Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Yeah, manga just completely screwed up the perfectly decent scalling they had established up to this point. It's no longer a viable source for powerscalling either.

Since when was the manga good for power scaling outside of the manga? Also, the scale went off the rails when it randomly gave Trunks a mutated Super Saiyan 2 that is more powerful than Goku's Super Saiyan 3.

Because Trunks was training 24/7 of his life and even said so in that same chapter. Plus, this is nothing compared to how SSJ2 Trunks was able to take on SSJR Goku Black in EP 57 who was able to beat SSJB Vegeta who was originally beating up Trunks 3 episodes prior to 57....

Goku trains 24/7 of his life too and is a fighting genius who created the efficient Master Super Saiyan because Ultra Super Saiyan was both slow and a power drain. Why didn't Goku discover this mutated Super Saiyan 2 in all his training and still used the fuel-sucking Super Saiyan 3 against Beerus. And Trunks didn't take on Super Saiyan Rose Goku. He caught him off-guard once and he never touched Black again until he got his new Super Saiyan form. Just look at Trunks' performance in Episode 61 where he did terribly.

Ok, how the heck could Toyotaru have messed up this badly? I mean Toei was a given, since each episode has a different writer, so theyd make some mistakes eventually, but the manga is has one writer...

The entire Future Trunks Saga was writing by practically one person. The same with the Champa Saga which the majority was done by King Ryu. So Super doesn't really have multiplier writers per episode.

[MathSSJ]

Ok, how the heck could Toyotaru have messed up this badly? I mean Toei was a given, since each episode has a different writer, so theyd make some mistakes eventually, but the manga is has one writer...

Did people seriously expect good writing from the guy who wrote AF? It was only a matter of time until people started seeing the flaws in his writing, flaws which were present from the beginning.

Ye, but these are pretty serious flaws. Base Black should be above ssj3 Goku, so unless ssj1/2 Vegeta is secretly way stronger than ssj3 Goku, he should get his butt kicked.

Power scaling isn't a serious flaw. What's a serious problem is how avert Toyotaro is in investing the characters into the plot. Even Trunks, it feels like he barely gives a shit on what happened. The outburst he had feels more like an outlier then an actual plausible raction with how has been handled as of late.

[Marlowe89]

Again though, has anyone actually translated the chapter yet? I don't think it's likely to explain or acknowledge anything in regards to the power discrepancy but it's not impossible.

[Freeza9000]

Since when was the manga good for power scaling outside of the manga? Also, the scale went off the rails when it randomly gave Trunks a mutated Super Saiyan 2 that is more powerful than Goku's Super Saiyan 3.

Because Trunks was training 24/7 of his life and even said so in that same chapter. Plus, this is nothing compared to how SSJ2 Trunks was able to take on SSJR Goku Black in EP 57 who was able to beat SSJB Vegeta who was originally beating up Trunks 3 episodes prior to 57....

Goku trains 24/7 of his life too and is a fighting genius who created the efficient Master Super Saiyan because Ultra Super Saiyan was both slow and a power drain. Why didn't Goku discover this mutated Super Saiyan 2 in all his training and still used the fuel-sucking Super Saiyan 3 against Beerus. And Trunks didn't take on Super Saiyan Rose Goku. He caught him off-guard once and he never touched Black again until he got his new Super Saiyan form. Just look at Trunks' performance in Episode 61 where he did terribly.

Ok, but SSJ2 Trunks was able to use his sword to block Black's ki blade which should've destroyed Trunks's sword like a twig considering how much stronger Black is compared to Trunks. Also, need I remind you that Trunks was able to block Merged Zamasu's sword in the same fashion who should be a fucktillion times stronger than Trunks?

[Lord Beerus]

Again though, has anyone actually translated the chapter yet? I don't think it's likely to explain anything in regards to the power discrepancy but it's not impossible.

I don't think any kind of dialouge will be able to explain the bullshit we just saw. Dragon Ball is a series where actions speak louder than words, especially considering how much strength drive the plot. You can't even say Black was not fighting serious or no selling the attacks from Vegeta, because Zamasu has to save him from dying at Vegeta's hand and heals him. I'm guessing the next chapter will have Black getting a Zenkai from this and leading to SSJ Rose or him getting stronger through another means, but even that seems unlikely given that Toyataro has stated that he's going to be ahead of the anime by the time the next arc begins in February. So the next chapter most likely won't have time for that will skip straight to Merged Zamasu and the conclusion of the arc. Unless of course, Toyataro was full of shit when he said that. But how could he be?

How in God's name is Toyatoro going to dig himself out of this hole?

[HeroR]

Ok, but SSJ2 Trunks was able to use his sword to block Black's ki blade which should've destroyed Trunks's sword like a twig considering how much stronger Black is compared to Trunks. Also, need I remind you that Trunks was able to block Merged Zamasu's sword in the same fashion who should be a fucktillion times stronger than Trunks?

At the time, Trunks was fueled by holy fury on top of catching Black off-guard. I mean, Black even have the WTF face when Trunks suddenly jumped in. And do you mean Merged Zamasu after Vegetto beat him up and he was said to be growing weaker because his mind was going to shit?

[Bullza]

Whether Black was Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 it still makes no sense. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks should be about four times as strong as Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta so Black should make easy work of him without having to transform at all.

There's this page in the chapter where he appears to power up further when fighting Blue Vegeta so perhaps he wasn't at full power when fighting Vegeta before...it still doesn't make sense though.

This chapter makes it look as though Black is as strong as Goku which is what would make sense in general but he's not supposed to be.

[HeroR]

Again though, has anyone actually translated the chapter yet? I don't think it's likely to explain anything in regards to the power discrepancy but it's not impossible.

I don't think any kind of dialouge will be able to explain the bullshit we just saw. Dragon Ball is a series where actions speak louder than words, especially considering how much strength drive the plot. You can't even say Black was not fighting serious or no selling the attacks from Vegeta, because Zamasu has to save him from dying at Vegeta's hand and heals him. I'm guessing the next chapter will have Black getting a Zenkai from this and leading to SSJ Rose or him getting stronger through another means, but even that seems unlikely given that Toyataro has stated that he's going to be ahead of the anime by the time the next arc begins in February. So the next chapter most likely won't have time for that will skip straight to Merged Zamasu and the conclusion of the arc. Unless of course, Toyataro was full of shit when he said that. But how could he be?

How in in God's name is Toyatoro going to dig himself out of this hole?

Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Zamasu can heal. That isn't a Kai trick since only Kibito could do it in U7.

[Freeza9000]

Ok, but SSJ2 Trunks was able to use his sword to block Black's ki blade which should've destroyed Trunks's sword like a twig considering how much stronger Black is compared to Trunks. Also, need I remind you that Trunks was able to block Merged Zamasu's sword in the same fashion who should be a fucktillion times stronger than Trunks?

At the time, Trunks was fueled by holy fury on top of catching Black off-guard. I mean, Black even have the WTF face when Trunks suddenly jumped in. And do you mean Merged Zamasu after Vegetto beat him up and he was said to be growing weaker because his mind was going to shit?

And then Black and Trunks were having a short sword duel which Trunks kicked Black into a building. So how can you say that Black was off guard? Also, Merged Zamasu was able to tank the Final Kamehameha to the face and fly up the sky gleefully making more declarations about how great his godhood is. So I doubt he was getting that much weaker.

[TheMikado]

Again though, has anyone actually translated the chapter yet? I don't think it's likely to explain anything in regards to the power discrepancy but it's not impossible.

I don't think any kind of dialouge will be able to explain the bullshit we just saw. Dragon Ball is a series where actions speak louder than words, especially considering how much strength drive the plot. You can't even say Black was not fighting serious or no selling the attacks from Vegeta, because Zamasu has to save him from dying at Vegeta's hand and heals him. I'm guessing the next chapter will have Black getting a Zenkai from this and leading to SSJ Rose or him getting stronger through another means, but even that seems unlikely given that Toyataro has stated that he's going to be ahead of the anime by the time the next arc begins in February. So the next chapter most likely won't have time for that will skip straight to Merged Zamasu and the conclusion of the arc. Unless of course, Toyataro was full of shit when he said that. But how could he be?

How in in God's name is Toyatoro going to dig himself out of this hole?

I'll say what I said in the other thread, it's no coincidence
that we have Black wiping SSJ Trunks butt who somehow suddenly gets Super strong in both versions at some point with an unexplained form and then SSB Vegeta somehow also manages to wipe Blacks butt. I think the scaling is fucked from the outline and that this is probably squarely on Toriyama for not caring at all. Both versions are screwed but took different approaches to try to fix them. I apologize for blaming Toei when it seems Toriyama is really the one who doesn't care and both are trying to do whatever they can with what they have.

[buutenks]

You cant deny that Trunks got powerups out of nowhere in the anime. But i didnt expect such inconsistency in the manga.

Toyotaru could have easily fixed it by simply have ssj Black kick Vegeta's butt, then Vegeta goes ssj blue and kicks back and then Zamasu saves him.

[Lord Beerus]

Again though, has anyone actually translated the chapter yet? I don't think it's likely to explain anything in regards to the power discrepancy but it's not impossible.

I don't think any kind of dialouge will be able to explain the bullshit we just saw. Dragon Ball is a series where actions speak louder than words, especially considering how much strength drive the plot. You can't even say Black was not fighting serious or no selling the attacks from Vegeta, because Zamasu has to save him from dying at Vegeta's hand and heals him. I'm guessing the next chapter will have Black getting a Zenkai from this and leading to SSJ Rose or him getting stronger through another means, but even that seems unlikely given that Toyataro has stated that he's going to be ahead of the anime by the time the next arc begins in February. So the next chapter most likely won't have time for that will skip straight to Merged Zamasu and the conclusion of the arc. Unless of course, Toyataro was full of shit when he said that. But how could he be?

How in in God's name is Toyatoro going to dig himself out of this hole?

Am I the only one who finds it interesting that Zamasu can heal. That isn't a Kai trick since only Kibito could do it in U7.

I thought Kibito was a Shinjin. Is he not?

You cant deny that Trunks got powerups out of nowhere in the anime. But i didnt expect such inconsistency in the manga.

Toyotaru could have easily fixed it by simply have ssj Black kick Vegeta's butt, then Vegeta goes ssj blue and kicks back and then Zamasu saves him.

I think at this stage Toyataro cares too much from making sure Vegeta (and SSJB) look cool and untouchable that he doesn't take into consideration the ramifications it may have on the consistency of the plot.

[HeroR]

And then Black and Trunks were having a short sword duel which Trunks kicked Black into a building. So how can you say that Black was off guard? Also, Merged Zamasu was able to tank the Final Kamehameha to the face and fly up the sky gleefully making more declarations about how great his godhood is. So I doubt he was getting that much weaker.

The sword fight was so brief that it last barely several seconds, and we see Black didn't get his bearings again until he screamed Trunks' name. We didn't see him tank it. We saw him flying up after the blast hit and a cloud of smoke. Vegetto also kicked him and smashed his fist into his face before defusing. We also saw Merged Zamasu just went off the deep end after seeing Trunks again and he was basically a ravaging manic.

You cant deny that Trunks got powerups out of nowhere in the anime. But i didnt expect such inconsistency in the manga.

Toyotaru could have easily fixed it by simply have ssj Black kick Vegeta's butt, then Vegeta goes ssj blue and kicks back and then Zamasu saves him.

The only power-up Trunks officially got was his Super Trunks form. His other power boosts were most likely from rage since he tended to hit quick and then go down just as fast.

[buutenks]

I think at this stage Toyataro cares too much from making sure Vegeta (and SSJB) look cool and untouchable that he doesn't take into consideration the ramifications it may have on the consistency of the plot.

Is he a big Vegeta fan?

And here i thought the manga was way more consistent than the anime. Seems that changed.

[HeroR]

I thought Kibito was a Shinjin. Is he not?

When you say Shinjin, do you mean a Kai?

[Overlord78]

Well done Toyotaro, now the manga has a fucked up powerscale (not as bad as the anime but it's still pretty bad). Guess I was expecting too much but this is the guy who wrote AF so it was only a matter of time.

[Draconic]

Can someone tell me what are the power level problems in the anime? The more and more I think about them, except for the Rage form Trunks got out of nowhere, everything is pretty clear.

[Freeza9000]

And then Black and Trunks were having a short sword duel which Trunks kicked Black into a building. So how can you say that Black was off guard? Also, Merged Zamasu was able to tank the Final Kamehameha to the face and fly up the sky gleefully making more declarations about how great his godhood is. So I doubt he was getting that much weaker.

The sword fight was so brief that it last barely several seconds, and we see Black didn't get his bearings again until he screamed Trunks' name. We didn't see him tank it. We saw him flying up after the blast hit and a cloud of smoke. Vegetto also kicked him and smashed his fist into his face before defusing. We also saw Merged Zamasu just went off the deep end after seeing Trunks again and he was basically a ravaging manic.

Merged Zamasu losing his sanity isn't an excuse as to how Trunks's ki sword didn't snap like a twig when Merged Zamasu was pinning Trunks down with his own ki sword and taunting Trunks. Like I have said before, Merged Zamasu should be significantly more powerful than the likes of Trunks. If anything, Zamasu becoming more insane should make him able to break through Trunks's sword and slice Trunks there.

[Lord Beerus]

I thought Kibito was a Shinjin. Is he not?

When you say Shinjin, do you mean a Kai?

Yeah, that's what I mean.

[HeroR]

Can someone tell me what are the power level problems in the anime? The more and more I think about them, except for the Rage form Trunks got out of nowhere, everything is pretty clear.

Most of the debates here centers around if Goku and Vegeta's base forms use god ki. Like, do they have a weak base form and a story base form that they used. Like Piccolo's fight with Frost. Piccolo did well despite being outmatch, so was base form Goku the same base form that fought final form Freeza after he trained. Then, they're the golden forms and wondering what the multiplier behind Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, is Super Saiyan God = to base form or Super Saiyan.