Yamcha and the bad taste situation

[TekTheNinja]

I like Yamcha getting attention here, but I AM a little iffy about how it's treated as a joke often.

[MarCas92]

I haven't really minded Yamchas devolution into mostly a gag character this past decade. At least it opens up new possiblities for storytelling with the character.

I'd much rather have this version of Yamcha than a serious one who just stays in the background never contributing anything of significance.

[Lord Beerus]

I haven't really minded Yamchas devolution into mostly a gag character this past decade. At least it opens up new possiblities for storytelling with the character.

Yamcha has been treated as a joke character for far longer than a decade. I agree with RandomGuy96 assessment on the whole situation. Yamcha is a character that exists to be the butt monkey, and there's nothing really wrong with that.

[precita]

The only time Yamcha was humiliated during a fight was against Kami in the last tournament, only because he kept hitting his balls against his head and the audience was laughing. Every other fight Yamcha had, even when lost or died, was treated in a serious manner.

I really don't get where people ever got the assumption Yamcha's defeats were treated like a joke, or compared to anyone else.

[Nejishiki]

There was a really good interview where Yamcha's voice actor recalls an anecdote where he asked Toriyama about why his character got screwed over so hard in the Android arc, and Toriyama's response basically amounted to "because he sucks lol".

For the sake of clarification, Furuya was upset about his character's relationship.

Speaking of Yamcha, he was dumped by Bulma, wasn’t he?
That was a shock. I often spoke with Hiromi Tsuru-san, who plays Bulma; both she and I thought Bulma and Yamcha would end up together. And for Vegeta, of all people! It really was a shock. So when I met with Toriyama-sensei, I complained, “Why did it have to be like this?!” Then Toriyama-sensei said, “Come on; Yamcha’s a cheater.” (laughs)

[ekrolo2]

I haven't really minded Yamchas devolution into mostly a gag character this past decade. At least it opens up new possiblities for storytelling with the character.

Yamcha has been treated as a joke character for far longer than a decade. I agree with RandomGuy96 assessment on the whole situation. Yamcha is a character that exists to be the butt monkey, and there's nothing really wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with someone occasionally tossing him a legitimate bone

[RandomGuy96]

There was a really good interview where Yamcha's voice actor recalls an anecdote where he asked Toriyama about why his character got screwed over so hard in the Android arc, and Toriyama's response basically amounted to "because he sucks lol".

For the sake of clarification, Furuya was upset about his character's relationship.

Speaking of Yamcha, he was dumped by Bulma, wasn’t he?
That was a shock. I often spoke with Hiromi Tsuru-san, who plays Bulma; both she and I thought Bulma and Yamcha would end up together. And for Vegeta, of all people! It really was a shock. So when I met with Toriyama-sensei, I complained, “Why did it have to be like this?!” Then Toriyama-sensei said, “Come on; Yamcha’s a cheater.” (laughs)

That's the one. Whenever I think about getting annoyed with Toriyama, I try to remember stuff like this.

[dragonballhero]

I understand that Yamcha's (for the most part) outclassed more often than not, but I even I feel like things got a little...mean-spirited to him in episode 70. I especially got a little...annoyed at Bulma's comment about how baseball is the "ONLY" thing he's good at anymore.

Aside from that, the fact that he hasn't participated in any battles that the Dragon Team has dealt with over the last couple of years REALLY gets on my nerves when Master Roshi and freakin' Jaco get called in instead of him. Yamcha may be quite outclassed, but he is by no means incompetent IMO.

[Lord Beerus]

I haven't really minded Yamchas devolution into mostly a gag character this past decade. At least it opens up new possiblities for storytelling with the character.

Yamcha has been treated as a joke character for far longer than a decade. I agree with RandomGuy96 assessment on the whole situation. Yamcha is a character that exists to be the butt monkey, and there's nothing really wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with someone occasionally tossing him a legitimate bone

...

...

...

...Nah.

[ekrolo2]

...

...

...

...Nah.

You didn't mind when I did it

[Lord Beerus]

...

...

...

...Nah.

You didn't mind when I did it

Touche. But the Baseball episode reminded me how much fun it is to tease Yamcha.

[Lord Frieza]

While its true that Yamacha was treated a little better in early DB & Z the poor guy has always gotten the short end of the stick. In the whole series he's only one 2 official fights, one were Goku was weakened and the other he needed help, and a few odd non cannon ones that were so short that its not even worth mentioning most.

Throughout DB Yamcha was the measuring stick for the new threat and a source of knowledge about martial arts but as time passed and the power creep kicked in and the series became less and less pure martial arts based he effectively lost all the things he was used for. With Krillin and Tien pretty much filling the best spots for weaker characters, Yamcha was always going to be the first to pushed down to background character.

[precita]

And yet Yamcha still remained relevant to the end of the Cell arc. Even in the Buu arc they had Yamcha with the others while Tenshihan didn't even appear till Super Buu showed up.

[TekTheNinja]

There was a really good interview where Yamcha's voice actor recalls an anecdote where he asked Toriyama about why his character got screwed over so hard in the Android arc, and Toriyama's response basically amounted to "because he sucks lol".

For the sake of clarification, Furuya was upset about his character's relationship.

Speaking of Yamcha, he was dumped by Bulma, wasn’t he?
That was a shock. I often spoke with Hiromi Tsuru-san, who plays Bulma; both she and I thought Bulma and Yamcha would end up together. And for Vegeta, of all people! It really was a shock. So when I met with Toriyama-sensei, I complained, “Why did it have to be like this?!” Then Toriyama-sensei said, “Come on; Yamcha’s a cheater.” (laughs)

I have to agree with Fuyura completely there. Yamcha and Bulma was my god damned OTP, dude!

Also Roshi tagging along instead of Yamcha AGAIN is a god damned insult. Is Toriyama just on some Roshi nostalgia kick or something?

[Cipher]

Re: VegettoEX's take on this thread: I certainly agree that getting too caught up in defending any one character is an odd, fruitless way to interact with the series, or any fiction, for that matter. I've been flabbergasted by this attitude time and again following Super weekly, with it hitting a nadir during the Universe 6 arc with Piccolo and Gohan's performances, or lack thereof.

However, if I understand this thread correctly, in terms of it not being about Yamcha specifically, I rather agree with its sentiments. It's one thing to simply not use or repurpose characters. It's another to begin writing them solely as jokes due to meta-elements like Yamcha's memetic status. Yes, I chuckled at the episode revealing his death pose (before it was hammered into the ground by the dialogue), but on top of all the other little moments in the episode -- Bulma expressing that Yamcha was useless until proven otherwise, #18 commenting that he's no longer a martial artist -- it just didn't feel like I was watching a rounded character at all, or even a character the series had ever tried to present in a genuine light. When has Bulma ever felt that way? You can too easily sense those attitudes being written in as winks to fans rather than as elements germane to the world, and that's distracting. It doesn't feel like a type of humor Dragon Ball has ever engaged in before. So many of its best moments, and Toriyama's humor in general, rely on treating the characters genuinely, even in their absurdity. This was quite the opposite.

Maybe this gets into my general attitude that Super faces an uphill battle in terms of contributing anything to a story that's been nearly closed for twenty years, but at the point when characters are no longer being handled on the basis of what their personalities are and where their personal stories should go, but instead on how they can best be used to pander to fans in two-dimensional ways, why do we care about what we're watching?

I have absolutely no stake in Yamcha. He's kind of a boring generic martial-artist who's slowly written into the background. But until last episode, he was never a gag character (whimsical characteristics in the first arc notwithstanding). And, as a major difference between the kind of writing the opening post comments on and Toriyama's, Toriyama never, or hardly ever, presented gag characters as two-dimensional targets for the audience to laugh at. They all have their own things going on, the humor tends to be more situational than at any one character's expense, and even Senbei gets to be right twice a day. Yamcha may have stolen home last week, but he was the constant butt of jokes (even in the minds of his friends, which has never happened before), not because it felt like part of the world, but because someone at Toei was aware of his post-internet reputation. Maybe it's not distasteful, but if we're dipping into those waters, maybe it's time to let the story rest.

Have Yamcha sit out sixty-four episodes and only cameo as he's fixing a car in the desert, for all I care. At least that feels genuine. Last week just didn't seem right.

EDIT -- And that's not to say some version of Yamcha playing the straight man to a bunch of cosmically powerful fighters in a baseball game couldn't work. As others have pointed out, it all comes down to execution.

[ABED]

it just didn't feel like I was watching a rounded character at all, or even a character the series had ever tried to present in a genuine light.

It's not like the series had never had that degree of self awareness before. Even if it's just the movies, they were quick to point out that Kuririn is constantly swatted away like he was nothing. And that happened long before the internet. And Toriyama has on occasion hung a lantern on overused plot points or techniques.

[Cipher]

It's not like the series had never had that degree of self awareness before. Even if it's just the movies, they were quick to point out that Kuririn is constantly swatted away like he was nothing. And that happened long before the internet. And Toriyama has on occasion hung a lantern on overused plot points or techniques.

The movies.

Plot conveniences (jokes at the expense of the author), rather than characters.

[ABED]

It's not like the series had never had that degree of self awareness before. Even if it's just the movies, they were quick to point out that Kuririn is constantly swatted away like he was nothing. And that happened long before the internet. And Toriyama has on occasion hung a lantern on overused plot points or techniques.

The movies.

Plot conveniences (jokes at the expense of the author), rather than characters.

Still counts even though they are the movies. This sort of humor has been used before there was direct fan interaction on social media.

What's so wrong about taking a jab at the fact that a character constantly gets the short end of the stick? What makes that worse than poking fun at an overused plot device? The author can poke fun at himself but not his creations? I'd have to see it in context, but if a character like Yamcha never wins, it feels valid for those around him to point it out.

[Cipher]

Still counts even though they are the movies. This sort of humor has been used before there was direct fan interaction on social media.

Yes, but I think it's worth separating those instances -- as in, all the tired "Why only me?" beats with Kuririn in the movies -- from the way the core series operated. They felt distant from the core series even twenty years ago.

What's so wrong about taking a jab at the fact that a character constantly gets the short end of the stick? What makes that worse than poking fun at an overused plot device? The author can poke fun at himself but not his creations?

I think I covered this above, but if you're going to start treating formerly serious characters entirely as the butt of jokes, it's hard to care about the story or world. One of the joys of Dragon Ball, along with Toriyama's work in general, is that it always treats characters with sincerity. It's part of what makes the world one we can care about following through multiple generations and instances of high-stakes drama despite an underlying sense of total whimsy and frequent comedy beats. Even clearly demarcated gag characters, such as Mr. Satan or, hell, the entire cast of Dr. Slump, are given roles that don't rely entirely on belittling them in the eyes of the audience. And to the extent they do become the butt of jokes, it's due to personal folly rather than simply being the universe (or fandom's, in this case) punching bags. Setup, and punchline. Everything contained to the world and characters themselves. It's classic situational comedy.

Those Kuririn beats in the movies and Yamcha's role in Super are very much of a kind, but I don't think it's a type of humor Dragon Ball has historically turned to nor does well to engage in. I'd rather characters simply not show up than become flat representations of their internet reputations, existing solely to mine humor from that.

My issue with things like episode 70 is that the humor doesn't stem from Yamcha being himself among a field of other characters also being themselves. It stems from a need to insert jokes at Yamcha's expense whether they feel genuine to the world or not. It might literally come down to a handful of lines in this case, but that's how the episode is, and the opening post is right to highlight its placement within a broader field of franchise material (mostly video-games and merchandise, I guess) taking similar shots at the character. It's entirely too alarmist to say that episode 70 indicates anything like this happening, but hypothetically, if the fiction is going to write characters wholly at the whims of fandom perception, I'm out.

[precita]

Why do people find Yamcha boring? His type of personality is pretty unique among the main cast, in that he's more of an easy going lighthearted character who is also sometimes cocky and thinks he's better than he is.