The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[dragon boss z]

But who's to say that Sick Goku is not much stronger than the Spirit Bomb? Or what's more, the Spirit Bomb can easily be weaker than SSJ Namek Goku or 100% Frieza. There's more proof to say that Sick Goku is much stronger than his Namek saga counterpart.

Sick Goku got so sick he couldn't move anymore. That means at some point in the fight he was dropping lower than he was on Namek. He didn't just go from 100 to 0, he was deteriorating over time.

Again, if he sensed Trunks' power as SSJ 3 years earlier, we don't know if he said as a team either, he wouldn't try to come to battle, we know how Piccolo is, he's always there when he knows if he's capable.

Piccolo even said he didn't know if the androids were weaker than they thought or if they just got too strong. That line means Piccolo doesn't know for sure how strong he is comparatively.

He did say his power was somewhat like a SSJ, he said that in the manga, and 50% Frieza is nowhere close anyone of them.

This is what he said.


And the same could be said for 50% Frieza. There is nobody in 50% Frieza's league besides a ssj. 70% Frieza even knocked ssj Goku back hard.






19 couldn't even land one hit on a sick ssj Goku before he absorbed Goku's kamehameha.

It was never stated that it has to be that way. Look at how well they incremented their powers on the ROSAT training only on 1 year. Vegeta, who trained with much heavier gravity in 3 years, was equal to Goku after the 3 years. If you train hard, you get much stronger, that's how it always is, specially during those 3 years.

Ya but Goku didn't do any gravity training or ROSAT training in those 3 years. All he did was train with weaker people.

Roshi was not going easy with Goku. He was trying to use all the techniques he could, but without using his buff form, which is much stronger than that

You could say the same thing for Beerus in BoG. It looked like he was going all out, and in Super he even said he was using 100%, but we now know he wasn't.

Grandpa Gohan is NOT weaker than 21st Roshi. Goku was on par with Roshi (with no buff form), and got defeated easily by Tao Pai Pai, then Goku got much stronger than Tao Pai Pai after Korin's training, but was equal with Grandpa Gohan.

Roshi wasn't trying to kill Goku, Tao was. Roshi actually knocked Goku out of the ring in the first couple seconds of the fight and Goku only made it back because he used his tail like a helicopter.
Then the rest of the fight was pretty much Roshi trying a new technique, getting the better of Goku, but then Goku copying the technique and using it on Roshi. Roshi also would of won again if Bulma didn't wake Goku up by mentioning food, and then again if Goku didn't transform into an Ape. And after busting the moon Roshi couldn't use the kamehameha anymore because he was tired but Goku had enough energy to still use a kamehameha, but Roshi still won.

Also 21st Roshi was pretty much confirmed to be above grandpa Gohan when he said even Gohan didn't last that long in his attack (meaning Roshi won).

Let's not include Buff Roshi on this right? We're talking about normal Roshi. It was never stated that in the 22nd Budokai Roshi was buff against Tien, he was just serious.
Also, Crane Hermit should be stronger than Roshi without being serious, serious Roshi is stronger, judging by Tien's comments. There's also Chiaotzu, Yamcha and Krillin (the later 2 who manage to fight well against Tien and Goku, but ended up losing obviously).

I never said Roshi was buff against Tien. And no, Tien confirmed Roshi was stronger than Crane before Roshi got serious, and Crane was confirmed with a power level of 120 (daizenshuu), while Roshi has 139 while resting (confirmed by manga)

21st Yamcha << 21st Krillin << 21st Goku = 21st Roshi <<< Tao Pai Pai << Post Korin Goku = Grandpa Gohan < 22nd Chiaotzu <= 22nd Yamcha <= 22nd Krillin < 22nd Roshi < Crane Hermit < 22nd Serious Roshi < 22nd Goku = 22nd Tien

21st Yamcha<<21st Krillin<22nd Chiaotzu<21st Goku<22nd Yamcha<=22nd Krillin<Tao<Crane<=Gohan<=21st Roshi<22nd Roshi<serious Roshi<=22nd Goku=22nd Tien

You can easily see how much big of a gap was between Yamcha and Roshi in the 21st, and in the 22nd it got much shorter.

22nd Yamcha and Krillin didn't surpassed Tao. You can tell Tien didn't think anyone from the turtle hermit school could beat Tao until he fought Goku.
Krillin did better against Goku than Tao did, but that's because a tournament you aren't supposed to kill. Goku even mentioned how his full power in a tournament is different than his full power in a real fight, though that may of been a dub line. Same goes with the Roshi and Goku fight. Roshi wasn't there to kill his student.

[dragonball0900]

Sick Goku got so sick he couldn't move anymore. That means at some point in the fight he was dropping lower than he was on Namek. He didn't just go from 100 to 0, he was deteriorating over time.

Sick Goku was able to move before the kamehameha throwing. Piccolo noticed Goku's power wasn't that strong because of the virus. After he landed the kamehameha, A19 got the upper hand and that's were Goku began to feel even worse.
The Sick Goku after the kamehameha is the one who can be near 50% Frieza.

Piccolo even said he didn't know if the androids were weaker than they thought or if they just got too strong. That line means Piccolo doesn't know for sure how strong he is comparatively.

He didn't know how to compare himself to the androids, but he did know for sure Trunks' power. If Piccolo hadn't surpass SSJ Trunks then Piccolo wouldn't have his doubts weather the Androids were weak or if they were strong, since he knew Trunks was worthless against the androids he fought.

This is what he said.

If Piccolo was around 50% Frieza, Krillin wouldn't say that "he isn't even a SSJ" he would say just a saiyan. Super Saiyans are different, they are much more powerful due to the increasing transformation they had.

19 couldn't even land one hit on a sick ssj Goku before he absorbed Goku's kamehameha.

That's up to Goku's style of fighting, which is confirmed to be better. 19 was durable, but wasn't as fast as Goku. If 19 was well below Goku, he wouldn't land a single hit.

Ya but Goku didn't do any gravity training or ROSAT training in those 3 years. All he did was train with weaker people.

But Vegeta did, and Goku managed to be at the same level as Vegeta 3 years later.

You could say the same thing for Beerus in BoG. It looked like he was going all out, and in Super he even said he was using 100%, but we now know he wasn't.

That was different. Beerus was obviously not going all out, it was outright stated. Roshi, however, said that he was indeed going all out against Goku.

Roshi wasn't trying to kill Goku, Tao was. Roshi actually knocked Goku out of the ring in the first couple seconds of the fight and Goku only made it back because he used his tail like a helicopter.
Then the rest of the fight was pretty much Roshi trying a new technique, getting the better of Goku, but then Goku copying the technique and using it on Roshi. Roshi also would of won again if Bulma didn't wake Goku up by mentioning food, and then again if Goku didn't transform into an Ape. And after busting the moon Roshi couldn't use the kamehameha anymore because he was tired but Goku had enough energy to still use a kamehameha, but Roshi still won.

Also 21st Roshi was pretty much confirmed to be above grandpa Gohan when he said even Gohan didn't last that long in his attack (meaning Roshi won).

Sure, Goku has his tail, and yeah, Roshi might be slightly stronger than Goku. But that doesn't mean that he has to be stronger than Grandpa Gohan.
Let's see... if Grandpa Gohan was weaker than Roshi, then how was he able to see post Korin Goku's movements and Roshi didn't? Grandpa Gohan is just stronger than Roshi at that point in the series.

I never said Roshi was buff against Tien. And no, Tien confirmed Roshi was stronger than Crane before Roshi got serious, and Crane was confirmed with a power level of 120 (daizenshuu), while Roshi has 139 while resting (confirmed by manga)

That's not true. Tien said it after Roshi was serious, it was seen in the manga.

22nd Yamcha and Krillin didn't surpassed Tao. You can tell Tien didn't think anyone from the turtle hermit school could beat Tao until he fought Goku.
Krillin did better against Goku than Tao did, but that's because a tournament you aren't supposed to kill. Goku even mentioned how his full power in a tournament is different than his full power in a real fight, though that may of been a dub line. Same goes with the Roshi and Goku fight. Roshi wasn't there to kill his student.

Here are my reasons why Krillin and Yamcha are much stronger than Tao in the 22nd Budokai:

- Krillin and Yamcha were confident on winning the tournament, despite the fact that they saw Goku's strenght 3 years earlier.

- Master Roshi was worried that Goku couldn't beat King Chappa, despite the fact that he saw Goku's strenght 3 years earlier. Yamcha and Krillin are obviously stronger than Chappa.
That indicates Tao < Post Korin Goku < King Chappa < 22nd Yamcha <= 22nd Krillin

[dragon boss z]

Sick Goku was able to move before the kamehameha throwing. Piccolo noticed Goku's power wasn't that strong because of the virus. After he landed the kamehameha, A19 got the upper hand and that's were Goku began to feel even worse.
The Sick Goku after the kamehameha is the one who can be near 50% Frieza.

I know. Goku got weaker as 19 got stronger and it tipped the fight. It's really impossible to compare them exactly with Frieza though. There isn't enough information. All we know is Goku was a lot weaker than normal and he was still winning before 19 absorbed his energy.

He didn't know how to compare himself to the androids, but he did know for sure Trunks' power. If Piccolo hadn't surpass SSJ Trunks then Piccolo wouldn't have his doubts weather the Androids were weak or if they were strong, since he knew Trunks was worthless against the androids he fought.

Not necessarily. Also Trunks had to fight two androids at once. He was outnumbered. This time the z fighters outnumbered the androids.

If Piccolo was around 50% Frieza, Krillin wouldn't say that "he isn't even a SSJ" he would say just a saiyan. Super Saiyans are different, they are much more powerful due to the increasing transformation they had.

Um no. The base saiyans would get squashed by 50% Frieza. Even with kaioken x10 Goku couldn't land a hit, and with x20 he did virtually no damage.
Also I said I thought Piccolo was more around 70% Frieza.

base saiyans<<<19<20<=>50% Frieza<Piccolo<<100% Frieza<ssj Goku

That's up to Goku's style of fighting, which is confirmed to be better. 19 was durable, but wasn't as fast as Goku. If 19 was well below Goku, he wouldn't land a single hit.

Like I said 19 didn't land a single hit until after absorbing energy. And Goku is a better fighter than Frieza too. Frieza never trained.

But Vegeta did, and Goku managed to be at the same level as Vegeta 3 years later.

That's why Vegeta caught up. You realize before the 3 years of training even base Goku was out of Vegeta's league right?

That was different. Beerus was obviously not going all out, it was outright stated. Roshi, however, said that he was indeed going all out against Goku.

I feel like you aren't reading what I'm writing. Beerus said he was using 100% against SSG Goku.
Also show me the scan where Roshi says he is going all out.

Sure, Goku has his tail, and yeah, Roshi might be slightly stronger than Goku. But that doesn't mean that he has to be stronger than Grandpa Gohan.
Let's see... if Grandpa Gohan was weaker than Roshi, then how was he able to see post Korin Goku's movements and Roshi didn't? Grandpa Gohan is just stronger than Roshi at that point in the series.

Roshi said he couldn't see Goku move but maybe he just wasn't ready for him to be that fast. Roshi also went through Korins training and he kept up fine with Tien who was out of grandpa Gohan's league. Roshi even stated he beat Gohan before.

That's not true. Tien said it after Roshi was serious, it was seen in the manga.

True, but he was probably still slightly stronger or at least about the same before getting serious. He even blew Crane away later on.
I could maybe agree that regular 21st Roshi was weaker than Tao, but if Roshi got serioius like he did against Tien he probably would of surpassed Tao in power.

Here are my reasons why Krillin and Yamcha are much stronger than Tao in the 22nd Budokai:

- Krillin and Yamcha were confident on winning the tournament, despite the fact that they saw Goku's strenght 3 years earlier.

- Master Roshi was worried that Goku couldn't beat King Chappa, despite the fact that he saw Goku's strenght 3 years earlier. Yamcha and Krillin are obviously stronger than Chappa.
That indicates Tao < Post Korin Goku < King Chappa < 22nd Yamcha <= 22nd Krillin

Of course they would be confident in winning. That's always how you should enter a fight. If you think you lost before you start, you really already lost. Also when Krillin was up against Goku he was nervous because he knew deep down he couldn't win.

And King Chappa is nowhere near Tao. Tao could kill people with his tounge, his finger, and could throw a pillar 2,300 km. Roshi was just nervous about King Chappa because of his reputation. King Chappa was like Mr. Satan tier.

[Steven Bloodriver]

1) Zamasu55 vs. Black Smoke Shenron.

[dragonball0900]

Not necessarily. Also Trunks had to fight two androids at once. He was outnumbered. This time the z fighters outnumbered the androids.

Piccolo was relying on his own strenght. He did say that anyone who felt like it's no use to go to the battle then can stay out.

Um no. The base saiyans would get squashed by 50% Frieza. Even with kaioken x10 Goku couldn't land a hit, and with x20 he did virtually no damage.
Also I said I thought Piccolo was more around 70% Frieza.

base saiyans<<<19<20<=>50% Frieza<Piccolo<<100% Frieza<ssj Goku

Yeah, I guess you're right here. But if a base saiyan is much weaker than 50% Frieza, then 50% Frieza is also much weaker than the SSJ's.

Like I said 19 didn't land a single hit until after absorbing energy. And Goku is a better fighter than Frieza too. Frieza never trained.

Yeah, but still, Goku showed more resistance despite being sick and also because of his 3 year training.

That's why Vegeta caught up. You realize before the 3 years of training even base Goku was out of Vegeta's league right?

Yeah he was, but the difference was not that big. If Goku was 3 million, then Vegeta was a 2.4 million at best, for him to be stronger than 3rd Frieza, but obviously weaker than Base Goku.

I feel like you aren't reading what I'm writing. Beerus said he was using 100% against SSG Goku.
Also show me the scan where Roshi says he is going all out.

But he did ended up saying he wasn't going all out at all. Maybe Beerus was just lying to him.


Here you can see Roshi after seeing Goku's strenght against Nam. Roshi was nervous on losing against Goku.


Here they are making kamehamehas between them


And look how they ended.


And here's Roshi worried if he was losing to Goku, and that he shouldn't underestimate him.

There are many scans that I don't have time to show, but through the battle, Roshi was trying his best effort to win. He was worried to lose against Goku, the whole point of dressing into Jackie Chun was for that. If Roshi was holding back, then the battle would certainly finish faster. Just becasue Beerus said he was 100% when he wasn't actually, doesn't mean that's the same here. It's not a fair comparation.

Roshi said he couldn't see Goku move but maybe he just wasn't ready for him to be that fast. Roshi also went through Korins training and he kept up fine with Tien who was out of grandpa Gohan's league. Roshi even stated he beat Gohan before.

If you seen the series and manga, you probably remember that Roshi didn't train and became older by the pass of time. Roshi was at his prime after Korin's training, but his power declined. Later in the 22nd Budokai, Roshi said he trained in secret during the 3 years.

True, but he was probably still slightly stronger or at least about the same before getting serious. He even blew Crane away later on.
I could maybe agree that regular 21st Roshi was weaker than Tao, but if Roshi got serioius like he did against Tien he probably would of surpassed Tao in power.

Yeah, I agree that the Crane Hermit was on the same strenght as Roshi (no serious).
I can't agree on your second point due to the reasons I stated above. Roshi was already serious against Goku. If Roshi was to fight Tao, he would certainly lose if he doesn't use his buff form.

Of course they would be confident in winning. That's always how you should enter a fight. If you think you lost before you start, you really already lost. Also when Krillin was up against Goku he was nervous because he knew deep down he couldn't win.

And King Chappa is nowhere near Tao. Tao could kill people with his tounge, his finger, and could throw a pillar 2,300 km. Roshi was just nervous about King Chappa because of his reputation. King Chappa was like Mr. Satan tier.

Krillin and Yamcha already saw Goku's power previously, that's why. They are witness of their friend being already stronger, obviously they would have thought they would win after 3 years of training with Roshi.
Krillin was only nervous after seeing Goku defeating Chappa. Before that, he didn't mind.
King Chappa was said to win previous tournaments without being touched. That's a big feat that can really place him above Tao.
Also King Chappa is NOT Mr Satan tier, Mr Satan can't resist a bullet, while Kid Goku from the beggining of Dragon Ball could, and I don't think a strong fighter wouldn't touch Mr Satan on a fight based on what we saw in the series.

[Anime Kitten]

Beerus said he was using 100% against SSG Goku.

It was directly stated at the end of Episode 14 that Beerus lied. So no, he wasn't actually using 100%, at least as far as we know.

[dragon boss z]

Beerus said he was using 100% against SSG Goku.

It was directly stated at the end of Episode 14 that Beerus lied. So no, he wasn't actually using 100%, at least as far as we know.

I know that's what I'm saying... Both Beerus and Roshi were holding back when they first fought Goku.

[dragonball0900]

Beerus said he was using 100% against SSG Goku.

It was directly stated at the end of Episode 14 that Beerus lied. So no, he wasn't actually using 100%, at least as far as we know.

I know that's what I'm saying... Both Beerus and Roshi were holding back when they first fought Goku.

Yeah, Beerus was, but not Roshi. Roshi in his normal state was going all out.

[dragon boss z]

It was directly stated at the end of Episode 14 that Beerus lied. So no, he wasn't actually using 100%, at least as far as we know.

I know that's what I'm saying... Both Beerus and Roshi were holding back when they first fought Goku.

Yeah, Beerus was, but not Roshi. Roshi in his normal state was going all out.

Roshi wasn't even pushed that hard. He was about to beat Goku but then Goku transformed, and after he would of beat Goku, he still had enough energy to moon bust, and even after moon busting he won.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Beerus, Champa, Whis, Vados, SSJB Vegito (no time limit), Merged Zamasu, Golden Freeza (no stamina limit), God Future Trunks, and Hit vs. Daishinkan

[dragonball0900]

I know that's what I'm saying... Both Beerus and Roshi were holding back when they first fought Goku.

Yeah, Beerus was, but not Roshi. Roshi in his normal state was going all out.

Roshi wasn't even pushed that hard. He was about to beat Goku but then Goku transformed, and after he would of beat Goku, he still had enough energy to moon bust, and even after moon busting he won.

He was pushed harder than he thought. The reason why he was about to beat Goku is because of the Thunder Shock Surprise technique, before that both he and Goku were heavily equals.

[dragon boss z]

He was pushed harder than he thought. The reason why he was about to beat Goku is because of the Thunder Shock Surprise technique, before that both he and Goku were heavily equals.

Yes he was definitely pushed harder than he thought. Though I still think if Roshi was bloodlusted he would of killed Goku easily.

[dragonball0900]

He was pushed harder than he thought. The reason why he was about to beat Goku is because of the Thunder Shock Surprise technique, before that both he and Goku were heavily equals.

Yes he was definitely pushed harder than he thought. Though I still think if Roshi was bloodlusted he would of killed Goku easily.

I respect your opinion, it's just that if that was the case then Roshi would have ended the battle sooner, and he wouldn't have to use the thunder technique on him. Also, Goku was lacking energy too after the whole oozaru scene, not just Roshi.

[dragon boss z]

Piccolo was relying on his own strenght. He did say that anyone who felt like it's no use to go to the battle then can stay out.

Ya because he didn't want the weak people to get killed. The humans weren't even as strong as Frieza's first form, lol.

Yeah, I guess you're right here. But if a base saiyan is much weaker than 50% Frieza, then 50% Frieza is also much weaker than the SSJ's.

50% Frieza was 20x stronger than base Goku, but only 2.5x weaker than ssj Goku.

Yeah, but still, Goku showed more resistance despite being sick and also because of his 3 year training.

What do you mean he showed more resistance?

Yeah he was, but the difference was not that big. If Goku was 3 million, then Vegeta was a 2.4 million at best, for him to be stronger than 3rd Frieza, but obviously weaker than Base Goku.

It was never stated Vegeta was stronger than 3rd form Frieza. He was just stronger than Piccolo who was equal with second form Frieza.

But he did ended up saying he wasn't going all out at all. Maybe Beerus was just lying to him.

Yes, Beerus was lying, but Roshi might of been lying too.

Here you can see Roshi after seeing Goku's strenght against Nam. Roshi was nervous on losing against Goku.
Here they are making kamehamehas between them
And look how they ended.
And here's Roshi worried if he was losing to Goku, and that he shouldn't underestimate him.

Well it's very easy to lose in a tournament. Roshi almost lost to Krillin. However if it was a death match Roshi wouldn't of had a problem, just like Tao. Roshi was Tao tier. Stronger than pre Korin goku, but weaker than post Korin Goku. Than Roshi trained to be about equal with post Korin Goku.

There are many scans that I don't have time to show, but through the battle, Roshi was trying his best effort to win. He was worried to lose against Goku, the whole point of dressing into Jackie Chun was for that. If Roshi was holding back, then the battle would certainly finish faster. Just becasue Beerus said he was 100% when he wasn't actually, doesn't mean that's the same here. It's not a fair comparation.

Roshi dressed up as Jackie Chun so Goku and Krillin would think there are others stronger than them. I know Beerus holding back doesn't mean Roshi was, I was just showing how it's possible. I think this is something that can be interpreted in different ways. I just don't think plot wise Toriyama would have Roshi weaker than Tao.

If you seen the series and manga, you probably remember that Roshi didn't train and became older by the pass of time. Roshi was at his prime after Korin's training, but his power declined. Later in the 22nd Budokai, Roshi said he trained in secret during the 3 years.

I know Roshi trained. He went from Tao/Crane/Gohan tier to Goku/Tien tier.
Also I don't remember Roshi saying he got weaker from his Korin tower training.

Yeah, I agree that the Crane Hermit was on the same strenght as Roshi (no serious).
I can't agree on your second point due to the reasons I stated above. Roshi was already serious against Goku. If Roshi was to fight Tao, he would certainly lose if he doesn't use his buff form.

Maybe. Even if Tao was stronger, I don't see how he gets past Roshi's lightning surprise.

Krillin and Yamcha already saw Goku's power previously, that's why. They are witness of their friend being already stronger, obviously they would have thought they would win after 3 years of training with Roshi.
Krillin was only nervous after seeing Goku defeating Chappa. Before that, he didn't mind.
King Chappa was said to win previous tournaments without being touched. That's a big feat that can really place him above Tao.
Also King Chappa is NOT Mr Satan tier, Mr Satan can't resist a bullet, while Kid Goku from the beggining of Dragon Ball could, and I don't think a strong fighter wouldn't touch Mr Satan on a fight based on what we saw in the series.

Maybe they were around the same strength as 21st budokai Goku. If they were stronger it was only slighty, and they would still be weaker than Tao considering how Tien acted.

And Chappa winning the previous tournament without being touched is not a feat that puts him above Tao. you think 21st Roshi was below Tao and if it wasn't for Goku and Krillin he would of won without being touched. He beat Yamcha just by the wind from his hand.
Also Chappa never proved to be bullet proof.
Mr. Satan can't be that weak or he wouldn't of won the tenkaichi budokai. Maybe he isn't as strong as King Chappa, but he has to be relatively close. It's not like those same type of people wouldn't try and go to the tournament. Mr. Satan was just strong enough to beat all the contestants besides people from the turtle and crane school.

[dragon boss z]

He was pushed harder than he thought. The reason why he was about to beat Goku is because of the Thunder Shock Surprise technique, before that both he and Goku were heavily equals.

Yes he was definitely pushed harder than he thought. Though I still think if Roshi was bloodlusted he would of killed Goku easily.

I respect your opinion, it's just that if that was the case then Roshi would have ended the battle sooner, and he wouldn't have to use the thunder technique on him. Also, Goku was lacking energy too after the whole oozaru scene, not just Roshi.

Goku still had enough energy to fire a kamehameha, Roshi didn't.

[dragon boss z]

Beerus, Champa, Whis, Vados, SSJB Vegito (no time limit), Merged Zamasu, Golden Freeza (no stamina limit), God Future Trunks, and Hit vs. Daishinkan

This is impossible to say at this point.

[dragonball0900]

Ya because he didn't want the weak people to get killed. The humans weren't even as strong as Frieza's first form, lol.

But still, he did sense Trunks' power earlier. I guess in the end it's just anyone's opinion.

50% Frieza was 20x stronger than base Goku, but only 2.5x weaker than ssj Goku.

Yeah, but Krillin never sensed SSJ Goku on Namek, he sensed ever since Trunks' SSJ power up to Goku and Vegeta's Android arc power, which is much stronger. Piccolo's power shouldn't be a lot weaker than SSJ Namek Goku if he was mentioned to be comparable with the SSJ, Krillin said that he isn't even a SSJ, but making Piccolo that weak wouldn't make sense.

What do you mean he showed more resistance?

That despite being sick, he still managed to fight A19.

It was never stated Vegeta was stronger than 3rd form Frieza. He was just stronger than Piccolo who was equal with second form Frieza.

If Vegeta was able to see Final Form Frieza's movements, while Piccolo, who was stronger than 2nd Form Frieza, couldn't even see 3rd Form Frieza, possibilities are high that Vegeta was stronger than 3rd Form Frieza.

Yes, Beerus was lying, but Roshi might of been lying too.

No, because Roshi never said he was holding back at all. If there was no evidence then how can we assume that he was holding back?

Well it's very easy to lose in a tournament. Roshi almost lost to Krillin. However if it was a death match Roshi wouldn't of had a problem, just like Tao. Roshi was Tao tier. Stronger than pre Korin goku, but weaker than post Korin Goku. Than Roshi trained to be about equal with post Korin Goku.

Again, Roshi was not Tao tier, he was much below, fighting equally with Goku, if not a bit stronger, when he trained under Korin that was years ago at his prime, his strenght could've got weaker over time.

Roshi dressed up as Jackie Chun so Goku and Krillin would think there are others stronger than them. I know Beerus holding back doesn't mean Roshi was, I was just showing how it's possible. I think this is something that can be interpreted in different ways. I just don't think plot wise Toriyama would have Roshi weaker than Tao.

Yeah, but as I said, Beerus did say he was holding back, while Roshi didn't. There's more proof for him to be near equal to Goku than being holding back and strong as Tao.

I know Roshi trained. He went from Tao/Crane/Gohan tier to Goku/Tien tier.
Also I don't remember Roshi saying he got weaker from his Korin tower training.

It's easily to see why he got weaker, as I said, Roshi was equal to Goku, he was not even able to see Goku's movements against Uranai Baba's fighters!

Goku 21st <= Roshi 21st << Tao < Goku Post Korin << Roshi 22nd is clearly stated in the manga.

Maybe. Even if Tao was stronger, I don't see how he gets past Roshi's lightning surprise.

Tao would still probably win the match since he was a good deal stronger than Goku.

Maybe they were around the same strength as 21st budokai Goku. If they were stronger it was only slighty, and they would still be weaker than Tao considering how Tien acted.

And Chappa winning the previous tournament without being touched is not a feat that puts him above Tao. you think 21st Roshi was below Tao and if it wasn't for Goku and Krillin he would of won without being touched. He beat Yamcha just by the wind from his hand.
Also Chappa never proved to be bullet proof.
Mr. Satan can't be that weak or he wouldn't of won the tenkaichi budokai. Maybe he isn't as strong as King Chappa, but he has to be relatively close. It's not like those same type of people wouldn't try and go to the tournament. Mr. Satan was just strong enough to beat all the contestants besides people from the turtle and crane school

Tien knows more the Crane Hermit's strenght than Tao's since he died 3 years earlier, Tien wouldn't know how comparable Tao is to Yamcha or Krillin.
Also Yamcha trained with Roshi like 3 years, that's more than what Goku did which was 1 year.
Yeah, you're right that it's not a feat that puts him above Tao, but still Mr Roshi saw Goku's strenght at Baba's place, but 3 years later he had doubts if Goku was going to win the match against Chappa.
Also, Mr Satan has to be weaker than beggining of Dragon Ball Goku since he doesn't resist bullets. The 24th Budokai could've been a Budokai without that much stronger fighters, remember that it was said that the level of participants of the tournament had declined after the 23rd Budokai.

[Angelus]

Androids Saga: Krillin VS Tien

[Specifics, Tien is hovering above Krillin, firing a Tribeam at full power. Krillin, below him stands on grounds that has molten magma/lava lake, a few meters directly underneath it. Krillin throws a full power Kienzan at Tien's direction. It becomes a "beam struggle" between Krillin's Kienzan and Tien's Tribeam. Who will die first? Will the Kienzan cut Tien in half or would the Tribeam ram Krillin into the ground and sink into the magma/lava lake]

[Noah]

New matches ("almost" equal power matches):

Could the fighters overcome the power differences in one-on-one fights?

- Hit vs. Saibamen (90% stronger than his opponent)
- Perfect Cell vs. Final Form Freeza (55% stronger)
- Piccolo vs. Kid SSJ2 Gohan (30% stronger)
- SSJ Future Trunks vs. Nappa (15% stronger)
- Super Boo-han vs. Krillin (60% stronger)
- Tenshinhan (25% stronger) vs. Beerus
- Yamcha (10% stronger) vs. LSSJ Broly

Lol, 90% stronger isn't almost equal, that's a huge gap. Anyway,

- Saibamen take this, Hit's timeskip doesn't work on people who are massively more powerful than him.

Really? Even with the feats presented in the latest episode? Hit could use other techniques

[TheUltimateNinja]

Really? Even with the feats presented in the latest episode? Hit could use other techniques

Without the timeskip Hit is at a disadvantage against opponents nearly twice as strong as him. Plus, Saibamen is plural so he'll have to deal with more than one.

Anyway, here's one: Hit (Fully improved & has assassination techniques) without his timeskip vs SSRose Black (Scythe)