Bullza wrote:It does kinda seem like Toriyama retconned his power levels from Resurrection F to Super. Perhaps it was done so he could bring back the original Super Saiyan forms or something.
He has kinda changed his mind a bit when it comes to the Super Saiyan forms. After Battle of Gods but before he thought up Resurrection F he said that Goku probably wouldn't use Super Saiyan 2 or 3 anymore. He also said he could get stronger by increasing his Base and Super Saiyan power.
Then apparently Super Saiyan Blue was just supposed to be his Super Saiyan now after absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God. Then that idea went out the window with the Universe 6 saga and that made it more complicated.
So he could have retconned it, the manga might be closer to Toriyama's power scaling but the anime just continued on with the super strong Base for Goku. If Toriyama did change his mind you'd think the anime staff would have been made aware of it though.
Pretty much this, since the universe 6 saga I've maintained that he realized the power scaling from the previous movies was way too inflated. I also stand by my hypothesis that part of the agreement between Toriyama and Toei was that the first two arcs would be adaptation of the movies while he worked on the next arcs so that they could hit production asap. By the time Toriyama had had the next arc laid out its possble Super was already airing and it was too late to change things. This is what I believe lead to the disconnect, and why I believe the anime team wouldn't be aware while the manga team would be and why the anime has to just continue to roll with the power inconsistencies and hope "dumb kids" don't notice in a show for kids....
Anyway this is my major beef, it feels like in the rush to get a "canon" Dragonball product out the door we aren't given the quality of the product we deserve for something like that. It's been apparent in everything and especially the powerscaling and writing consistency. I actually enjoy the manga because the thought and care that I love and expect of the DB franchise seems to be evident and less of a cash grab and more a labor of genuine love as well.
It's all been a complete mess. If (and it is still just an if) Toriyama did retcon the power levels then that was the first big mistake. If everyone had just seen BoG and RoF then the power levels should have been inline with that.
They didn't need to bring the original Super Saiyan forms back because that's screwed it up more than anything.
The manga is kind of odd now because of the missing RoF saga where the reader would be lead to believe that the events would be the same as the movie they just watched....but now they might not be.
It's awkward because the story makes it seem as though the Universe 6 contestants and Zamasu and Trunks should all be like Buu saga level as they are in the manga but they're not in the anime so it just feels off and it's confusing people.
I would consider the manga closer to Toriyama's vision. I wasn't sure what to think when I thought Toriyama just gave it a once-over, but Herms' tweets make it sound like he's basically a co-writer on the thing. Certainly he doesn't give the anime that level of involvement...
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
I think we can safely assume this episode puts Yamcha>Gohan....we finally have a next generation passing of the torch. Yamcha hands his torch to Gohan. Father to son. It's beautiful .
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Bullza wrote:It's all been a complete mess. If (and it is still just an if) Toriyama did retcon the power levels then that was the first big mistake. If everyone had just seen BoG and RoF then the power levels should have been inline with that.
They didn't need to bring the original Super Saiyan forms back because that's screwed it up more than anything.
The manga is kind of odd now because of the missing RoF saga where the reader would be lead to believe that the events would be the same as the movie they just watched....but now they might not be.
It's awkward because the story makes it seem as though the Universe 6 contestants and Zamasu and Trunks should all be like Buu saga level as they are in the manga but they're not in the anime so it just feels off and it's confusing people.
If anyone is to blame it's Toriyama.
Its Toriyamas fault for letting Toei do it and Toeis fault for half assing a quick franchise cash grab. They could have at least waited til Toriyama finished a general outline of the next arc before slapping something together. Then the show would have had some proper preproduction and been something the fans deserve. Super for me is marred because we deserved better then for our nostalgia to be played off of. I bet if it was any other franchise they would have went through a proper production process because they know they need to make a good impression and can't ride on name alone. All I'm saying is if they just waited a few months to get a general sense of the future arcs they would have know if the power scaling should have been different and we wouldn't have any of this mess.
To anyone who says that Frieza cannot sense God Ki, go to 9 minutes and 0 seconds and watch until 10 minutes and 0 seconds. Frieza explains that he can sense SSB Goku's God Ki.
If Beerus is so strong, why did he get flustered when he saw Goku use the Kaioken? I know I certainly wouldn't start sweating if I was still hundreds of times stronger.
Its Toriyamas fault for letting Toei do it and Toeis fault for half assing a quick franchise cash grab. They could have at least waited til Toriyama finished a general outline of the next arc before slapping something together.
They could have waited but Toriyama never should have changed anything in the first place. He was supposed to be writing outlines that acted as a continuation of the movies he just wrote.
Toei naturally just like the fans wouldn't expect their to be any radical changes in the power scaling. That 10% line for Beerus, them withstanding his unrestrained attacks and them being at a level where they could sense God Ki was allaccurate going by what Toriyama wrote for the movies.
And for some stupid reason Toriyama, I don't know if he changed things or maybe he didn't but it screwed things up moving forward. Their in an awkward situation now where all these characters have gotta be at or beyond God level even though it makes no sense for the story nor is it how Toriyama sees it.
Its Toriyamas fault for letting Toei do it and Toeis fault for half assing a quick franchise cash grab. They could have at least waited til Toriyama finished a general outline of the next arc before slapping something together.
They could have waited but Toriyama never should have changed anything in the first place. He was supposed to be writing outlines that acted as a continuation of the movies he just wrote.
Toei naturally just like the fans wouldn't expect their to be any radical changes in the power scaling. That 10% line for Beerus, them withstanding his unrestrained attacks and them being at a level where they could sense God Ki was allaccurate going by what Toriyama wrote for the movies.
And for some stupid reason Toriyama, I don't know if he changed things or maybe he didn't but it screwed things up moving forward. Their in an awkward situation now where all these characters have gotta be at or beyond God level even though it makes no sense for the story nor is it how Toriyama sees it.
Idk man, that seems extremely disrespectful to the creator and his artistic vision. He made a couple of 90 minute movies where were originally created in a vacuum with no thought as to a long series. It seems that he, like any good writer, thought about the long term pacing of his series and decided that the inflation would not make a good ongoing story. It would be like Harry Potter being more powerful or equal to Voldemort after the first two books or Luke being more powerful than Darth Vader after a half hour talk with Obi Wan about the force. Being mad at his for being a thoughtful writer and considering the future direction of his stories seems like a weird thing to criticize a writer on. If there's anything to criticize him on it's on him not caring enough about the property to make sure Toei didn't screw it up. There's more than enough blame to pass around for how it turned out but I wouldnt criticize Toriyama for doing the aspects he's actually supposed to handle the right way.
Why is there an assumption here that Toriyama changed his power scaling just because the manga went and did its own thing. This is the only place on the entire internet that have seen this nonsense theory take any root. Unless you got some statement somewhere that Toriyama changed his mind about Goku and Vegeta's base form being super powerful like the movie he wrote and for some reason he told no one this when he wrote his outline, then all of you guys are talking out of your butts.
Also, the Champa Saga's outline was completed before the fall of 2015, since that is when the Future Trunks Saga was written. If Toriyama wanted to changed the power scale and tell Toei, he had months to do it since that Champa Saga was completed when the series was still in the retellings.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:If Beerus is so strong, why did he get flustered when he saw Goku use the Kaioken? I know I certainly wouldn't start sweating if I was still hundreds of times stronger.
it's because he got stronger so quickly
Besides Champa was going to fight Hit who Is on the level of SSGSSx10 Goku,not too mention Hit looked afraid
HeroR wrote: [...] this nonsense theory [...] then all of you guys are talking out of your butts.
Jeez. Take it easy.
dbzfan7 wrote:I think we can safely assume this episode puts Yamcha>Gohan....we finally have a next generation passing of the torch. Yamcha hands his torch to Gohan. Father to son. It's beautiful .
I loved the fact that Yamcha, Botamo and Champa were running human-style and getting flustered while trying to reach the base. Anyway, gotta handle TOEI: this was one of the only Super episodes that genuinely made me smile. I'm not liking the series very much and my interest drastically waned over time, but the baseball match with a - in hindisght - very smart scenario for some comedy. And a very smart scenario they played out really well.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:If Beerus is so strong, why did he get flustered when he saw Goku use the Kaioken? I know I certainly wouldn't start sweating if I was still hundreds of times stronger.
I think that scene is highly misinterpreted. I think Beerus was surprised/shocked/worried that Goku was plotting to defeat Beerus someday. If you notice at the end of the tournament, both Beerus and Champa gave 0 fucks about any of the fighters, with Champa threatening to wipe out his whole team, and Beerus trolling Goku to take on the Gods of Destruction.
The whole "Beerus was nervous" is something Goku fanboys came up with to try and validate his power in reference to Beerus.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:If Beerus is so strong, why did he get flustered when he saw Goku use the Kaioken? I know I certainly wouldn't start sweating if I was still hundreds of times stronger.
I think that scene is highly misinterpreted. I think Beerus was surprised/shocked/worried that Goku was plotting to defeat Beerus someday. If you notice at the end of the tournament, both Beerus and Champa gave 0 fucks about any of the fighters, with Champa threatening to wipe out his whole team, and Beerus trolling Goku to take on the Gods of Destruction.
The whole "Beerus was nervous" is something Goku fanboys came up with to try and validate his power in reference to Beerus.
Why would he care that Goku's plotting anything if he's still hundreds of times stronger, Kaioken or not? And Whis teases him by asking if he'd be in trouble if Goku used that against him, which would be like someone asking Frieza if Nappa could give him trouble.
TheUltimateNinja wrote:If Beerus is so strong, why did he get flustered when he saw Goku use the Kaioken? I know I certainly wouldn't start sweating if I was still hundreds of times stronger.
I think that scene is highly misinterpreted. I think Beerus was surprised/shocked/worried that Goku was plotting to defeat Beerus someday. If you notice at the end of the tournament, both Beerus and Champa gave 0 fucks about any of the fighters, with Champa threatening to wipe out his whole team, and Beerus trolling Goku to take on the Gods of Destruction.
The whole "Beerus was nervous" is something Goku fanboys came up with to try and validate his power in reference to Beerus.
Why would he care that Goku's plotting anything if he's still hundreds of times stronger, Kaioken or not? And Whis teases him by asking if he'd be in trouble if Goku used that against him, which would be like someone asking Frieza if Nappa could give him trouble.
Beerus is hundreds of millions of years old, and when Goku dies he is getting a eternal afterlife in Valhalla.
Even if Goku reaches + 10^-1000000 % of Beerus power every year- it's a scary thing.
It's Goku's quick Ascension that is scary. Imagine if a toddler learned Calculus over the course of 5 seconds?
That's the relative time that Goku has existed compared to Beerus.
People forget how old Beerus is. His naps are decades long.
Mabey he hasn't gone back to sleep because he is worried that when he wakes up Goku will have surpassed him?
MajinVegetaPD wrote:
I think that scene is highly misinterpreted. I think Beerus was surprised/shocked/worried that Goku was plotting to defeat Beerus someday. If you notice at the end of the tournament, both Beerus and Champa gave 0 fucks about any of the fighters, with Champa threatening to wipe out his whole team, and Beerus trolling Goku to take on the Gods of Destruction.
The whole "Beerus was nervous" is something Goku fanboys came up with to try and validate his power in reference to Beerus.
Why would he care that Goku's plotting anything if he's still hundreds of times stronger, Kaioken or not? And Whis teases him by asking if he'd be in trouble if Goku used that against him, which would be like someone asking Frieza if Nappa could give him trouble.
Beerus is hundreds of millions of years old, and when Goku dies he is getting a eternal afterlife in Valhalla.
Even if Goku reaches + 10^-1000000 % of Beerus power every year- it's a scary thing.
It's Goku's quick Ascension that is scary. Imagine if a toddler learned Calculus over the course of 5 seconds?
That's the relative time that Goku has existed compared to Beerus.
People forget how old Beerus is. His naps are decades long.
Mabey he hasn't gone back to sleep because he is worried that when he wakes up Goku will have surpassed him?
There's nothing to indicate Beerus trains at all, or has trained anytime in the past millions of years, that's the only reason his power remains static. We don't know how fast he progressed back when he trained. Though Old Kai says Beerus was weaker than Buu when he sealed him, presumably meaning Kid Buu, so for Beerus to go from below SSJ3 Goku to massively above even SSBlue Goku Kaioken x10 in the present indicates that he is capable of making huge gains if he actually trained.
Bullza wrote:Probably not no. Didn't Gowasu say they needed a higher power to fighter Zamasu?
But if Goku used the Kaioken x10 at that time his power would undoubtedly be the highest in existence besides the Gods like Beerus and co., so that may have been enough. Sure, Zamasu powered up after he got wrecked by Goku, but Goku was exhausted and injured back then so even if Zamasu multiplied his power tenfold, a fresh Goku with a limitless Kaioken x10 should still be able to win.
Bullza wrote:Probably not no. Didn't Gowasu say they needed a higher power to fighter Zamasu?
But if Goku used the Kaioken x10 at that time his power would undoubtedly be the highest in existence besides the Gods like Beerus and co., so that may have been enough. Sure, Zamasu powered up after he got wrecked by Goku, but Goku was exhausted and injured back then so even if Zamasu multiplied his power tenfold, a fresh Goku with a limitless Kaioken x10 should still be able to win.
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