Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[OLKv3]

Until now I've been somewhat tolerant of Toyotaro's changes, but SSJ Black is just bullshit.

It's not a change, he's just sticking to Toriyama's notes. Toei skipped it and went straight to Rose.

[ZombieVito]

Until now I've been somewhat tolerant of Toyotaro's changes, but SSJ Black is just bullshit.

It fucks up the power scale hard. Now the gap between SSJ and Blue is enormous in the manga.

Now Hit vs SSJ Goku is impossible. There's no way SSJ Goku could fight Hit like that when the latter is hundreds of times stronger.

Toei did the right thing in just having Rose.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Until now I've been somewhat tolerant of Toyotaro's changes, but SSJ Black is just bullshit.

It fucks up the power scale hard. Now the gap between SSJ and Blue is enormous in the manga.

Now Hit vs SSJ Goku is impossible. There's no way SSJ Goku could fight Hit like that when the latter is hundreds of times stronger.

Toei did the right thing in just having Rose.

SSBlue is stronger than SSG which is in turn stronger than SSJ3 which is 8x stronger than SSJ, so at minimum SSBlue is at least 20x stronger than SSJ in the manga so that's still a pretty huge gap for Goku to overcome against Hit regardless of this new revelation.

[AvatarReiko]

so that's still a pretty huge gap for Goku to overcome against Hit regardless of this new revelation.

There is no power level gap between Hit and Goku. It's clear from this episode that Hit is obviously using some kind of time Hax to kill people

[Bullza]

Even though I place little to no stock in it at this point I know that others do so I may as well bring it up.

If Piccolo couldn't sense Super Saiyan Blue after all then that would mean that he wasn't at a level where he could sense God Ki which would mean he would be weaker than Base Goku despite a lot of people thinking the opposite based on the Frost fight.

[Nejishiki]

The ability to sense god ki requires no correlation with one's overall strength. With instruction, it can be learned, trained, and honed like normal ki (Gohan to Goten; Whis to Vegeta). One wouldn't claim Freeza's "level" to be ineffective in the Namek arc for his ki-sensing deficiency.

[HeroR]

The ability to sense god ki requires no correlation with one's overall strength. With instruction, it can be learned, trained, and honed like normal ki (Gohan to Goten; Whis to Vegeta). One wouldn't claim Freeza's "level" to be ineffectual in the Namek arc for his ki-sensing deficiency.

Freeza had no training in ki sensing, let alone sensing god ki, yet he sensed Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. Plus, we didn't see Vegeta read god ki until he was up to Goku's level, after he absorbed Super Saiyan God. On top of that, Trunks couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta, yet he could sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan God Vegetto after he got a super form that put him on par with Goku and Vegeta. This isn't like normal ki where we see Vegeta just pick it up almost instantly or people being train specifically to ki sense.

Are you going to tell me that after this time Gohan, Piccolo, and Goten can't sense god ki if it is something you can just pick up, yet Freeza and Trunks can.

[Zamasu55]

Even though I place little to no stock in it at this point I know that others do so I may as well bring it up.

If Piccolo couldn't sense Super Saiyan Blue after all then that would mean that he wasn't at a level where he could sense God Ki which would mean he would be weaker than Base Goku despite a lot of people thinking the opposite based on the Frost fight.

Did you seriously think Piccolo was god-tier?

[Zamasu55]

With the feats Hit showed in this weeks episode, Is he above Black?

No.

[Nejishiki]

That (being taught to feel ki) is far and away from Bullza's main issue, which I was addressing. He implied Piccolo must lack in the strength department if he's unable to track Goku after transforming. My example is not meant to pick at the minutia. Its purpose was to demonstrate Piccolo wasn't a "weakling" compared to Goku if Freeza wasn't a weakling compared to Dragon Team for lacking in a particular asset. That's all that exchange was for. I brought up the development factor of ki to account for characters such as Kaioshin and the like. They're certainly not reaching "levels" of power to accomplish their expertise. You could reconcile that with reasonable explanations but that wasn't the real point of my message. My response was okay in that context, I'd think. That correlation between the two elements aren't hard rules. There's no need to ask (with condescension) if I "think" or if I'm "telling" you anything. I had a particular point to post about and that was all.

[Saturnine]

Even though I place little to no stock in it at this point I know that others do so I may as well bring it up.

If Piccolo couldn't sense Super Saiyan Blue after all then that would mean that he wasn't at a level where he could sense God Ki which would mean he would be weaker than Base Goku despite a lot of people thinking the opposite based on the Frost fight.

Did you seriously think Piccolo was god-tier?

As much as I'd love to take it as support of the two-base theory, keep in mind that Saiyan Beyond God ki can still be sensed.

I think what puts this to bed is the fact that there can be no regular SSj with god ki, since a SSJ Blue is what happens when "a Saiyan with the power of a god transforms into a Super Saiyan". So whenever Goku went SSj, SSj2 or SSj3 it was not on top of Saiyan Beyond God. It's also in line with the strengths of characters such as Cabba, Frost, Future Trunks or first encounter Zamasu.

EDIT: Oh, sorry. I realized just now you meant being able to sense Goku's ki WHILE transformed. That indeed would require Piccolo to be SBG level himself, so yeah - it's another argument to prove he never was.

[HeroR]

That (being taught to feel ki) is far and away from Bullza's main issue, which I was addressing. He implied Piccolo must lack in the strength department if he's unable to track Goku after transforming. My example is not meant to pick at the minutia. Its purpose was to demonstrate Piccolo wasn't a "weakling" compared to Goku if Freeza wasn't a weakling compared to Dragon Team for lacking in a particular asset. That's all that exchange was for. I brought up the development factor of ki to account for characters such as Kaioshin and the like. They're certainly not reaching "levels" of power to accomplish their expertise. You could reconcile that with reasonable explanations but that wasn't the real point of my message. My response was okay in that context, I'd think. That correlation between the two elements aren't hard rules. There's no need to ask (with condescension) if I "think" or if I'm "telling" you anything. I had a particular point to post about and that was all.

This isn't about being a 'weakling'. The point is that Piccolo isn't as strong as base form Goku since he can't sense god ki. From what Super has shown, if you reached a certain level of strength, you can begin to sense god ki like Golden Freeza who has no training in ki sensing. The same with Trunks who couldn't sense god ki in Episode 55, but could in Episode 66 after getting his new form that put him on par with Goku and Vegeta.

The Kais are natural gods, which is how they can sense god ki despite being physically weak. King Kai said that only a god can sense another god, while Whis said in Episode 18 that Goku and Vegeta have barely reached the level of sensing god ki, revealing that mortals can sense god ki once they reached a certain level.

Bullza also don't believe what I wrote because they believed Trunks' base form is as strong as Goku and Vegeta's base forms, and him not being able to sense god ki makes no sense if you believe that.

[TheUltimateNinja]

When did Black surpass SSBlue Rageta? Was it during his final Zenkai with the Scimitar or after he got the Scythe?

[Abra kadabra]

When did Black surpass SSBlue Rageta? Was it during his final Zenkai with the Scimitar or after he got the Scythe?

Black says vegeta got stronger because of trunks and that it was through anger. He says that he would do the same and angrily pulls out a dimension slicing scythe. Black was the strongest on the field after that.

[TheUltimateNinja]

When did Black surpass SSBlue Rageta? Was it during his final Zenkai with the Scimitar or after he got the Scythe?

Black says vegeta got stronger because of trunks and that it was through anger. He says that he would do the same and angrily pulls out a dimension slicing scythe. Black was the strongest on the field after that.

I know, but was he already stronger by that point or did he only become stronger after he got the scythe?

[Bullza]

Did you seriously think Piccolo was god-tier?

No I've always maintained that Piccolo is weaker than Buu. There are a bunch of people around here though who believe Piccolo is God Tier and that he's superior to Base Goku because he could have defeated Frost whilst Vegeta still needed to transform into Super Saiyan to beat him.

I know, but was he already stronger by that point or did he only become stronger after he got the scythe?

I thought his only power up after being beaten around by Vegeta was the one where he acquired the scythe. I don't recall him powering up after that beating and then powering up once again when he stabbed himself.

[Abra kadabra]

When did Black surpass SSBlue Rageta? Was it during his final Zenkai with the Scimitar or after he got the Scythe?

Black says vegeta got stronger because of trunks and that it was through anger. He says that he would do the same and angrily pulls out a dimension slicing scythe. Black was the strongest on the field after that.

I know, but was he already stronger by that point or did he only become stronger after he got the scythe?

Black liked playing around but I don't think he would need to get stronger like that if he could have taken out vegeta prior to the scythe. So he was stronger after. who knows though. The writers protected him after every beatdown he received.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So, what's the deal with the manga's powerscaling, anyway? Goku and Vegeta have barely improved since they started out and the villains are getting progressively weaker.

[buutenks]

Well this episode is evidance to me what i always thought, Piccolo only got to Ultimate Gohan level or maybe due to their training they both got to Buutenks/Buuhan level. But still far below base Goku/Vegeta and Future Trunks.

That would easily explain how Piccolo managed to compete with a weakend final form Frost.

[Bullza]

So, what's the deal with the manga's powerscaling, anyway? Goku and Vegeta have barely improved since they started out and the villains are getting progressively weaker.

Well maybe the manga is taking Vegeta's comment about being at their limit seriously. The anime said it then completely ignored it altogether.

But yeah the villains have up to yet been getting weaker but that'll probably change by the next chapter.

Future Zamasu in the manga will probably be of the same strenght as the present Zamasu who fought Kibito so Trunks will likely be the one to fight him as they're probably more level while Goku and Vegeta will fight Black as they're more level.