"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Why would he draw the SSJ form that every saiyan can do rather than the form unique to himself? even if it is still a simple recolor its still a form that Goku and the other saiyans have no access to, so obviously drawing that over the SSJ is a better choice and just put that he can also go SSJ, people already have an idea what it would look like based from our Goku.

With the fckng love that Toei gave Black I'm quite surprised they missed the opportunity to show his SSJ form, imo it would look cool on him. Still the point stands that he couldnt, meaning he was messing around, then again I'm tired of this and seems you wont even change your mind that Black is full of nonsense when he has done a lot of things that proves he's full of nonsense as I stated he kept on talking, explaining, taking his sweet time because he wanted to get stronger and get to know Goku a lot more, he could have 100% killed them if he stabbed them straight in the head or heart but he kept on missing despite the huge advantages he kept on having because of his weird zenkai's. They would have still owned and killed them faster if they fused already, but because he kept on messing around they were able to escape here and there, despite the advantage of an immortal ally and his infinite zenkai's, they would have been dead if he wanted to, theres a reason why he didnt, because he wanted to get more powerful, he felt he can become more powerful but decided to finish things off so they then merged.

Wiped the floor with Goku and still didnt kill him, get my point on why he's full of nonsense? if you still cant get my point I dont see us getting anywhere, I'm done.

I don't know, why did he draw Rose that is just Super Saiyan with pink hair. And how do you know Goku and the others have no access to it. The anime nor Toriyama called it a Black only form. We don't even know if it's a god form, we all just assume it is.

Black just went straight to his strongest form. Vegeta didn't used his normal Super Saiyan against Black, so why should go gold.

You're using certain situations were Black mess around, explained, and took his sweet time to define his character. The only real time he purposely screwed around was when he made his clones and kept Goku and Vegeta busy while Future Zamasu murder everyone. He wanted to get to know Goku, but he had not problem trying to kill him during round one when he was about to blast him and was only stopped by Future Zamasu. He then joined in and mugged Goku in a 2-1 battle and would have killed Goku again if Vegeta didn't interfere and Goku saved at the last minute. Throughout the entire saga the only reason why any of the Saiyans were still alive were because of their allies. Black would have killed everyone in the Time Machine if Trunks didn't interfered.

They were planning the long game and they wanted Black to get as strong as possible before fusing. To them, Merged Zamasu was the final step and Black probably didn't want to merged because he didn't want immorality.

No, you're really not changing my mind because your entire argument is based on cherry-picking Black's behavior, instead of looking at his overall performance and exactly how Goku survived as long as he did.

Black stabbed vegeta in their first fight, leaving him near death when he could have killed him. He stabbed goku and took timeout to provoke him, then turned him into pincushion but didn't finish any of them off when he was stronger. He stabbed trunks leaving him near death instead of letting him self-destruct on an immortal zamasu. He also played clone games with Goku and geets when he was strong enough to kill them. Goku black wanted his opponents to get stronger, so that he can get stronger

Black only said once that he wanted Goku and Vegeta to become stronger and that when he made his clone.

He didn't leave Vegeta near death so he can get stronger, Black and Future Zamasu were going to kill him right there if Mai didn't save him.

Black tried to kill everyone in the Time Machine when they were retreating, he didn't care for them to get stronger.

He was going to kill Trunks after stabbing him, but sense Goku's return and went to fight him.

[HeroR]

Love how we an now making in universe excuses for the anime to ignore and go against Toriyamas wishes now... but let Toyotaro supposedly skip SSR (an assumption based on a few leaked panels and totally nonsensical overeaction with no evidence whatsoever) and all hell breaks loose... it like we aren't even pretending there's not a double standard anymore.

Edit* holy crap just read the rest of the cognitive dissonance and excuse/explanations in this thread. This is incredibly sad. Toriyama straight put a note that Black can go SSJ, Toei didn't do it for what ever reason. Period.
If they wanted to show him being a bad @ss and STILL RESPECT THE ORIGINAL CREATORS WRITING they could have showed Black power up to SSJ for a second and then further power up. Like how how would it be to add 3 seconds of animation. Jeez. I mean I guess we all think Toriyama just writes random notes like that for his own health and they don't have any meaning. If it wasn't for the manga we wouldn't have even realized that Black was supposed to be able to do this. I don't know how you can argue that NOT KNOWING an important character, especially the MAiN F-ing VILLAIN had additional forms but we didn't get to see them. Like just image Frieza going straight to his final form and never showing his other ones but being told he has more he's not going to show you, the same with Cell or even Buu. This IS NOT NORMAL for a Dragonball series. Skipping crap is just because, especially something like this is not how standard Dragonball animated series have played out. Stop acting like it normal for this franchise, it's not.

All Toriyama's note said that Black could go Super Saiyan, while he went out of his way to draw Super Saiyan Rose and note the differences. And did your read Toriyama's outline? Did the outline said Black goes Super Saiyan at any point? Having Toriyama note as a side note, Black can go Super Saiyan, vs, Black goes Super Saiyan to fight so-and-so are two different things.

And how is Black going Super Saiyan major? It's an interesting fact, but it doesn't break the story. That's different from possibly skipping the villain's strongest form. That is like having Freeza never used his true form, while he uses only his second or third form, vs Freeza starting at his first form and going straight to his true form.

[Grimlock]

The new chapter is out. It seems Vegeta fights using Super Saiyan 2, but they don't acknowledge Goku Black as a Super Saiyan 2 (well, it should be noted that although he has sparks most of the time, his hair is that of a Super Saiyan most of the time too).

Toyotaro will finish Future Trunks saga next year.

[Doctor.]

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

[Helios518]

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

May you explain how?

[Basako]

All Toriyama's note said that Black could go Super Saiyan, while he went out of his way to draw Super Saiyan Rose and note the differences. And did your read Toriyama's outline? Did the outline said Black goes Super Saiyan at any point? Having Toriyama note as a side note, Black can go Super Saiyan, vs, Black goes Super Saiyan to fight so-and-so are two different things.

And how is Black going Super Saiyan major? It's an interesting fact, but it doesn't break the story. That's different from possibly skipping the villain's strongest form. That is like having Freeza never used his true form, while he uses only his second or third form, vs Freeza starting at his first form and going straight to his true form.

Well, the notes didn't say he goes SS, neither that he doesn't, like in the anime.

It's interesting as a power scaling, enemies can have that too, like Cell or Frost. They didn't go to their last form immediatly. Vegeta's SSB is stronger than Black's SS form and we got to see how he kicked Black's ass like that. But Black still keeps the SSR form under his sleeve, probably. Just think for a moment we didn't know he had it and we didn't know the story. Next chapter would have been a great surprise, like, what is that??? He still has the fusion, that's a sure thing.

I still have my questions about the rose form, it looks cool, but I don't know what exactly is. Some theories about the ki, but...

Toyotaro is doing a great job and his art is flawless.

[Doctor.]

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

May you explain how?

Base Black beat Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was stated to be around the same level as Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta then not only beats base Black but Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 Black as well.

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta > Super Saiyan 1/2 Black > Base Black > Super Saiyan 2 Trunks = Super Saiyan 3 Goku

[Alruneia]

The new chapter is out. It seems Vegeta fights using Super Saiyan 2, but they don't acknowledge Goku Black as a Super Saiyan 2 (well, it should be noted that although he has sparks most of the time, his hair is that of a Super Saiyan most of the time too).

Toyotaro will finish Future Trunks saga next year indeed.

Super Vegito did have sparks as SSJ1 in the manga and anime, so those aren't a 100 % indicator of SSJ2. The sparks persist when Black has all bangs down and the hairstyle is exactly the SSJ1 Goku style. I think we have to use the hair as a guide, and to my eyes, the hairstyle almost always checks out as SSJ1, though sometimes blown upwards a little by wind. I'm going to have to say it's SSJ1 Black.

[MathSSJ]

So Trunks, the strongest SSJ2 we've ever seen so far, had massive trouble with Black, yet SSj2 Vegeta, who is presumably at the same level as SSJ2 Goku, hence weaker then Trunks, is dominating Black? Why did Trunks have trouble with him in the first place?

[Grimlock]

Super Vegito did have sparks as SSJ1 in the manga and anime;

In the manga Vegetto had sparks for just one panel and the anime adds sparks everywhere for effect purposes.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

I mean the art is still good and consistent between chapters, in that regard I still enjoy Toyo's Manga.

[Helios518]

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

May you explain how?

Base Black beat Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was stated to be around the same level as Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta then not only beats base Black but Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 Black as well.

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta > Super Saiyan 1/2 Black > Base Black > Super Saiyan 2 Trunks = Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Wasn't SSJB Vegeta the one to beat SSJ/2 Black?

[Doctor.]

May you explain how?

Base Black beat Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was stated to be around the same level as Super Saiyan 3 Goku.
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta then not only beats base Black but Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 Black as well.

Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta > Super Saiyan 1/2 Black > Base Black > Super Saiyan 2 Trunks = Super Saiyan 3 Goku

Wasn't SSJB Vegeta the one to beat SSJ/2 Black?

He turned Blue later, but he was clearly winning just as a normal SS2.

[Draconic]

Knowing how much work Toyotaro has under his sleeve I'm not going to put it too much against him, but this is probably the blandest chapter he's put out yet. The fight is boring and while his panel composition wasn't that great before, it's pretty non-existent right now. Everything is so... linear. Zamasu's entrance has no weight, Black is jobbing hard. It's really sad. I enjoy the fact that Black has a regular Super Saiyan form, but up until now the power levels were fine in the manga and right now it seems they got screwed here too. Not to mention Vegeta stomping Black in two forms is pretty lame. Why couldn't Toyotaro have had Vegeta just go Blue from the start and avoid all of this? It's pretty bad padding, imo. I think there was enough space to squeeze at least another plot point in here. I shat on the previous two chapters and they were much better than this one. This is just... terrible.

The artwork was more consistent that the last two chapters, though, so I guess there's that.

[LightBing]

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

As thing are I agree but unless you know what it's being said, it's best not to jump the gun. SSJ2 Trunks being comparable to SSJ3 Goku was silly until it was explained. Better to wait for the translation before making statements like that, which will only contribute to unravel this thread. Which around this time doesn't need any more of that.

[Kanassa]

Damn, Black got his ass beat worse than how the anime had him beat Vegeta. Geez, wasn't this character supposed to be threatening in the least? The manga version just keeps getting worse.

Also, why is everyone here referring to Zamasu as 'Daddy Zamasu'?

[ekrolo2]

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

Until a translation proves otherwise and I doubt it will even when we get one, the scaling is pretty boned yeah.

[HeroR]

I am a little confuse. Did Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta really beat back Super Saiyan 1/2 Black? If so, why didn't Trunks fight evenly with him since his Super Saiyan 2 is as strong as Super Saiyan 3 Goku? I can only guess that in the manga, Vegeta must have the same mutated Super Saiyan 2. Maybe he master his Rage Vegeta mode.

Powercalling just got irredeemably fucked just like the anime with this one chapter. Shame, it was one of the few things the manga had over the anime, now it's gone.

As thing are I agree but unless you know what it's being said, it's best not to jump the gun. SSJ2 Trunks being comparable to SSJ3 Goku was silly until it was explained. Better to wait for the translation before making statements like that, which will only contribute to unravel this thread. Which around this time doesn't need any more of that.

How was it explained? If I remember correctly, all Trunks said he trained the form to be that strong.

[Khin]

Frankly, unless there's some explanation, there is indeed some bullshit in this chapter. Trunks, who is more or less on par with Super Saiyan 3 Goku got his shit wrecked by Base Black a few chapters prior, yet Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, who should only be on the level of Super Saiyan 2 Goku dominated not only Base Black, but even Super Saiyan (Or 2) Black ?

If this happened in the anime, I'm 100% sure people are gonna lose their shit.

Anyway, I got to say that I really love how regular Super Saiyan Black looks. And Present Zamasu's death is on par if not better than the anime, but it's really dumb for him to attack Beerus head-on. I particularly liked how the attack Beerus used was very similar to what he did to the egg in the BoG movie, a nice callback. One thing I also like is the water-like effect Toyo is using for Super Saiyan Blue, we barely see that in the anime (The last time we saw something like that was against Cabba I think).

I still dislike how Zamasu having an emo look in the manga, and Black just seems to have less charisma here than in the anime. But given that it's from Toriyama himself, I'm pretty sure we're going to see him go Rosé next chapter.

[LightBing]

How was it explained? If I remember correctly, all Trunks said he trained the form to be that strong.

That's it. It's not detailed but it addresses the problem.

By the way I like your Mutated SSJ2 Vegeta theory. I would love if that was what happened here. Although it would have to replace regular SSJ2, since they look the same.