Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Ah i had forgotten i dont consider ssj1-3 above ssg. Tho it is odd why i dont do that, since from BOG arc ssj1 is basically ssg level. Hmm.

Kaio pretty much confirmed Goku is not god level in his Super Saiyan forms in episode 24.

Hmm, King kai said that Goku became a super saiyan god without the help of the saiyans. The narrator said goku got a form stronger than super saiyan god. Tho that was before the introduction of ssj1-3 post god absorbtion. THo i guess u could argue the forms are very powerful but not ssg god level since no one mentions anything about them.

Pretty much yeah. Once Kaio saw SSB he said Goku reached god level on his own. If SSJ Goku was already god level then the former wouldn't make sense at all.

[HeroR]

Hmm, King kai said that Goku became a super saiyan god without the help of the saiyans. The narrator said goku got a form stronger than super saiyan god. Tho that was before the introduction of ssj1-3 post god absorbtion. THo i guess u could argue the forms are very powerful but not ssg god level since no one mentions anything about them.

That isn't true. When Goku lost his God form, Beerus notes that Goku's power didn't drop despite just being a Super Saiyan.

[Marlowe89]

I don't think any kind of dialouge will be able to explain the bullshit we just saw.

I think at least some kind of acknowledgement might help somewhat. Trunks looked oddly nervous when Vegeta was giving Black a tough time, so even something like "This doesn't feel right, Black seemed stronger than this" could provide some kind of context to an otherwise baffling inconsistency. Alternatively, as I noted before, perhaps this is a situation similar to Golden Frieza where Black isn't used to Super Saiyan transformations so his power decreased as a result. To me it's especially jarring even if we completely ignore earlier chapters because base Black goes from being able to handle Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta decently well to suddenly being at some kind of disadvantage only seconds after transforming.

I'm not excusing anything of course, just saying we should probably wait for a complete translation before fully judging the situation.

[Bullza]

You'd think if Black was weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta who himself is within that Buu level realm of strenght that just one punch from SSJB Vegeta would defeat him outright just as he did with Cabba but he pummels him around and he's still conscious from it all.

[ZombieVito]

You'd think if Black was weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta who himself is within that Buu level realm of strenght that just one punch from SSJB Vegeta would defeat him outright just as he did with Cabba but he pummels him around and he's still conscious from it all.

Goku was still conscious when taking hits from 50% Freeza though. Even still SSJ2 Vegeta beating SSJ Black is laughably bad.

I find it so fucking hilarious that the manga power scale is completely fucked now while the anime isn't.

[Lord Beerus]

You'd think if Black was weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta who himself is within that Buu level realm of strenght that just one punch from SSJB Vegeta would defeat him outright just as he did with Cabba but he pummels him around and he's still conscious from it all.

Goku was still conscious when taking hits from 50% Freeza though. Even still SSJ2 Vegeta beating SSJ Black is laughably bad.

I find it so fucking hilarious that the manga power scale is completely fucked now while the anime isn't.

The anime at this stage is the lesser of two evils. I'm shocked and disappointed it has gotten to this stage, but it is what it is. The power sacling in the anime is very wonky and bloats like nothing before it in the Future Trunks arc, with SSJ Future Trunks manging to take on SSJR Goku Black and Future Zamasu being the worst offender. But at least you can find some sort hierarchy of strength. The manga is in a way worse state.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Can someone tell me what are the power level problems in the anime? The more and more I think about them, except for the Rage form Trunks got out of nowhere, everything is pretty clear.

Most of the debates here centers around if Goku and Vegeta's base forms use god ki. Like, do they have a weak base form and a story base form that they used. Like Piccolo's fight with Frost. Piccolo did well despite being outmatch, so was base form Goku the same base form that fought final form Freeza after he trained. Then, they're the golden forms and wondering what the multiplier behind Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Also, is Super Saiyan God = to base form or Super Saiyan.

I think the biggest issue with the God Ki in Base forms comes from the name Saiyan Beyond God. If we start calling it Ki-Condensed Base (like what they learned from training inside Whis' Staff), it would explain how they got so strong. They can condense their ki into their base form and it powers them up.

Some guy on the manga thread just mentioned Vegeta's strong Super Saiyan 2 might be because he lacks Super Saiyan God, so until it's clarified in the translated text, I am going with:

Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan God Goku
Super Saiyan 2(Mutated) Vegeta
Super Saiyan Black
Base Black
Super Saiyan 2(Mutated) Trunks/Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Base Goku/Vegeta/Trunks


A bit complicated sure, but ever since Rageta, it has looked possible a complicated setup like this might come along one day.

I saw the Super Saiyan 2 Mutation to be what happened with the 'My Bulma' incident. One could argue it just was a rage boost, but it did seem like a different style of transforming than he did before. Plus, who cares at this point?!? Let's just say Super Saiyan 2 Mutation is a form. We've dealt with enough shit, and if this helps us explain things, then so be it.

This is how I see the Saiyan Transformations:
Base < Great Ape < Super Saiyan < Super Saiyan Grade 2 < Super Saiyan Grade 3 < Super Saiyan 2 < Super Saiyan 3 < Ultimate < Super Saiyan 2 Mutation < Super Saiyan God = Ritual Super Saiyan < Ki-Condensed Base < Super Saiyan Demigod < Super Saiyan Blue = Super Saiyan Rose

[Overlord78]

It sad that we have to come up with our own headcanons for the manga now.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It sad that we have to come up with our own headcanons for the manga now.

If SS3 Goku = SS2 Trunks < SS2 Vegeta < SSB Vegeta = SSB Goku, then it is super obvious that Vegeta is in his Mutated SS2 form from BoG.

[HeroR]

It sad that we have to come up with our own headcanons for the manga now.

If SS3 Goku = SS2 Trunks < SS2 Vegeta < SSB Vegeta = SSB Goku, then it is super obvious that Vegeta is in his Mutated SS2 form from BoG.

Such a thing isn't stated in the manga, so that is your headcanon. In fact, no one said anything is unusual about Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 form.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So basically it's your own headcanon that Vegeta kept the power of that rage boost when this hasn't been hinted anywhere. Got it.

If the sky is blue, it's obviously day.

SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku, like in BoG. How can it be more obvious than that?!

[Overlord78]

So basically it's your own headcanon that Vegeta kept the power of that rage boost when this hasn't been hinted anywhere. Got it.

If the sky is blue, it's obviously day.

SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku, like in BoG. How can it be more obvious than that?!

This hasn't been hinted anywhere at all. So now we're supposed to accept that this rage boost permantely made him stronger than the likes of Ultimate Gohan. It's funny how people thought It was just a temporary boost until this chapter came out.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This hasn't been hinted anywhere at all.

How so? SS2 Trunks was stated to be on SS3 Goku's level a few chapters back, and Vegeta shows & even says himself that he is stronger than SS2 Trunks. We also know that SSB Vegeta is not stronger than SSB Goku, they are equals. There is no other way around it.

[ChiefWamsutta]

So basically it's your own headcanon that Vegeta kept the power of that rage boost when this hasn't been hinted anywhere. Got it.

If the sky is blue, it's obviously day.

SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS3 Goku, like in BoG. How can it be more obvious than that?!

This hasn't been hinted anywhere at all. So now we're supposed to accept that this rage boost permantely made him stronger than the likes of Ultimate Gohan. It's funny how people thought It was just a temporary boost until this chapter came out.

I never thought that it was temporary and other people didn't. It's very clear that Goku changed his Episode 14 SS form into SSB, and that Vegeta changed his SS2 Mutation form into SSB. Vegeta was able to sense SSGod Goku after the 'My Bulma' moment, meaning he passed the level for sensing god ki during his rage on the boat.

[HeroR]

This hasn't been hinted anywhere at all.

How so? SS2 Trunks was stated to be on SS3 Goku's level a few chapters back, and Vegeta shows & even says himself that he is stronger than SS2 Trunks. We also know that SSB Vegeta is not stronger than SSB Goku, they are equals. There is no other way around it.

The manga itself never claimed that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was special, unlike Trunks whose Super Saiyan 2 was unusually strong and commented on. So the manga just treats is like Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2. They don't even compare it to Trunks, so this is your headcanon and not something that is stated in the actual work.

I never thought that it was temporary and other people didn't. It's very clear that Goku changed his Episode 14 SS form into SSB, and that Vegeta changed his SS2 Mutation form into SSB. Vegeta was able to sense SSGod Goku after the 'My Bulma' moment, meaning he passed the level for sensing god ki during his rage on the boat.

It was never hinted or stated in the ahie or movie that Vegeta kept the power from his rage boost. And it was never said that Vegeta's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is his rage boosted Super Saiyan 2. I don't know where you're getting that from. Also, Vegeta couldn't sense god ki since he couldn't sense Whis in Episode 16. All he felt was pressure.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This hasn't been hinted anywhere at all.

How so? SS2 Trunks was stated to be on SS3 Goku's level a few chapters back, and Vegeta shows & even says himself that he is stronger than SS2 Trunks. We also know that SSB Vegeta is not stronger than SSB Goku, they are equals. There is no other way around it.

The manga itself never claimed that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 was special, unlike Trunks whose Super Saiyan 2 was unusually strong and commented on. So the manga just treats is like Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2. They don't even compare it to Trunks, so this is your headcanon and not something that is stated in the actual work.

Vegeta: “[r] I see…[l] It figures you’d be too much for Trunks to handle.”

This means that SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS2 Trunks, who is on par with SS3 Goku, while SSB Vegeta is on par with SSB Goku.

[HeroR]

Vegeta: “[r] I see…[l] It figures you’d be too much for Trunks to handle.”

This means that SS2 Vegeta is stronger than SS2 Trunks, who is on par with SS3 Goku, while SSB Vegeta is on par with SSB Goku.

That still doesn't tell me that Vegeta is using a special version of Super Saiyan 2, especially when no one said that he was. When Trunks had a unusually strong Super Saiyan 2, everyone was shocked. No one said, 'wow, it's just like Vegeta's form'. It also comes off as more silly since why do Vegeta and Trunks have this weird mutated Super Saiyan 2, but not Goku. The last I checked, they never said it was genetic. I mean, Vegeta rage boosted into it and Trunks just trained into it.

[ZombieVito]

You'd think if Black was weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta who himself is within that Buu level realm of strenght that just one punch from SSJB Vegeta would defeat him outright just as he did with Cabba but he pummels him around and he's still conscious from it all.

Goku was still conscious when taking hits from 50% Freeza though. Even still SSJ2 Vegeta beating SSJ Black is laughably bad.

I find it so fucking hilarious that the manga power scale is completely fucked now while the anime isn't.

The anime at this stage is the lesser of two evils. I'm shocked and disappointed it has gotten to this stage, but it is what it is. The power sacling in the anime is very wonky and bloats like nothing before it in the Future Trunks arc, with SSJ Future Trunks manging to take on SSJR Goku Black and Future Zamasu being the worst offender. But at least you can find some sort hierarchy of strength. The manga is in a way worse state.

Yeah and Trunks performance in that episode can be explained as a rage boost, eliminating the problem easily.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That still doesn't tell me that Vegeta is using a special version of Super Saiyan 2, especially when no one said that he was. When Trunks had a unusually strong Super Saiyan 2, everyone was shocked. No one said, 'wow, it's just like Vegeta's form'. It also comes off as more silly since why do Vegeta and Trunks have this weird mutated Super Saiyan 2, but not Goku. The last I checked, they never said it was genetic. I mean, Vegeta rage boosted into it and Trunks just trained into it.

Trunks' SS2 form isn't the same as Vegeta's, Vegeta's SS2 form is much stronger, over 50 times stronger. SS3 Goku isn't on that level, yet Goku & Vegeta are equals in base & SSB. It appears that Super Saiyan 2's power boost can evolve through training and/or rage.

[ZombieVito]

That still doesn't tell me that Vegeta is using a special version of Super Saiyan 2, especially when no one said that he was. When Trunks had a unusually strong Super Saiyan 2, everyone was shocked. No one said, 'wow, it's just like Vegeta's form'. It also comes off as more silly since why do Vegeta and Trunks have this weird mutated Super Saiyan 2, but not Goku. The last I checked, they never said it was genetic. I mean, Vegeta rage boosted into it and Trunks just trained into it.

Trunks' SS2 form isn't the same as Vegeta's, Vegeta's SS2 form is much stronger, over 50 times stronger. SS3 Goku isn't on that level, yet Goku & Vegeta are equals in base & SSB. It appears that Super Saiyan 2's power boost can evolve through training and/or rage.

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

No matter how you slice it, the manga's power scale is fucked.