Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Speed doesn't increase in correlation with strength.

Two people with the same battle power can have different speed. Just look at Tenshinhan in the 23rd TB. He was weaker than Goku when he killed Piccolo but somehow managed to get way faster than him.

Burter is another good example, he was on par with Jeice and Reccome but he was way faster than them. Goku was also faster than Ginyu while being considerably weaker.

Just about everything in the manga indicates that tenshinhan was way stronger than goku who killed piccolo.

Too bad we have official numbers that disagree.

[DBZ Macky]

Just about everything in the manga indicates that tenshinhan was way stronger than goku who killed piccolo.

Well, I don't think so. All Tenshinhan managed to do in his bout against Goku was match up against his speed.
He was maybe on par with weighted Goku at most. No one ever comments that he's stronger than Piccolo Daimao.
He's still inferior to God, as he does not surpass him until he trains with Mr. Popo for about an year.

Besides, I don't understand how Tenshinhan would be able to go from below 50% of Old Piccolo Daimao to being stronger than Young Piccolo Daimao. The only thing we knew about his training was that he climbed Karin Tower.
Karin told Goku that he had nothing else to teach him, the only way for Goku to get stronger was to drink the choushinshui.

If this was Dragon Ball Super though, then I'd say he'd have gotten stronger than Ginyu at least, because he trained for well over four months

[apex_pretador]

Speed doesn't increase in correlation with strength.

Two people with the same battle power can have different speed. Just look at Tenshinhan in the 23rd TB. He was weaker than Goku when he killed Piccolo but somehow managed to get way faster than him.

Burter is another good example, he was on par with Jeice and Reccome but he was way faster than them. Goku was also faster than Ginyu while being considerably weaker.

Just about everything in the manga indicates that tenshinhan was way stronger than goku who killed piccolo.

Too bad we have official numbers that disagree.

So official numbers over manga?

[spoiler]

Just about everything in the manga indicates that tenshinhan was way stronger than goku who killed piccolo.

Well, I don't think so. All Tenshinhan managed to do in his bout against Goku was match up against his speed.
He was maybe on par with weighted Goku at most. No one ever comments that he's stronger than Piccolo Daimao.
He's still inferior to God, as he does not surpass him until he trains with Mr. Popo for about an year.

Besides, I don't understand how Tenshinhan would be able to go from below 50% of Old Piccolo Daimao to being stronger than Young Piccolo Daimao. The only thing we knew about his training was that he climbed Karin Tower.
Karin told Goku that he had nothing else to teach him, the only way for Goku to get stronger was to drink the choushinshui.

If this was Dragon Ball Super though, then I'd say he'd have gotten stronger than Ginyu at least, because he trained for well over four months [/spoiler]

You quoted the wrong person.
Karin told Goku that he can beat "young" piccolo daimao by training for 2-3 years, and Karin had no idea Goku is a saiyan.

Tenshinhan was the ONLY person who sensed piccolo daimao's full power, no one else did. So who would mention that and why?
Tenshinhan actually matched in strength a goku who was "far above what he was 3 years ago". Tenshinhan did not have disproportionate speed, weighted goku had disproportionate speed (vastly improved in strength but same in speed)

And yes, he is extremely inferior to God.

[Bullza]

Definitely stronger than super vegeta, going by the fights of cell jr (way stronger than initial perfect cell) vs piccolo and Super vegeta vs initial perfect cell.

Isn't that just going by the anime?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Definitely stronger than super vegeta, going by the fights of cell jr (way stronger than initial perfect cell) vs piccolo and Super vegeta vs initial perfect cell.

Isn't that just going by the anime?

The fight wasn't shown in the manga but Piccolo was still standing by the end, so at the very least he's above exhausted SSJ Goku.

How do you scale Vegito Blue compared to fused Zamasu and Future Trunks and Goku's KKH?

Also, when someone in the manga says they are 'greater' than person (b), how much stronger is greater? Also, when someone say they are pathetic, how much power is the difference?

For example;

Vegeta calls himself and Goku being greater than Kid Gohan. Also Vegeta calls Gohan pathetic compared to his younger self.

"Greater" and "pathetic" are both subjective, but generally I'd go with a gap of over 10% for both. Vegeta wasn't just referring to power in Gohan's case, though, his fighting skill had been dulled as well.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Okay, just made a new list for the Future Trunks Arc, tell me what you guys think. 1 unit = SSG Goku.

Future Trunks Arc:
SSG Goku (BoG): 1
Beerus: 100
SSBlue Goku: 2.8
SSBlue Vegeta: 2.7
SSRose Black: 3.2
Future Zamasu: 2.2
SSJ2 Trunks: 2
SSBlue Goku (Rage boost): 3.5
Super Trunks: 3
SSRose Black (Zenkai): 3.6
Vegeta (Post RoSAT Rage boost): 4
SSBlue Goku: 4
SSRose Black (Scimitar): 4.2
SSRose Black (Scythe): 4.8
Merged Zamasu (Initial): 6
SSBlue Vegeta: 3.5
Arms Breaking Kamehameha: 7
SSBlue Goku (Kaioken): 8
Merged Zamasu: 60
Corrupted Zamasu (Light of Justice): 70
SSBlue Vegetto: 75
Power Weighted Zamasu: 75
Unstable Zamasu (Battered): 7.5
Spirit Trunks: 7.5

[hellobooboo14]

Okay, just made a new list for the Future Trunks Arc, tell me what you guys think. 1 unit = SSG Goku.

Future Trunks Arc:
SSG Goku (BoG): 1
Beerus: 100
SSBlue Goku: 2.8
SSBlue Vegeta: 2.7
SSRose Black: 3.2
Future Zamasu: 2.2
SSJ2 Trunks: 2
SSBlue Goku (Rage boost): 3.5
Super Trunks: 3
SSRose Black (Zenkai): 3.6
Vegeta (Post RoSAT Rage boost): 4
SSBlue Goku: 4
SSRose Black (Scimitar): 4.2
SSRose Black (Scythe): 4.8
Merged Zamasu (Initial): 6
SSBlue Vegeta: 3.5
Arms Breaking Kamehameha: 7
SSBlue Goku (Kaioken): 8
Merged Zamasu: 60
Corrupted Zamasu (Light of Justice): 70
SSBlue Vegetto: 75
Power Weighted Zamasu: 75
Unstable Zamasu (Battered): 7.5
Spirit Trunks: 7.5

I disagree with Vegetto being above merged Zamasu... the only time Vegetto had a clear advantage was when Zamasu increased his size (like Cell). At the start when both had power and speed, they were very close with the advantage slightly going to Zamasu as he was able to cause Vegetto to spit out blood.

Merged Zamasu: 100
Vegetto Blue: 98

[TheUltimateNinja]

Okay, just made a new list for the Future Trunks Arc, tell me what you guys think. 1 unit = SSG Goku.

Future Trunks Arc:
SSG Goku (BoG): 1
Beerus: 100
SSBlue Goku: 2.8
SSBlue Vegeta: 2.7
SSRose Black: 3.2
Future Zamasu: 2.2
SSJ2 Trunks: 2
SSBlue Goku (Rage boost): 3.5
Super Trunks: 3
SSRose Black (Zenkai): 3.6
Vegeta (Post RoSAT Rage boost): 4
SSBlue Goku: 4
SSRose Black (Scimitar): 4.2
SSRose Black (Scythe): 4.8
Merged Zamasu (Initial): 6
SSBlue Vegeta: 3.5
Arms Breaking Kamehameha: 7
SSBlue Goku (Kaioken): 8
Merged Zamasu: 60
Corrupted Zamasu (Light of Justice): 70
SSBlue Vegetto: 75
Power Weighted Zamasu: 75
Unstable Zamasu (Battered): 7.5
Spirit Trunks: 7.5

I disagree with Vegetto being above merged Zamasu... the only time Vegetto had a clear advantage was when Zamasu increased his size (like Cell). At the start when both had power and speed, they were very close with the advantage slightly going to Zamasu as he was able to cause Vegetto to spit out blood.

Merged Zamasu: 100
Vegetto Blue: 98

100 & 98 are too high, they can't be that close to Beerus. Also, Vegetto had a clear advantage before Zamasu buffed up as well, he was able to pound Zamasu into the ground and was grinding his face in. And Zamasu made Vegetto cough blood up with a surprise attack, he suddenly sucker punched him during their fist clash.

[Bullza]

Is it true that the Daizenshuu said that Android 16 was stronger than Android 13? And would that be including Super Android 13?

Also is Super Saiyan Gohan at the Cell Games stronger than the Perfect Cell who fought Goku?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Is it true that the Daizenshuu said that Android 16 was stronger than Android 13? And would that be including Super Android 13?

Also is Super Saiyan Gohan at the Cell Games stronger than the Perfect Cell who fought Goku?

I thought the Daizenshuu (or any other guide) said Super 13 is stronger than 16. And 13 (no super) is weaker than 18, he was just above SSJ Goku.

And i think FPSSJ Gohan was in the middle between Goku and Cell.

Speed doesn't increase in correlation with strength.

Two people with the same battle power can have different speed. Just look at Tenshinhan in the 23rd TB. He was weaker than Goku when he killed Piccolo but somehow managed to get way faster than him.

Burter is another good example, he was on par with Jeice and Reccome but he was way faster than them. Goku was also faster than Ginyu while being considerably weaker.

Just about everything in the manga indicates that tenshinhan was way stronger than goku who killed piccolo.

Too bad we have official numbers that disagree.

Doesn't matter. Anime and manga > Guides. And btw, don't try to calculate speed and brute strenght of DBZ characters. Roshi fired a Kamehameha that in seconds crossed the difference between the earth and the moon and pulverized the moon.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Is it true that the Daizenshuu said that Android 16 was stronger than Android 13? And would that be including Super Android 13?

Also is Super Saiyan Gohan at the Cell Games stronger than the Perfect Cell who fought Goku?

I personally have Gohan equal to Cell, he was able to dodge most of his attacks but it didn't seem he had any sort of power advantage.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'd think it'd be more like a 90x multiplier than 115x or 125x, what do you think?

90x is actually the multiplier I use.

[Bullza]

I thought the Daizenshuu (or any other guide) said Super 13 is stronger than 16. And 13 (no super) is weaker than 18, he was just above SSJ Goku.

The DBZ wiki page for Android 16 just says

"Daizenshuu says Android 16 is even stronger than Android 13."

I don't know if that's true or made up or as you said the wrong way around.

[Nejishiki]

I wouldn't rely on the Dragon Ball Wikia for information. From your account, it sounds like they fail to cite which Daizenshuu claims this. There's more than one of them! I don't particularity want to browse through all of them aimlessly, so I'll assume they meant Daizenshuu 6. It primarily tackles the movies, after all. From my reading, this is the only time No. 16 is mentioned. It doesn't detail strength relation. That's an excerpt for Dragon Ball Z Movie 07, of course.

[dbgtFO]

I thought the Daizenshuu (or any other guide) said Super 13 is stronger than 16. And 13 (no super) is weaker than 18, he was just above SSJ Goku.

The DBZ wiki page for Android 16 just says

"Daizenshuu says Android 16 is even stronger than Android 13."

I don't know if that's true or made up or as you said the wrong way around.

The excerpt it's referring to is from Android 16's Daizenshuu 7 profile, which just says he's the strongest android.
People then think that includes the movie droids as well.

[RandomGuy96]

I thought the Daizenshuu (or any other guide) said Super 13 is stronger than 16. And 13 (no super) is weaker than 18, he was just above SSJ Goku.

The DBZ wiki page for Android 16 just says

"Daizenshuu says Android 16 is even stronger than Android 13."

I don't know if that's true or made up or as you said the wrong way around.

The excerpt it's referring to is from Android 16's Daizenshuu 7 profile, which just says he's the strongest android.
People then think that includes the movie droids as well.

IIRC movie characters have profiles in D7, so that's not an unreasonable assumption.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, Daizenshuu #7's character dictionary is all-inclusive and has entries for anime- and movie-only characters, including Android 13, but its bio for Android 16 says that he's "the strongest artificial human besides Cell." So that's usually enough for folks to assume that even Super 13 didn't quite match up to 16 in raw power. Which can work just fine, with how far the Super Saiyans and even Piccolo would be below both of them.

I think what Kaboom was trying to say was that, after recovering from near-death, Cell not only got a Saiyan healing boost, but had somehow learned to channel the power that originally manifested itself in that bulky form into a more sleek and energy-efficient state, which is basically how I view the relationship between Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan Grade 2 and 3.

Basically, yeah... it's as if before his near-death regeneration he was like a normal Super Saiyan, but after it he was more like a mastered full-power Super Saiyan.

But Cell increased his speed against Gohan. He wasn't using the exact same level he used against Goku, since initially he couldn't even touch Gohan. Also, do you think his battle power increased alongside with his speed increase?

Meh, I don't normally overthink it... but nobody noted any change in his power level when he sped up. I guess either he tapped into some of his still-hidden reserves in a subtle way that let him increase speed without anything else changing. Or maybe he just re-purposed the power he was already using to temporarily favor speed over attack and defense.

How strong was Piccolo at the Cell Games? Stronger than Android 16? Semi Perfect Cell? Super Vegeta before his second trip into the ROSAT?

Like others, I consider him just about as strong as Grade-2 Vegeta was. That's "on a whole different level" as Goku observed, and soundly stronger than all the Androids and Stage-2 Cell, but as also stated still not enough to do much against Perfect Cell.

[Sailor Haumea]

Here's a new challenge:

Power-scale Z (anime), Super (anime), and GT to these conditions:

1. Movies must be included (Dead Zone before Raditz Saga; World's Strongest, Tree of Might, Lord Slug, and Cooler's Revenge during the three-year training for the Androids; Super Android 13! during the events of episode 147, after Goku tells Vegeta and Trunks about the Chamber, but before they actually enter; The Return of Cooler, The Real 4-D, Broly 1, and Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans during the 10 day wait; Movie 9 after the Other World Saga; Movie 10 between episodes 207 and 208; Movie 11 after Goku returns to Other World; Movie 13 after episode 287; and 2008 OVA after Movie 13. Movie 12 can be excluded - see below).
2. Shin Budokai should be included during the gap between Yo! Son Goku and the start of Super.

Basically, COMPLETELY overhaul the power scaling system to bring the movies, Super, and GT in line with one another.

Any takers for my challenge?

Other than that, I can manage.

Do it.

[Bullza]

So how strong is Supreme Kai? Is it true the Daizenshuu says he has strenght that far surpasses Piccolo's?

[Lord Beerus]

So how strong is Supreme Kai? Is it true the Daizenshuu says he has strenght that far surpasses Piccolo's?

Yeah, Daizenshuu 7 outright states that Kaioshin possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo". I'd personally place Kaioshin on the very low end of SSJ2 tier, as he was able to paralyse SSJ2 Adult Gohan and survived a savage beating from Pre-Split Majin Boo.