black's infinite zenkaisDraconic wrote:Can someone tell me what are the power level problems in the anime? The more and more I think about them, except for the Rage form Trunks got out of nowhere, everything is pretty clear.
Seriously question, but when have we ever seen a ki sword snap? A ki sword didn't even break when Beerus caught Present Zamasu's hand. And Merged Zamasu probably could have killed Trunks in that moment, if he wasn't doing his motive rant again and Trunks powered up because he was sick of Merged Zamasu's shit. That is when he started to glow too if I recall.Freeza9000 wrote:Merged Zamasu losing his sanity isn't an excuse as to how Trunks's ki sword didn't snap like a twig when Merged Zamasu was pinning Trunks down with his own ki sword and taunting Trunks. Like I have said before, Merged Zamasu should be significantly more powerful than the likes of Trunks. If anything, Zamasu becoming more insane should make him able to break through Trunks's sword and slice Trunks there.HeroR wrote:The sword fight was so brief that it last barely several seconds, and we see Black didn't get his bearings again until he screamed Trunks' name. We didn't see him tank it. We saw him flying up after the blast hit and a cloud of smoke. Vegetto also kicked him and smashed his fist into his face before defusing. We also saw Merged Zamasu just went off the deep end after seeing Trunks again and he was basically a ravaging manic.Freeza9000 wrote:
And then Black and Trunks were having a short sword duel which Trunks kicked Black into a building. So how can you say that Black was off guard? Also, Merged Zamasu was able to tank the Final Kamehameha to the face and fly up the sky gleefully making more declarations about how great his godhood is. So I doubt he was getting that much weaker.
Black's power-ups were never zenkais boost since zenkais doesn't work that way. Those are specifically near death power-ups.Abra kadabra wrote:black's infinite zenkaisDraconic wrote:Can someone tell me what are the power level problems in the anime? The more and more I think about them, except for the Rage form Trunks got out of nowhere, everything is pretty clear.
SSJ2 goku not getting mopped by Black
Black's scythe rage boost
Goku winning a beam struggle against merged zamasu alone
Goku damaging merged zamasu before KK
I don't think he's a Kai. He was never called one and he's a servant of the Supreme Kai.Lord Beerus wrote: Yeah, that's what I mean.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Hmm, the most obvious one is Trunks. He is at ssj2 Goku level for no reason from the get go. ssj2 Goku being above ssg and all, so its inconsistent. Then is Goku outdoing the father son galic gun attack by himself without using KK. Those r the more serious ones. Others being Piccolo vs Frost.Draconic wrote:Can someone tell me what are the power level problems in the anime? The more and more I think about them, except for the Rage form Trunks got out of nowhere, everything is pretty clear.
Remember when Trunks used his Genki Dama sword and destroyed Zamasu's ki blade or when Goku broke Black's ki sword when Goku was having this rage boost? Even if Zamasu was talking shit once more, shouldn't he alone be able to kill Trunks there? The power gap between Trunks and Merged Zamasu should be pretty large.HeroR wrote:Seriously question, but when have we ever seen a ki sword snap? A ki sword didn't even break when Beerus caught Present Zamasu's hand. And Merged Zamasu probably could have killed Trunks in that moment, if he wasn't doing his motive rant again and Trunks powered up because he was sick of Merged Zamasu's shit. That is when he started to glow too if I recall.Freeza9000 wrote:Merged Zamasu losing his sanity isn't an excuse as to how Trunks's ki sword didn't snap like a twig when Merged Zamasu was pinning Trunks down with his own ki sword and taunting Trunks. Like I have said before, Merged Zamasu should be significantly more powerful than the likes of Trunks. If anything, Zamasu becoming more insane should make him able to break through Trunks's sword and slice Trunks there.HeroR wrote:
The sword fight was so brief that it last barely several seconds, and we see Black didn't get his bearings again until he screamed Trunks' name. We didn't see him tank it. We saw him flying up after the blast hit and a cloud of smoke. Vegetto also kicked him and smashed his fist into his face before defusing. We also saw Merged Zamasu just went off the deep end after seeing Trunks again and he was basically a ravaging manic.
If those aren't Zenkais, who the hell are they then?HeroR wrote:Black's power-ups were never zenkais boost since zenkais doesn't work that way. Those are specifically near death power-ups.
Toriyama said in an interview that Saiyans naturally grow stronger the longer a battle goes on, which will eventually give them the advantage. Vegeta even says during the Champa Saga that it's a Saiyan traits to grow stronger and adapt through a battle once he witnessed Hit's improvements. They're not talking about near death power boosts.Freeza9000 wrote:If those aren't Zenkais, who the hell are they then?HeroR wrote:Black's power-ups were never zenkais boost since zenkais doesn't work that way. Those are specifically near death power-ups.
But that was also made with the power of everyone on the planet, including Goku and Vegeta, and it didn't break on the first swing. That sword lasted several swipes and Trunks needed to focused to break it. Black's sword, it looks like he turned it off himself, because he was all smiles when Goku powered up. Merged Zamasu had the chance to kill the heroes several dozen times, but he never shut up. He was like Future Zamasu on steroids.Freeza9000 wrote:
Remember when Trunks used his Genki Dama sword and destroyed Zamasu's ki blade or when Goku broke Black's ki sword when Goku was having this rage boost? Even if Zamasu was talking shit once more, shouldn't he alone be able to kill Trunks there? The power gap between Trunks and Merged Zamasu should be pretty large.
If you're holding back, you can get hurt or serious injured by weak attacks. Plus, the blows Black got from Goku happened when he was off-guard, first by being sucked into the portal and then by the Time Machine, and we now how dangerous that can be.Abra kadabra wrote:I did pay attention. They were both holding back and black was at a disadvantage getting pulled into his timeline. Goku black in base is stated to be stronger than SSJ3 goku but upon returning to the future. Falls to the ground like a brick. That shouldn't have happened.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Abra kadabra wrote:I did pay attention. They were both holding back and black was at a disadvantage getting pulled into the future timeline. Goku black in base is stated to be stronger than SSJ3 goku but upon returning to the future. Falls to the ground like a brick. That shouldn't have happened.
Nope. It's way bigger than that.TheUltimateNinja wrote:SSBlue is stronger than SSG which is in turn stronger than SSJ3 which is 8x stronger than SSJ, so at minimum SSBlue is at least 20x stronger than SSJ in the manga so that's still a pretty huge gap for Goku to overcome against Hit regardless of this new revelation.ZombieVito wrote:It fucks up the power scale hard. Now the gap between SSJ and Blue is enormous in the manga.TheUltimateNinja wrote:Until now I've been somewhat tolerant of Toyotaro's changes, but SSJ Black is just bullshit.
Now Hit vs SSJ Goku is impossible. There's no way SSJ Goku could fight Hit like that when the latter is hundreds of times stronger.
Toei did the right thing in just having Rose.
SSJ2 Goku is not god level.buutenks wrote:Hmm, the most obvious one is Trunks. He is at ssj2 Goku level for no reason from the get go. ssj2 Goku being above ssg and all, so its inconsistent. Then is Goku outdoing the father son galic gun attack by himself without using KK. Those r the more serious ones. Others being Piccolo vs Frost.Draconic wrote:Can someone tell me what are the power level problems in the anime? The more and more I think about them, except for the Rage form Trunks got out of nowhere, everything is pretty clear.
As for Trunks vs Enraged Merged Zamasu, nakama power ^^. Anyways i have nothing against Trunks powering up and finishing Zamasu, since it didnt do squat in the end lol.
He fell down because ssj2 Goku kicked him right in the chest or upper abdomen while the rift was pulling him in the future. Also he wasnt at the level of ssj3 Goku, so ofc he would get seriously hurt by someone of the exact same level. Reason why he fought Goku at his level is because he wanted to get hurt so he would grow stronger.Abra kadabra wrote:I did pay attention. They were both holding back and black was at a disadvantage getting pulled into his timeline. Goku black in base is stated to be stronger than SSJ3 goku but upon returning to the future. Falls to the ground like a brick. That shouldn't have happened.
Base Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the manga. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was an even match for Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and Goku used Super Saiyan God. So Black should reasonably be in the rage of Super Saiyan God Goku.ZombieVito wrote:
Nope. It's way bigger than that.
Base Black even in the manga is on par with SSJ3 Goku and then he has all of the SSJ transformations so the gap between SSJ3 Goku and SSB is way over 400 times but then Hit fighting just SSJ Goku is stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.
Doesn't make sense at all. The power scale in the manga is fucked now.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Merged Zamasu did look pretty intent on killing Trunks when he pinned him down.........HeroR wrote:But that was also made with the power of everyone on the planet, including Goku and Vegeta, and it didn't break on the first swing. That sword lasted several swipes and Trunks needed to focused to break it. Black's sword, it looks like he turned it off himself, because he was all smiles when Goku powered up. Merged Zamasu had the chance to kill the heroes several dozen times, but he never shut up. He was like Future Zamasu on steroids.
While talking instead of killing. Merged Zamasu is a failure of a villain who talked himself to his defeat. He lost all the pragmatic qualities of Black and even Future Zamasu since eve nye knew when to be quiet.Freeza9000 wrote:Merged Zamasu did look pretty intent on killing Trunks when he pinned him down.........HeroR wrote:But that was also made with the power of everyone on the planet, including Goku and Vegeta, and it didn't break on the first swing. That sword lasted several swipes and Trunks needed to focused to break it. Black's sword, it looks like he turned it off himself, because he was all smiles when Goku powered up. Merged Zamasu had the chance to kill the heroes several dozen times, but he never shut up. He was like Future Zamasu on steroids.
Kanassa wrote:Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Even the manga requires us to do these fan theories? So lame.dbgtFO wrote:Some guy on the manga thread just mentioned Vegeta's strong Super Saiyan 2 might be because he lacks Super Saiyan God, so until it's clarified in the translated text, I am going with:
Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan God Goku
Super Saiyan 2(Mutated) Vegeta
Super Saiyan Black
Base Black
Super Saiyan 2(Mutated) Trunks/Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Base Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
A bit complicated sure, but ever since Rageta, it has looked possible a complicated setup like this might come along one day.
Ah i had forgotten i dont consider ssj1-3 above ssg. Tho it is odd why i dont do that, since from BOG arc ssj1 is basically ssg level. Hmm.ZombieVito wrote:SSJ2 Goku is not god level.
Goku's Kamehameha was amplified way more than Vegeta's and Trunks Galick Gun and Piccolo managed to fight Frost like that because he trained with Gohan.
I really don't see a single thing wrong with the power scaling in the anime.
My point is that didn't make sense even before this, if Goku was fighting almost evenly with Hit who's above 10% of SSBlue in SSJ, he should be nearly as strong as an SSBlue as an SSJ3 as SSJ3 is 8x SSJ, therefore SSJ3 = over 80% of SSBlue.ZombieVito wrote:Nope. It's way bigger than that.TheUltimateNinja wrote:SSBlue is stronger than SSG which is in turn stronger than SSJ3 which is 8x stronger than SSJ, so at minimum SSBlue is at least 20x stronger than SSJ in the manga so that's still a pretty huge gap for Goku to overcome against Hit regardless of this new revelation.ZombieVito wrote:
It fucks up the power scale hard. Now the gap between SSJ and Blue is enormous in the manga.
Now Hit vs SSJ Goku is impossible. There's no way SSJ Goku could fight Hit like that when the latter is hundreds of times stronger.
Toei did the right thing in just having Rose.
Base Black even in the manga is on par with SSJ3 Goku and then he has all of the SSJ transformations so the gap between SSJ3 Goku and SSB is way over 400 times but then Hit fighting just SSJ Goku is stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.
Doesn't make sense at all. The power scale in the manga is fucked now.
Seems about right, tho Future Zamasu is proly stronger than Present Zamasu simply because Goku said, when he clashed with Zamasu that it is different from the last time they fought. Plus F. Zamasu was able to overpower ssj blue Goku on some occasions, something which someone on ssj2 Goku's level wouldnt be able to do. Plus Trunks got a rage boost in ep 57, so that is why he was able to stab Zamasu. Plus Zamasu is very carefree and always lets his guard down, since he is immortal.Draconic wrote:I think I've proposed my power level theory a dozen times before and I would really like if someone could actually deconstruct them, because they never seemed to reply.
I will try to keep this short.
In BoG Goku was as a little weaker than Super Saiyan God in his regular Super Saiyan form, meaning that his base is weaker than God by whatever multiplier you want Super Saiyan to be. The line from the movie of God being a level of power Goku could never reach on his own is cut out, so from there we should be prepared for the level to eventually prove to no longer be that special. The gap between God and Super Saiyan is made up by the Super Saiyan 2 multiplier.
In RoF Gohan and Piccolo are pretty much the same as they were at their Cell Games selves. First Form Freeza is stronger than that. Base Goku and Vegeta are also stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, as seen in the Copy-Vegeta arc. I have them somewhere around Ultimate Gohan/Buutenks level.
In the U6 arc Piccolo is fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan, so he has also is in the same ballpark as the base Saiyans. Frost is getting his ass kicked by Super Saiyan Goku so neither Piccolo nor Frost are as strong as God level. Magetta is giving Super Saiyan Vegeta a run for his money due to special conditions, like overwhelming heat and lack of air in the barrier where they fight. Cabbe is nowhere close to Vegeta, as Vegeta is taking everything the guy throws at him, so there's no reason to have him at God level either. Hit is above Super Saiyan Blue, so he's the only one who reached that level.
In the Trunks arc base Black is stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Zamasu is in the same ballpark as Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Zamasu keeps his power in Goku's body, putting Black at about the same level of Super Saiyan 2 Goku, as show in their fight. Black and Trunks fought for a year, so Black got stronger, while Trunks reached his level eventually. Trunks is on the verge of God KI sensing, but isn't quite there.
Future Zamasu is as strong as Present Zamasu as shown by the fact that Trunks kicked his ass in their first fight and only survived due to being immortal.
Black got a power boost from fighting Goku and because the gap between SSJ3 (which Trunks says Black is at full power) and SSB post BoG is not that huge, with that he was able to tank hits from Blue Vegeta. Then he turns Rose and gets stronger than Blue. Zamasu never improves.
The characters get stronger but it's not really relevant except to one up each other. Trunks unlocks his Rage form and reaches the level he can sense God Ki.
Merged Zamasu is stronger than all three Saiyans. Goku manages to fight of his blast because he puts everything he has in the Kamehameha, breaking his hands, while Vegeta and Trunks managed to do it while still keeping themselves in fighting shape. Vegeta gets incapacitated AFTER the beam struggle.
Vegetto Blue is stronger than Full Power Merged Zamasu and weakens him enough for Trunks to be able to take him using the Genki Sword. While Vegeta and Goku were beaten, their Genki should still be stronger than everybody elses as seen in the Buu arc, where the Z-Fighters already gave enough Genki to create half a ball. Trunks was at full power, had Genki from two God level characters and the rest of the planet, which was enough to kill a weak Merged Zamasu who took a Final Kamehameha to his face.
Kaio pretty much confirmed Goku is not god level in his Super Saiyan forms in episode 24.buutenks wrote:Ah i had forgotten i dont consider ssj1-3 above ssg. Tho it is odd why i dont do that, since from BOG arc ssj1 is basically ssg level. Hmm.ZombieVito wrote:SSJ2 Goku is not god level.
Goku's Kamehameha was amplified way more than Vegeta's and Trunks Galick Gun and Piccolo managed to fight Frost like that because he trained with Gohan.
I really don't see a single thing wrong with the power scaling in the anime.
Hmm, King kai said that Goku became a super saiyan god without the help of the saiyans. The narrator said goku got a form stronger than super saiyan god. Tho that was before the introduction of ssj1-3 post god absorbtion. THo i guess u could argue the forms are very powerful but not ssg god level since no one mentions anything about them.ZombieVito wrote:Kaio pretty much confirmed Goku is not god level in his Super Saiyan forms in episode 24.buutenks wrote:Ah i had forgotten i dont consider ssj1-3 above ssg. Tho it is odd why i dont do that, since from BOG arc ssj1 is basically ssg level. Hmm.ZombieVito wrote:SSJ2 Goku is not god level.
Goku's Kamehameha was amplified way more than Vegeta's and Trunks Galick Gun and Piccolo managed to fight Frost like that because he trained with Gohan.
I really don't see a single thing wrong with the power scaling in the anime.
