"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[THEGOKU]

Yeah the manga and anime have clearly said FUCK IT when it comes to power levels. I'm not sure how I feel about this if there is no SSJR. That kind of seems like a integral part of the story and considering there is probably one chapter left for this arc I can't see how he would cram something like that all together.

[SansrivaaL]

Wait. The vegeta that was beating black around in the new chapter was SSJ2? I thought he was SSB. That makes no sense

He fights him first as an SS2 then as Blue and kicks Blacks ass in both when it was established that Base Black was stronger than SS2 Trunks who was in turn a lot stronger than SS2 Goku and Vegeta.

Man, I can get over how fucked up that is. Hell, the pure idea that SSJ2 Future Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku was bad enough, but this scenario is just... terrible. Neither the anime or the manga have any can kind of consistency in power scaling now. This is going to be a nightmare for the regular posters in the Battle Power threads, as they are going to have to try and work their way around this. I kinda feel sorry for them.

Anime and manga doesnt give 2 shits about powerscaling anymore, well maybe the translation can do something about it but still, Goku's SSJ3 was almost close to Trunks' SSJ2 and we see how Black stomped him in base but now we got SSJ2 Vegeta whooping SSJ Black's ass....

[TheMikado]

Eh, if you're gonna bother trying to make sense of the scaling at this point, you deserve any headache that comes your way. I am officially done unless a translation reveals something we're missing.

When you say you are done, do you mean you are done with the anime and the manga?

I'm done with the scaling debates, the only answer that counts is that its shit everywhere now. As for the actual stories? At this point I'm just watching it for the inevitable slew of remakes I'll have to write for em.

I'm in this same train, the only logical explanation at this point is that Toriyama didn't care enough about consistency when he "wrote" the original outline. If enough effort isn't put into providing a consistent story I doubt I'll continue to invest in it as a viewer. I was putting a bunch of this on Toei but it looks like they are trying to do the best they can with whatever they're getting which isn't fair to any of us.

[Grimlock]

I'm done with scale power debates since the debut of Movie 15...


It's been discovered that I live a happy life nowadays.

[Lord Beerus]

Man, I can get over how fucked up that is. Hell, the pure idea that SSJ2 Future Trunks was on par with SSJ3 Goku was bad enough, but this scenario is just... terrible. Neither the anime or the manga have any can kind of consistency in power scaling now. This is going to be a nightmare for the regular posters in the Battle Power threads, as they are going to have to try and work their way around this. I kinda feel sorry for them.

The anime does have consistency. The only one who who wobbles was Future Trunks and some of that can be hand wave as rage boosts and catching people off-guard. There is also Goku's performance against Merged Zamasu, but at least that cost Goku's limbs. I guess I throw Piccolo in here while I'm at it, which is explained as Frost being weakened by Goku and him underestimating Piccolo.

This, if there is no good explanation, is just weird because the manga made base Black stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks, who was an even match against Super Saiyan 3 Goku. Now, we have Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta kicking Super Saiyan 1/2 Black's butt. In this case, it almost seems the writer forgot their own power scaling.

I think the anime could solve all of it's power consistency issues if it just addressed when/if/how Goku and Vegeta tap into God Ki outside of Super Saiyan Blue. The rage induced SSJ Future Trunks stuff can be hand-waved as a Rage Boost transformation, but it just needed more context behind it. Like Future Trunks training with Whis or training with Goku and/or Vegeta in the ROSAT. I mean, in the gap in strength between Future Trunks and SSJR Goku Black is HUGE. And for Future Trunks to be able to catch up to a certain degree, or the very least get close to SSJR Goku Black's tier of strength, with one Rage Boost transformation is insane. We've seen transformations pulled out thin air before but... damn.

The whole chapter was a vegeta wankfest

Well, someone has to make Vegeta look good. It certainly not the anime /s.

Hey! He... beat up Golden Freeza. And he... beat a Freeza clone, a scrub Saiyan, and giant robot. That means... something. Right?

[Neon Z]

I think you should wait for the translation. There's that odd scene where a worried Trunks leaves to tell Goku something and then Goku immediately shouts to Vegeta, who attempts to end the battle. If this is the equivalent of Goku vs Black in the past from the anime, he was stated to be holding back there. So, let's wait for the text in order to be sure there's a plothole going on...

[THEGOKU]

I'm done with scale power debates since the debut of Movie 15...


It's been discovered that I live a happy life nowadays.

Yeah trying to understand all of this is too much of a headache. It's really not worth debating or talking about without anything official to explain it. Honestly speaking I don't think for now at least we will have anything official to explain all this. Lord knows what is going to happen in this universal arc in terms of power levels.

[HeroR]

Wouldn't the whole issue be Toriyamas fault if he called for Black to beat SSJ Trunks in base and then turn around and get beat down by SSB Vegeta while still having the ability to go SSJ??? Like SSJ Black alone according to the initial powerscaling against Trunks should be enough to take on SSB Vegeta but if it calls for Blacks SSB equivalent to be weaker than SSB Vegeta and get beat down which happens in both versions it looks like the whole arcs consistency was completely trashed from the beginning and both took different approaches to fix it. Neither looking very successful.

The thing is that being beating by Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't the problem. The reason why Vegeta beat up Super Saiyan Rose in the anime is because Vegeta trained, after it was shown several times that Black was extremely powerful. So in the anime's case, they made Black a threat for the heroes to raise to. The manga, at first made Black a threat, even bigger than anime Black at the time, and then this happened. Vegeta didn't need to train or get stronger to meet Black's level, he already surpassed Black. And you're assuming that Toriyama's outline said Black went Super Saiyan at any point. As far as we know, the note he put on the Super Saiyan Rose character sheets was a FYI. Trivia, but you don't need to used it, like 16's entire backstory.

If the manga wanted to used both, what could have happened is that Super Saiyan Black fights Vegeta while Vegeta uses one of his gold forms like a sparring match, like what Goku did against Black when they first met.

I'm in this same train, the only logical explanation at this point is that Toriyama didn't care enough about consistency when he "wrote" the original outline. If enough effort isn't put into providing a consistent story I doubt I'll continue to invest in it as a viewer. I was putting a bunch of this on Toei but it looks like they are trying to do the best they can with whatever they're getting which isn't fair to any of us.

Toriyama's outline was already stated several times to be barebone. It has the basic events, but it's up to Toei and the manga to fill in how A, B, C happened. Like this:

- Trunks is hiding from Black, hide his face.
- Black kills Bulma.
- Trunks meet up with Mai and tells her about Bulma's death.
- Trunks and Mai head for the Time Machine, only have enough fuel for one-way.
- Black ambushes Trunks and Mai, and seemingly kills Mai.
- Trunks fight Black, but can't win. Escapes with an energy blast and gets into the time machine.

I just outline the basic events of the start of the arc. Now it's up to the team to make a story out of it.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm putting the blame for this scenario 100% on Toriyama. It's ultimately his outline for the plot that Toyataro is following and it's clear he didn't think any of this through. He's put Toyataro and the Toei anime writing staff in a corner with his bare bones and contradictory plot outline. This is all on him. Toriyama giving Toyataro carte blanche in regards to the plot of the manga certainly didn't help either.

[HeroR]

I think the anime could solve all of it's power consistency issues if it just addressed when/if/how Goku and Vegeta tap into God Ki outside of Super Saiyan Blue. The rage induced SSJ Future Trunks stuff can be hand-waved as a Rage Boost transformation, but it just needed more context behind it. Like Future Trunks training with Whis or training with Goku and/or Vegeta in the ROSAT. I mean, in the gap in strength between Future Trunks and SSJR Goku Black is HUGE. And for Future Trunks to be able to catch up to a certain degree, or the very least get close to SSJR Goku Black's tier of strength, with one Rage Boost transformation is insane. We've seen transformation pulled out thin air before but... damn.

The whole chapter was a vegeta wankfest

Well, someone has to make Vegeta look good. It certainly not the anime /s.

Hey! He... beat up Golden Freeza. And he... beat a Freeza clone, a scrub Saiyan, and giant robot. That's mean... something. Right?

In the anime, we know that Goku and Vegeta's base forms do not use any kind of god ki. The anime implies this since Goku and Vegeta's ki can be sense in all their forms, except Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Even in this last episode, Piccolo explicitly said that he couldn't sense Goku anymore, so he must be a god. Whis didn't want to train anyone, not even Goku. Vegeta and Trunks did train, just not in the time chamber. Also, the gap between Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is huge and Sorbet still put a laser in his heart in the movie. Plus, Trunks performed noticeably worse in Episode 61 where Black stomped him completely and he did the worse of all the fighters. As for the transformation, it's big boost, but not unheard in this series. I mean, how do you explain a half-dead Goku who got stomped by Freeza using only a third of his power, suddenly beating the shit out of 100% Freeza.

[Doctor.]

I'm putting the blame for this scenario 100% on Toriyama. It's ultimately his outline for the plot that Toyataro is following and it's clear he didn't think any of this through. He's put Toyataro and the Toei anime writing staff in a corner with his bare bones and contradictory plot outline. This is all on him. Toriyama giving Toyataro carte blanche in regards to the plot of the manga certainly didn't help either.

I'm not against laying the blame on Toriyama, but I don't think this is his fault, per se. His outline is probably very, very, very barebones. Something like "Vegeta and Goku go to the future, Vegeta fights Black and wins, Black gets stronger and gains the upperhand again", without specifying much, forcing Toyotaro and Toei to finding their own ways around the outline. But I don't think Toriyama ever wrote anything contradictory on his own. He's at fault for not being more detailed (his description of Rosé Black proves he's not), but Toyotaro and Toei are still at fault for not being consistent. They're all hacks.

[HeroR]

I'm putting the blame for this scenario 100% on Toriyama. It's ultimately his outline for the plot that Toyataro is following and it's clear he didn't think any of this through. He's put Toyataro and the Toei anime writing staff in a corner with his bare bones and contradictory plot outline. This is all on him. Toriyama giving Toyataro carte blanche in regards to the plot of the manga certainly didn't help either.

Did you see the outline. If you have, can I see your copy?

[Lord Beerus]

I think the anime could solve all of it's power consistency issues if it just addressed when/if/how Goku and Vegeta tap into God Ki outside of Super Saiyan Blue. The rage induced SSJ Future Trunks stuff can be hand-waved as a Rage Boost transformation, but it just needed more context behind it. Like Future Trunks training with Whis or training with Goku and/or Vegeta in the ROSAT. I mean, in the gap in strength between Future Trunks and SSJR Goku Black is HUGE. And for Future Trunks to be able to catch up to a certain degree, or the very least get close to SSJR Goku Black's tier of strength, with one Rage Boost transformation is insane. We've seen transformation pulled out thin air before but... damn.

Well, someone has to make Vegeta look good. It certainly not the anime /s.

Hey! He... beat up Golden Freeza. And he... beat a Freeza clone, a scrub Saiyan, and giant robot. That's mean... something. Right?

In the anime, we know that Goku and Vegeta's base forms do not use any kind of god ki. The anime implies this since Goku and Vegeta's ki can be sense in all their forms, except Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Even in this last episode, Piccolo explicitly said that he couldn't sense Goku anymore, so he must be a god. Whis didn't want to train anyone, not even Goku. Vegeta and Trunks did train, just not in the time chamber. Also, the gap between Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku is huge and Sorbet still put a laser in his heart in the movie. Plus, Trunks performed noticeably worse in Episode 61 where Black stomped him completely and he did the worse of all the fighters. As for the transformation, it's big boost, but not unheard in this series. I mean, how do you explain a half-dead Goku who got stomped by Freeza using only a third of his power, suddenly beating the shit out of 100% Freeza.

Fair enough. But answer this... when and how the hell did Piccolo reach God-tier? You can't tell me he reached that level by just training with Gohan because that is just absurd. But then again, Piccolo went from Second Form Freeza tier to Goku and Vegeta SSJ tier in just three years of off-screen regular training. But once he went into the ROSAT, he maxed out his strength. Maybe Piccolo had more hidden gains in him, like Gohan (Elder Kai Unlocked Potential), Goku (Super Saiyan 3) and Vegeta (Raging SSJ2), that he wasn't aware off. Wouldn't be the first time for a case like this in Dragon Ball.

[Beyond]

predictions for outline in next arc

Get a team of 10 (you know the ones)

Show Goku and Vegeta training.

Before tourny starts, Zeno says all losing universe get blown up. Everyone else freaks out because they didn't train.

Everyone not name Goku and Vegeta jobs (Gohan gets one win to appease the fans).

Vegeta jobs to the big bad.

Goku wins.

How much you wanna bet?

[HeroR]

Fair enough. But answer this... when and how the hell did Piccolo reach God-tier? You can't tell me he reached that level by just training with Gohan because that is just absurd. But then again, Piccolo went from Second Form Freeza tier to Goku and Vegeta SSJ tier in just three years of off-screen regular training. But once he went into the ROSAT, he maxed out his strength. Maybe Piccolo had more hidden gains in him, like Gohan (Elder Kai Unlocked Potential), Goku (Super Saiyan 3) and Vegeta (Raging SSJ2), that he wasn't aware off. Wouldn't be the first time for a case like this in Dragon Ball.

As far as the anime has shown us, Piccolo isn't 'god-level'. In the anime, it is shown that when you reach a certain level of power you can read god ki. Whis mentioned this in Episode 18 when he says that Goku and Vegeta can barely sense the level of the gods. Golden Freeza and Hit can also sense god ki, Freeza really stands out since he couldn't sense any kind of ki before he trained. Trunks couldn't sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegeta, while he could sense Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Vegetto, after unlocking a form that put him on par with Goku and Vegeta.

Piccolo, not even now, can sense god ki. His best performance was against Frost, an opponent that Goku said he stood no chance against. Frost then said that he didn't have any strength left to kill Piccolo. Now, Frost isn't truthful, but he could barely stand after Goku kicked him around, so he wasn't at full power. Frost was also confident he would win since everyone assumed Piccolo was screwed.

What Piccolo's level at this stage is completely unknown.

predictions for outline in next arc

Get a team of 10 (you know the ones)

Show Goku and Vegeta training.

Before tourny starts, Zeno says all losing universe get blown up. Everyone else freaks out because they didn't train.

Everyone not name Goku and Vegeta jobs (Gohan gets one win to appease the fans).

Vegeta jobs to the big bad.

Goku wins.

How much you wanna bet?

That would be different since Goku hasn't had a straight win against the final opponent since Super started.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm putting the blame for this scenario 100% on Toriyama. It's ultimately his outline for the plot that Toyataro is following and it's clear he didn't think any of this through. He's put Toyataro and the Toei anime writing staff in a corner with his bare bones and contradictory plot outline. This is all on him. Toriyama giving Toyataro carte blanche in regards to the plot of the manga certainly didn't help either.

Did you seen the outline. If you have, can I see your copy?

Toyataro explicitly stated he follows the plot points from the outline given to him by Toriyama and doesn't diverge from him. Obviously the plot points, considering what we've seen this manga so far in relation to arc are:
- Black beats SSJ2 Future Trunks
- Mai dies ( )
- Future Trunks goes back in time
- SSJ2 Future Trunks fights SSJ3 Goku
- Zamasu is Black
- Beerus kills Zamasu
- Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks travel to the future
- Black transforms
- Vegeta transforms and fights Black

And considering that Toriyama gave Toyataro free reign to change the plot as he please, we can tell with the exclusion of Super Saiyan Rose that is in full effect. This is something that Toriyama not only allowed to happen but encouraged to happen.

[micah007]

Honestly some of you guys have to stop thinking of power levels so linearly. I realize that's what we've been accustomed to for most of Dragon Ball, but at this point with the franchise being so big "power consistency" will take a backseat to whatever story they want to tell and the showings they will need to tell it. I honestly can't imagine Hitto destroying universes with punches yet he's fighting a stronger version of the guy who was starting to do just that against Beerus. This happens all the time in comics, and now primarily manga readers are going to experience this through Super and beyond. Not necessarily a bad thing imo as long as the story is enjoyable and the art/animation is pretty to look at lol

[OLKv3]

Black is obviously sandbagging the fight, that's obvious from Base Black struggling with SSJ2 Vegeta, after he stomped SSJ2 Trunks. Trunks in this chapter is even confused and worried

[TheMikado]

I'm putting the blame for this scenario 100% on Toriyama. It's ultimately his outline for the plot that Toyataro is following and it's clear he didn't think any of this through. He's put Toyataro and the Toei anime writing staff in a corner with his bare bones and contradictory plot outline. This is all on him. Toriyama giving Toyataro carte blanche in regards to the plot of the manga certainly didn't help either.

Precisely, I feel like I did in the Champa arc where there are some very vague plot points and they are ordered to his each one. Toeis saving grace is that they left exactly what SSR was as ambiguous so that we could assume by the power scaling it was closer to SSJ than SSB to make the story work. Making Rose the SSB equivalent completely throws the anime scaling out the window when we know Black was close to SSB form in his base... I can see why they would leave the SSJ Black out to try to make the story less contradictory. In a vacuum, know this forms and what they are, the scaling makes zero sense in both.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I'm putting the blame for this scenario 100% on Toriyama. It's ultimately his outline for the plot that Toyataro is following and it's clear he didn't think any of this through. He's put Toyataro and the Toei anime writing staff in a corner with his bare bones and contradictory plot outline. This is all on him. Toriyama giving Toyataro carte blanche in regards to the plot of the manga certainly didn't help either.

Did you seen the outline. If you have, can I see your copy?

Toyataro explicitly stated he follows the plot points from the outline given to him by Toriyama and doesn't diverge from him. Obviously the plot points, considering what we've seen this manga so far in relation to arc are:
- Black beats SSJ2 Future Trunks
- Mai dies ( )
- Future Trunks goes back in time
- SSJ2 Future Trunks fights SSJ3 Goku
- Zamasu is Black
- Beerus kills Zamasu
- Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks travel to the future
- Black transforms
- Vegeta transforms and fights Black

And considering that Toriyama gave Toyataro free reign to change the plot as he please, we can tell with the exclusion of Super Saiyan Rose that is in full effect. This is something that Toriyama not only allowed to happen but encouraged to happen.

I don't think much stock should be put on that statement, he completely changed BoG, Toriyama made a big deal about ending the fight in regular SS. To him what maybe deemed important could be different to someone else. Ie Goku dropping out of SSG.