Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Speed doesn't increase in correlation with strength.

Two people with the same battle power can have different speed. Just look at Tenshinhan in the 23rd TB. He was weaker than Goku when he killed Piccolo but somehow managed to get way faster than him.

Burter is another good example, he was on par with Jeice and Reccome but he was way faster than them. Goku was also faster than Ginyu while being considerably weaker.

[DBZ Macky]

Speed doesn't increase in correlation with strength.

Two people with the same battle power can have different speed. Just look at Tenshinhan in the 23rd TB. He was weaker than Goku when he killed Piccolo but somehow managed to get way faster than him.

Burter is another good example, he was on par with Jeice and Reccome but he was way faster than them. Goku was also faster than Ginyu while being considerably weaker.

I agree with you that speed alone won't increase one's battle power by a lot, but same thing can be said about physical strength as well. You'd need to increase both aspects to get a significant increase in battle power.

I remember making a "BP formula" (lol) to explain some of the Daizenshuu PLs.
Obviously, these might not be the only factors affecting one's BP since courage, anger etc. also play a major role, but this is just a simple "formula" for fun (and to appease those who disagree with the Daizenshuu BPs).

BP= (Speed + Physical Strength)/2

Spoiler:

So, for Tenshinhan,
Speed= 300
Power= 200
BP= 250

for BoDB Goku
Speed= 7 //going from memory here, his speed feats can probably be performed by real olympians
Strength= 12 //his feat of breaking 3 bricks with one finger on the other hand...
BP= 10

for the God of Earth
Speed= 140
Strength= 300
BP= 220

for Nappa,
Speed= 500 //His speed is so low because he couldn't even see Kinto'un rescuing Gohan
Strength= 7,500
BP= 4,000

for Vegeta from the above quote it'd be,
Speed= 24,000
Strength= 24,000
BP= 24,000

for Butta
Speed= 50,000
Strength= 40,000
BP= 45,000

for Jheese
Speed= 45,000
Strength= 45,000
BP= 45,000

for Reacoom
Speed= 40,000
Strength= 50,000
BP= 45,000

for Freeza
Speed= 100,000,000 //Bulky as hell with no real speed feats IIRC
Strength= 140,000,000
BP= 120,000,000


And for the grade forms,
SSJ Grade I
Speed= 50
Strength= 50
BP= 50

SSJ Grade II
Speed= 65
Strength= 65
BP= 65

SSJ Grade III
Speed= 30
Strength= 150
BP= 90

[/useless headcanon]

Another question I had been meaning to ask: was Grade III's speed even less than that of Grade I or was it just relatively slower compared to Grade II?

[Desassina]

I used to have a formula like this:

[spoiler]Battle Power = Strength * Agility / Energy[/spoiler]

... where Battle Power is the same thing as physics' Force, strength is mass, while agility is change in velocity, to be divided by energy as the equivalent of time spent. With that being said, the transformations could be as follow:

[spoiler]Kaioken x20 - Power: 20 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 20

Super Saiyan - Power: 50 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 10 | Energy: 2
Super Saiyan 2 - Power: 100 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 4
Super Saiyan 3 - Power: 400 | Strength: 80 | Agility: 80 | Energy: 16

Grade II SSJ - Power: 64 | Strength: 16 | Agility: 16 | Energy: 4
Grade III SSJ - Power: 80 | Strength: 80 | Agility: 8 | Energy: 8
Full Power SSJ - Power: 100 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 10 | Energy: 1[/spoiler]

Notice that, when Kaioken increases your strength and agility for a limited amount of time, due to its energy consumption, its power is not as big as SSJ. When SSJ is mastered to have no energy consumption (dividing by 1 is the same as adding 0), its power gets bigger, but the character's traits don't change, hence why he doesn't get bulky and slower. SSJ2 is at the tipping point of a fully powered SSJ, because they share 100 for power, which means that SSJ2 Gohan, at the Cell Games, was something like this:

[spoiler]Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan - Power: 200 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 2[/spoiler]

It's Full Power SSJ multiplied by 2 the same way regular SSJ would get. I need to make a game out of this...

[DBZ Macky]

I used to have a formula like this:

[spoiler]Battle Power = Strength * Agility / Energy[/spoiler]

... where Battle Power is the same thing as physics' Force, strength is mass, while agility is change in velocity, to be divided by energy as the equivalent of time spent. With that being said, the transformations could be as follow:

[spoiler]Kaioken x20 - Power: 20 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 20

Super Saiyan - Power: 50 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 10 | Energy: 2
Super Saiyan 2 - Power: 100 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 4
Super Saiyan 3 - Power: 400 | Strength: 80 | Agility: 80 | Energy: 16

Grade II SSJ - Power: 64 | Strength: 16 | Agility: 16 | Energy: 4
Grade III SSJ - Power: 80 | Strength: 80 | Agility: 8 | Energy: 8
Full Power SSJ - Power: 100 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 10 | Energy: 1[/spoiler]

Notice that, when Kaioken increases your strength and agility for a limited amount of time, due to its energy consumption, its power is not as big as SSJ. When SSJ is mastered to have no energy consumption (dividing by 1 is the same as adding 0), its power gets bigger, but the character's traits don't change, hence why he doesn't get bulky and slower. SSJ2 is at the tipping point of a fully powered SSJ, because they share 100 for power, which means that SSJ2 Gohan, at the Cell Games, was something like this:

[spoiler]Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan - Power: 200 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 2[/spoiler]

It's Full Power SSJ multiplied by 2 the same way regular SSJ would get. I need to make a game out of this...

That's actually a really good formula dude, it works.
Though it seems a bit hard to digest that Kaio-ken x20 Goku would be faster than SSJ Goku.
Also, for some reason I can't bring myself to think that energy consumption has anything to do with the overall battle powers, or else SSJ3 would be pretty darn useless.

[Desassina]

It just means that the energy that Goku was consuming to make his SSJ3 power prevented him from going all the way up. It's 400 with the energy being 16, so full power ought to be 6'400 with the energy being 1. He couldn't control it though, hence why it leaked when he reverted to base. It works even in GT:

[spoiler]SSJ3 Goku - 400
SSJ Oozaru - 500
SSJ4 Goku - 6'400

Super Baby Vegeta - 500
Super Oozaru Baby - 5'000[/spoiler]

Since Super Baby Vegeta was already Super Something (I can't tell what his white hair form is), he got it multiplied by 10 as an Oozaru. Goku went Super Oozaru from base, and multiplied his by 500.

[DBZ Macky]

It just means that the energy that Goku was consuming to make his SSJ3 power prevented him from going all the way up. It's 400 with the energy being 16, so full power ought to be 6'400 with the energy being 1. He couldn't control it though, hence why it leaked when he reverted to base. It works even in GT:

[spoiler]SSJ3 Goku - 400
SSJ Oozaru - 500
SSJ4 Goku - 6'400

Super Baby Vegeta - 500
Super Oozaru Baby - 5'000[/spoiler]

Since Super Baby Vegeta was already Super Something (I can't tell what his white hair form is), he got it multiplied by 10 as an Oozaru. Goku went Super Oozaru from base, and multiplied his by 500.

Sorry, I haven't watched GT except for the first 5-6 episodes, so I am not very familiar with it.
I get what you're saying though, and I agree

Still, can't believe that SSJ Goku's slower than Kaioken x20 though.

[Kaboom]

Since you said that you treat Cell's power-ups as various grades of Super Saiyan, so SPC's battle power must be 6,400 but it's actually 7,000 according to your battle power list. Is this a change that you haven't made in the original list yet or is there any other explanation?

I kind of consider it like a double-whammy benefit of Cell's healing boost... he both powered up a bit AND was able to power up in a better way.

Going by this, SSJ Grade III should have a smaller "multiplier" than SSJ2. Sure, the power boost may actually be so large that the decreased speed wouldn't even matter, but his battle power would still be a lot lower compared to the all-rounder SSJ2. I'd think it'd be more like a 90x multiplier than 115x or 125x, what do you think?

I think that normally, someone's battle power would affect all their physical "stats" equally: strength, defense, and speed. But there can easily be exceptions where things are imbalanced and someone has a deficiency or specialty.

It could be for a lot of reasons, like body type, or specialized training. Vito already pointed out the best examples, where Butta was much faster than Recoome and Jheese even though their power levels were all similar, and Goku was faster than both Butta and Ginyu despite having a lower power level than the latter. It's the same kind of deal with Grade 3. That form powers you up in a flawed, excessive way that causes profuse muscle swelling, and Goku explained for us that all the added bulk makes it hard to move and lowers your speed. So even though Trunks pushed his power level up to such an extreme level, he was probably moving and striking at the speed of someone only half as strong, and thus couldn't lay a finger on Cell.

[DBZ Macky]

I kind of consider it like a double-whammy benefit of Cell's healing boost... he both powered up a bit AND was able to power up in a better way.

Seems very unlikely to me that Cell not only ignores the fact that regeneration is supposed to decrease your power, not increase it but also that he gets a "Zenkai" on top of a Zenkai

Though I get what you're saying. It's as if Vegeta unlocked SSJ after his Zenkai on Namek against Freeza. If he got just one of the two, he wouldn't be able to defeat him, but with both he would've surpassed him.

I think that normally, someone's battle power would affect all their physical "stats" equally: strength, defense, and speed. But there can easily be exceptions where things are imbalanced and someone has a deficiency or specialty.

It could be for a lot of reasons, like body type, or specialized training. Vito already pointed out the best examples, where Butta was much faster than Recoome and Jheese even though their power levels were all similar, and Goku was faster than both Butta and Ginyu despite having a lower power level than the latter. It's the same kind of deal with Grade 3. That form powers you up in a flawed, excessive way that causes profuse muscle swelling, and Goku explained for us that all the added bulk makes it hard to move and lowers your speed. So even though Trunks pushed his power level up to such an extreme level, he was probably moving and striking at the speed of someone only half as strong, and thus couldn't lay a finger on Cell.

I agree, and I completely understand now. I wasn't taking into account that the striking force would also be less because of the decrease in speed. Maybe that's why even in Anime filler, "Ultra" Trunks wasn't able to badly injure Cell and Power Weighted Cell wasn't able to put a dent on SSJ2 Gohan.

Honestly, I find your battle powers list to be one of the best but I wanted to ask you why Goku gets from like 50k to 90k just from training Heaven. There's nothing wrong with it of course, it's just that I feel that nothing implies that Goku got monstrously stronger.

Also, the fact that your approach to BPs seems to be moderation (no pun intended), it just seems strange that Goku got so powerful while he was training on a planet with normal gravity, with no "Zenkais" and also learnt SSJ2 and SSJ3.

For reference, I have Goku going from 46k to 60k.

[Desassina]

Maybe Kaioken x20 is faster than Super Saiyan as a means to exert power that is still lower, but that won't mean that Goku can't be faster with SSJ. If he wanted to, he could probably increase his agility by losing energy, but not as far as Kaioken x20. Here's the example:

[spoiler]Kaioken x20 Goku - Power: 20 | Strength: 20 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 20

Super Saiyan Goku (x2 speed) - Power: 50 | Strength: 10 | Agility: 20 | Energy: 4[/spoiler]

Notice the difference between Kaioken x20 and SSJ when their agility is the same: Goku's energy consumption with SSJ is 5 times lower, therefore more benefitial to him.

[ahill1]

Goku: 2,800
Cell: 3,200
Gohan: 3,500

But Cell increased his speed against Gohan. He wasn't using the exact same level he used against Goku, since initially he couldn't even touch Gohan. Also, do you think his battle power increased alongside with his speed increase?

[Noah]

Notice the difference between Kaioken x20 and SSJ when their agility is the same: Goku's energy consumption with SSJ is 5 times lower, therefore more benefitial to him.

The energy points are consumption?

[Bullza]

How strong was Piccolo at the Cell Games? Stronger than Android 16? Semi Perfect Cell? Super Vegeta before his second trip into the ROSAT?

[ekrolo2]

How strong was Piccolo at the Cell Games? Stronger than Android 16? Semi Perfect Cell? Super Vegeta before his second trip into the ROSAT?

If Cell Games Vegeta is an 18, Piccolo would be 15-14

[ZombieVito]

How strong was Piccolo at the Cell Games? Stronger than Android 16? Semi Perfect Cell? Super Vegeta before his second trip into the ROSAT?

Stronger than all of them. I have him a little bit stronger than 50% Goku.

[DanielSSJ]

How strong was Piccolo at the Cell Games? Stronger than Android 16? Semi Perfect Cell? Super Vegeta before his second trip into the ROSAT?

Since he wasn't completely decimated by his Cell Junior opponent unlike the earthlings and an exhausted Goku, I have him on par with Super Vegeta before his second session in the Room of Spirit and Time.

[Bullza]

I recall people saying he was at least stronger than Semi Perfect Cell due to an exchange of words he had with Goku before he got Dende, what was that about?

[Desassina]

Notice the difference between Kaioken x20 and SSJ when their agility is the same: Goku's energy consumption with SSJ is 5 times lower, therefore more benefitial to him.

The energy points are consumption?

It wouldn't make sense for Full Power SSJ to have 2 instead of 1. When the energy is under control, he can exert more power with the former taking less. I wrote something like "dividing by 1 is the same as adding 0 to consumption or taking none from his actual energy", because these formulas are only multipliers for their stats. No one has a power level of 400 as a SSJ3, but it's a multiplier.

Edit: nevermind, I noticed that I wrote SSJ having 5 times less the consumption, but it's only compared to Kaioken x20 in that example of getting more speed.

[DanielSSJ]

I kind of consider it like a double-whammy benefit of Cell's healing boost... he both powered up a bit AND was able to power up in a better way.

Seems very unlikely to me that Cell not only ignores the fact that regeneration is supposed to decrease your power, not increase it but also that he gets a "Zenkai" on top of a Zenkai

Though I get what you're saying. It's as if Vegeta unlocked SSJ after his Zenkai on Namek against Freeza. If he got just one of the two, he wouldn't be able to defeat him, but with both he would've surpassed him.

I think what Kaboom was trying to say was that, after recovering from near-death, Cell not only got a Saiyan healing boost, but had somehow learned to channel the power that originally manifested itself in that bulky form into a more sleek and energy-efficient state, which is basically how I view the relationship between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3.

As far as Cell not losing stamina from regenerating this time, I suppose all the other times he regenerated, his injuries weren't bad enough to register as "near-death' and he wasn't able to get a healing boost from them.

[apex_pretador]

What's your guys gap between Goku SSJ1 (Cell Games) and Gohan SSJ1 (Cell Games). I don't think it should be pretty big, seeing as how Cell only increased his speed against Gohan:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”

But still the Boo saga implies there's a pretty large gap between them. Kid Gohan was said [by Vegeta] to be far, far better than Teen Gohan:

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”

I doubt anyone would have SSJ1 teen Gohan way weaker than Cell Games Goku, if at all.

The gap should not be too big. Cell games gohan was still crushed by suppressed perfect cell in a bear hug.
I do put adult gohan below cell games goku.

Speed doesn't increase in correlation with strength.

Two people with the same battle power can have different speed. Just look at Tenshinhan in the 23rd TB. He was weaker than Goku when he killed Piccolo but somehow managed to get way faster than him.

Burter is another good example, he was on par with Jeice and Reccome but he was way faster than them. Goku was also faster than Ginyu while being considerably weaker.

Just about everything in the manga indicates that tenshinhan was way stronger than goku who killed piccolo.

How strong was Piccolo at the Cell Games? Stronger than Android 16? Semi Perfect Cell? Super Vegeta before his second trip into the ROSAT?

Definitely stronger than super vegeta, going by the fights of cell jr (way stronger than initial perfect cell) vs piccolo and Super vegeta vs initial perfect cell.

[hellobooboo14]

How do you scale Vegito Blue compared to fused Zamasu and Future Trunks and Goku's KKH?

Also, when someone in the manga says they are 'greater' than person (b), how much stronger is greater? Also, when someone say they are pathetic, how much power is the difference?

For example;

Vegeta calls himself and Goku being greater than Kid Gohan. Also Vegeta calls Gohan pathetic compared to his younger self.