly the words he said) in the Cell tournament, after hearing it he wanted to enter the ring imediatlly to help fight Cell, warrior pride be damned.

He's not the best dad and husband but he's a good one (the best is Gohan or Kuririn).