Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Trunks' SS2 form isn't the same as Vegeta's, Vegeta's SS2 form is much stronger, over 50 times stronger. SS3 Goku isn't on that level, yet Goku & Vegeta are equals in base & SSB. It appears that Super Saiyan 2's power boost can evolve through training and/or rage.

But why is it much stronger? It being Rage Vegeta is only a theory, not something stated in the manga. And why is only Super Saiyan 2 able to get these giant boosts?

[Abra kadabra]

That still doesn't tell me that Vegeta is using a special version of Super Saiyan 2, especially when no one said that he was. When Trunks had a unusually strong Super Saiyan 2, everyone was shocked. No one said, 'wow, it's just like Vegeta's form'. It also comes off as more silly since why do Vegeta and Trunks have this weird mutated Super Saiyan 2, but not Goku. The last I checked, they never said it was genetic. I mean, Vegeta rage boosted into it and Trunks just trained into it.

Trunks' SS2 form isn't the same as Vegeta's, Vegeta's SS2 form is much stronger, over 50 times stronger. SS3 Goku isn't on that level, yet Goku & Vegeta are equals in base & SSB. It appears that Super Saiyan 2's power boost can evolve through training and/or rage.

That would make SSJ2 vegeta 50x stronger than SSJ3 goku. That large a gap doesn't seem right

[Abra kadabra]

Trunks' SS2 form isn't the same as Vegeta's, Vegeta's SS2 form is much stronger, over 50 times stronger. SS3 Goku isn't on that level, yet Goku & Vegeta are equals in base & SSB. It appears that Super Saiyan 2's power boost can evolve through training and/or rage.

But why is it much stronger? It being Rage Vegeta is only a theory, not something stated in the manga. And why is only Super Saiyan 2 able to get these giant boosts?

SSJ 1 could be perfected so I assume the same could apply to SSJ2. I see SSJ3 as an anomaly that isn't attainable under normal conditions and suffers performance wise because of it

[HeroR]

SSJ 1 could be perfected so I assume the same could apply to SSJ2. I see SSJ3 as an anomaly that isn't attainable under normal conditions and suffers performance wise because of it

Master Super Saiyan isn't stronger than an unmastered Super Saiyan. It is just more energy efficient, as Vegeta explained to Trunks. So the Super Saiyan multiplier didn't suddenly shoot up.

[Lord Beerus]

That still doesn't tell me that Vegeta is using a special version of Super Saiyan 2, especially when no one said that he was. When Trunks had a unusually strong Super Saiyan 2, everyone was shocked. No one said, 'wow, it's just like Vegeta's form'. It also comes off as more silly since why do Vegeta and Trunks have this weird mutated Super Saiyan 2, but not Goku. The last I checked, they never said it was genetic. I mean, Vegeta rage boosted into it and Trunks just trained into it.

Trunks' SS2 form isn't the same as Vegeta's, Vegeta's SS2 form is much stronger, over 50 times stronger. SS3 Goku isn't on that level, yet Goku & Vegeta are equals in base & SSB. It appears that Super Saiyan 2's power boost can evolve through training and/or rage.

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

No matter how you slice it, the manga's power scale is fucked.

I completely forgot about what happened in the HIt fight. What happened in this chapter just makes that fight even more bullshit.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I never thought that it was temporary and other people didn't. It's very clear that Goku changed his Episode 14 SS form into SSB, and that Vegeta changed his SS2 Mutation form into SSB. Vegeta was able to sense SSGod Goku after the 'My Bulma' moment, meaning he passed the level for sensing god ki during his rage on the boat.

It was never hinted or stated in the ahie or movie that Vegeta kept the power from his rage boost. And it was never said that Vegeta's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is his rage boosted Super Saiyan 2. I don't know where you're getting that from. Also, Vegeta couldn't sense god ki since he couldn't sense Whis in Episode 16. All he felt was pressure.

Dude, nothing is hinted at or stated anymore. The manga and anime is a shitshow of confusion, and this Super Saiyan Goku Black garbage was the nail in the coffin. We were hoping that the manga could hold out some sense of consistency, but it fucked us royally.

In the anime Goku calls his SSB a "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God," so basically a SSGSS. He then states that Vegeta didn't use the ritual, implying that one could train to get to SSB. I see Goku's SSB as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but not Vegeta's. I believe he trained the Episode 14 SS he used against Beerus (which is basically a Super Saiyan with the power of SSG) and after training it became SSB ... an SSGSS. I believe Vegeta trained his 'My Bulma' SS2 to become a SSB, which would not be an SSGSS though.

Yeah, it's hard to believe or understand, but nothing makes any sense anymore. People have to start looking into ideas other than just what is shown on screen. What is shown is inconsistent crap.

[RandomGuy96]

New episode.

Did Piccolo just sense Goku as a God? He definitely said Super Saiyan Blue and he and Gohan knew where he was to fly over to him.

Eh? He specifically said that he couldn't sense Godku. He knew that Goku went SSB because he couldn't sense his energy. If anything this should just count as an explicit retcon of the "you absorbed the god ki into your other forms" bit.

Has Hit powered up? Goku couldn't do anything to do at all (in this episode) when Hit was using his timeskip, actually that was true back in the tournament though. Goku had to use Kaioken to get around it so it doesn't particularly mean he got more powerful. Still though Hit completely one shotted SSJB Goku so wouldn't that put him above.....practically everyone, nobody has done that to him yet. It's gotta put him above Black though right?

Looks like they fight more in the next episode so maybe that'll become more clear.

What was the reason given for Anime Goku not one-shotting Zamasu-Goku with the KK x10 again? Or SSB Vegetto not one-shotting Merged Zamasu with a mere KK x2?

With the feats Hit showed in this weeks episode, Is he above Black?

He was going to beat SSB Goku x 10... while SSR Zamasu-Goku was more or less on par with him... I'm pretty sure we already knew Hit was stronger.

Also Herms made a tweet about Black and comments made about him from Toriyama that says Black can turn into a Super Saiyan like Goku and then another with a slightly different colour. So Super Saiyan Rose definitely isn't just Black as a Super Saiyan but something greater.

Yet another indication that Toriyama's paying closer attention to the manga than the anime. Zamasu-Goku uses pre-SSR forms there. Speaking of which, this basically confirms beyond all doubt that anime's power scaling is fucked (if we're going by the usual "Toriyama's word is god" approach). SSR Zamasu-Goku is almost negligibly stronger than his base in the anime, yet Toriyama here says that it's at least a considerably greater boost than Goku's Super Saiyan... which the U7 arc indicates gives the same boost that it always has...

Until now I've been somewhat tolerant of Toyotaro's changes, but SSJ Black is just bullshit.

It fucks up the power scale hard. Now the gap between SSJ and Blue is enormous in the manga.

It wasn't already? I thought the manga previously maintained that base to SS3 Goku was basically as strong as he was vs Buu, and that SSB is the only form that is even in the same dimension as the god-level powers. I mean bare minimum, SS3 is x8 stronger than SS, SSG is significantly more than x2 SS3 (x16 SS), and SSB is even stronger than that.

Now Hit vs SSJ Goku is impossible. There's no way SSJ Goku could fight Hit like that when the latter is hundreds of times stronger.

Toei did the right thing in just having Rose.

I don't see how this is worse than base Goku fighting... anyone in the anime. Hit was screwing around; I mean we already knew that much for sure, unless we want to say SSB Goku is less than x10 stronger than SS Goku in the manga... which is just crazy. I never believed that. I was always under the impression base, SS, SS2, and SS3 Goku are pretty much as strong as they were in the Buu arc.

Some guy on the manga thread just mentioned Vegeta's strong Super Saiyan 2 might be because he lacks Super Saiyan God, so until it's clarified in the translated text, I am going with:

Super Saiyan Blue Goku/Vegeta
Super Saiyan God Goku
Super Saiyan 2(Mutated) Vegeta
Super Saiyan Black
Base Black
Super Saiyan 2(Mutated) Trunks/Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku/Vegeta/Trunks
Base Goku/Vegeta/Trunks


A bit complicated sure, but ever since Rageta, it has looked possible a complicated setup like this might come along one day.

I'm favoring this for now. Official translation might explain it better, but Vegeta using his "mutant" SS2 from BOG seems like the most plausible option, given that Vegeta directly says he's stronger than SS2 Trunks who was directly stated to be nearly as strong as SS3 Goku. With that out of the way, the manga still has no problems.

[ZombieVito]

It doesn't make sense:
* Lets assume SSG is 10 times stronger than SSJ3 and SSB is 25.

Goku/Vegeta: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
SSG: 4,000
SSB: 10,000

Hit: Stronger than 1,000
FP: Less than 10,000

Black: 500
SSJ: 25,000
SSJ2: 50,000
SSJ3: 200,000
SSG: 2,000,000
SSR: 5,000,000

The problem begins when SSR Black is supposed to be on the same tier as SSB Goku and Vegeta, that's just impossible now.

Also Hit should be at 500,000 against SSJ Goku (Since he managed to freeze 10% SSB Vegeta) but Goku was able to put a fight and not get one shotted, making that impossible as well. It also doesn't make sense anymore for Hit to use the Time Skip. He could have just one shotted Goku since he's thousands of times stronger.

Black transforming into a regular Super Saiyan fucked everything up. Unless of course SSR Black is really thousands of times stronger than SSB but that will never happen.

[brett wheeler]

Until now I've been somewhat tolerant of Toyotaro's changes, but SSJ Black is just bullshit.

It fucks up the power scale hard. Now the gap between SSJ and Blue is enormous in the manga.

It wasn't already? I thought the manga previously maintained that base to SS3 Goku was basically as strong as he was vs Buu, and that SSB is the only form that is even in the same dimension as the god-level powers. I mean bare minimum, SS3 is x8 stronger than SS, SSG is significantly more than x2 SS3 (x16 SS), and SSB is even stronger than that.

To be fair the manga messed up power scaling anyway, ssj2 goku and vegeta should be even and ssj2 trunks should be above them, yet ssj2 vegeta was on par if not stronger than ssj ( or ssj2 its still unclear ) goku blackwho trunks said got strong enough in base to destroy him in ssj2 at the least be a little stronger than ssj2 trunks full power. So the power scaling is messed up manga wise too ( and from what I could tell vegeta didnt need to go ssb but did to sare black as he was handling black just fine in ssj2 alone or ssj dont know what form vegeta was using either ).

[Speedster]

Manga power scaling
1. In the manga it was stated that Hit could only use tokitobashi only on people who are either near or below his power level. Hit could use it on SSJ1 Goku so SSJ1 Goku definitely wasn’t considerably stronger. But on the flip side SSJ1 Goku WAS near HIT’s power and not considerably weaker. Either (i)suppressed Hit was slightly weaker than SSJ1 Goku but was able to keep up him due to Tokitobashi or (ii)suppressed Hit was equal to SSJ1 Goku but chose to use Tokitobashi in order to save his stamina. Either way Suppressed Hit was definitely not stronger than SSJ1 Goku.

2. The same Suppressed Hit was definitely stronger than (less) 10% SSJB Vegeta as he could use tokitobashi on him and at the same time he kicked his butt.

3. That would mean that Goku’s/Vegeta’s SSJ1 forms when fully powered are at least a bit higher than what Vegeta was against Hit which was less than 10% of their SSJB forms. So let’s lowball the SSJ forms to just 10% of SSJ Blue.

4. That means that between SSJ1 and SSJB you have a 10x gap to shoe-horn SSJ2, SSJ3 and SSJG and SSJB. Like for example:

Less than 10% SSBlue=0.85
SSJ1/Suppressed Hit=1
SSJ2=2
SSJ3=3.5
SSJG=7.25
SSJBlue=10

5. When Hit powered up fully was unable to use tokitobashi on SSJBlue Goku so he was weaker and not near SSBlue either. He was probably an 8.5 compared to SSJB Goku’s 10. That is without his assassination techniques of course.

6. The manga definitely throws out of the window that base=SSG as Toyotaro keeps using SSG as its own form which is well above all the yellow forms but below Blue.

7. In the anime we are told that SSJ2 is tens of times stronger than base. Even if it continues to be 100xbase, SSG is just 362.5x base and SSJB is 500x base.

8. But at what level is their base? I would assume that a full-power base would be able to compete with 100% Final form Frost or let’s say he would be around 90% of Final form Frost. Goku mostly transformed to SSJ1 to force Frost to show his full power.

9. Piccolo could compete with a worn-out final form Frost. However Goku stated he couldn’t stand a chance against him so he was weaker. I take the choreography that was mostly for contrived drama purposes. Still you can’t completely ignore it and put Piccolo much below worn-out Frost. So let’s say he was about 50% of worn-out Frost.

10. Now how much weaker did Frost become after his fight with Goku? OK Vegeta got 10x weaker by merely transforming to SSB and receiving no damage. On the other hand I doubt that Frost became more than 50x weaker.

11. If we put Piccolo in the U6 arc to be at Regular Prefect Cell’s level we have this:

Regular Perfect Cell/Piccolo (U6)=0.2
Injured SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games)=0.35
Super Perfect Cell/Worn-out Frost=0.375
SSJ2 Gohan (Cell Games)=0.7
Majin SSJ2 Vegeta=1
Regular Super Buu=5
Ultimate Gohan=7
Buuhan=12.3
Freeza Final Form (RoF)=13
Base Goku (RoF)=14.5
Base Goku (U6 tournament/ start of FT arc)=16.5
Final Form Frost 100%=18.75
Super Vegetto (Buu arc)=25
Magetta, SSJ1 Goku/SSJ1 Vegeta (U6)=825
SSJ2 Goku (start of FT arc)=1650
SSJ3 Goku (start of FT Arc)=3000
SSJG Goku (BoGs)=6000
SSJG Goku (U6 arc/start of FT arc)=6400
SSJ Blue Goku (RoF)=7250
Hit/Golden Freeza=7500
SSJB Goku (U6 arc/start of FT arc)=8250

[ZombieVito]

Until now I've been somewhat tolerant of Toyotaro's changes, but SSJ Black is just bullshit.

It fucks up the power scale hard. Now the gap between SSJ and Blue is enormous in the manga.

It wasn't already? I thought the manga previously maintained that base to SS3 Goku was basically as strong as he was vs Buu, and that SSB is the only form that is even in the same dimension as the god-level powers. I mean bare minimum, SS3 is x8 stronger than SS, SSG is significantly more than x2 SS3 (x16 SS), and SSB is even stronger than that.

To be fair the manga messed up power scaling anyway, ssj2 goku and vegeta should be even and ssj2 trunks should be above them, yet ssj2 vegeta was on par if not stronger than ssj ( or ssj2 its still unclear ) goku blackwho trunks said got strong enough in base to destroy him in ssj2 at the least be a little stronger than ssj2 trunks full power. So the power scaling is messed up manga wise too ( and from what I could tell vegeta didnt need to go ssb but did to sare black as he was handling black just fine in ssj2 alone or ssj dont know what form vegeta was using either ).

They were both using SSJ2.

I still can't find a single thing wrong with the anime power scaling.

[Abra kadabra]

If Vegeta's SSB was his SSJ2 with God ki he would be SSB2 and stronger than SSB goku no? And that isn't the case. And in the anime none of this happens so it has to be Toyotaro's means to an end. the next chapter will probably explain why the events in this chapter happened the way it did, because vegeta turning SSB right away like the anime would have solved the problem this chapter created.

Because SSJ2 vegeta stomping SSJ2 black makes no sense

[TheUltimateNinja]

Even when he is given clear guidelines Toyotaro manages to fuck it up. Even if you assume Vegeta is using his retarded mutated SSJ2 or whatever, let me explain why that doesn't make sense:

SSJ2 Trunks is about even with SSJ3 Goku, and he got destroyed by Base Black, therefore Base form Black > SSJ3 Goku.

SSJ Goku was able to keep up with Hit who was at least 10% of SSBlue, therefore SSJ = 10% of SSBlue. This means SSJ3 = 80% of SSBlue.

This would indicate that Black is already SSBlue level in Base as he can demolish an SSJ3 Goku level fighter.

Now, Black goes SSJ2 and becomes 100x stronger than SSBlue, then Vegeta comes in and wrecks him with his own SSJ2, this means Vegeta's SSJ2 is hundreds of times stronger than his SSBlue.

On the other hand, if Vegeta's SSJ2 isn't actually that strong is only as strong as maybe SSGod level - we'll have to fit that above SSJ3 which is 80% of SSBlue, so we'll say SSGod is 90% of SSBlue - then Black actually became weaker from transforming as he was already SSBlue level in Base but now that he's transformed he's barely SSJ3 tier.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Trunks' SS2 form isn't the same as Vegeta's, Vegeta's SS2 form is much stronger, over 50 times stronger. SS3 Goku isn't on that level, yet Goku & Vegeta are equals in base & SSB. It appears that Super Saiyan 2's power boost can evolve through training and/or rage.

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

No matter how you slice it, the manga's power scale is fucked.

I completely forgot about what happened in the HIt fight. What happened in this chapter just makes that fight even more bullshit.

My guess is that the 10% thing was Toyotaro's pathetic excuse for not using Kaioken x10, instead of making Goku 10x stronger he opted to make Vegeta 10x weaker without giving any thought to how much it would fuck the power scale up.

[HeroR]

Dude, nothing is hinted at or stated anymore. The manga and anime is a shitshow of confusion, and this Super Saiyan Goku Black garbage was the nail in the coffin. We were hoping that the manga could hold out some sense of consistency, but it fucked us royally.

In the anime Goku calls his SSB a "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God," so basically a SSGSS. He then states that Vegeta didn't use the ritual, implying that one could train to get to SSB. I see Goku's SSB as a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, but not Vegeta's. I believe he trained the Episode 14 SS he used against Beerus (which is basically a Super Saiyan with the power of SSG) and after training it became SSB ... an SSGSS. I believe Vegeta trained his 'My Bulma' SS2 to become a SSB, which would not be an SSGSS though.

Yeah, it's hard to believe or understand, but nothing makes any sense anymore. People have to start looking into ideas other than just what is shown on screen. What is shown is inconsistent crap.

Goku's Super Saiyan form at the end of BOG doesn't have god ki, while Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. That's the difference between the two. And Vegeta was never said to have a mutated Super Saiyan 2 outside his one temporary rage boost. Goku and Vegeta also specifically did all their training in their base form, as stated in Episode 18.

You can't just ignore what the anime tells you to shoehorn theories. Vegeta clearly couldn't sense god ki in Episode 16 because he couldn't sense Whis. Goku's Super Saiyan form kept the power of Super Saiyan God despite it not having any god ki because everyone could sense it and Whis said that Goku isn't a god anymore. Goku and Vegeta did their training in base forms. They didn't train any specific Super Saiyan form. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan with god ki that Goku and Vegeta unlocked during their training. Giving information from the show, the form is achieved through prefect ki control and a calm mind. Nothing about mutated Super Saiyan forms.

[brett wheeler]

It fucks up the power scale hard. Now the gap between SSJ and Blue is enormous in the manga.

It wasn't already? I thought the manga previously maintained that base to SS3 Goku was basically as strong as he was vs Buu, and that SSB is the only form that is even in the same dimension as the god-level powers. I mean bare minimum, SS3 is x8 stronger than SS, SSG is significantly more than x2 SS3 (x16 SS), and SSB is even stronger than that.

To be fair the manga messed up power scaling anyway, ssj2 goku and vegeta should be even and ssj2 trunks should be above them, yet ssj2 vegeta was on par if not stronger than ssj ( or ssj2 its still unclear ) goku blackwho trunks said got strong enough in base to destroy him in ssj2 at the least be a little stronger than ssj2 trunks full power. So the power scaling is messed up manga wise too ( and from what I could tell vegeta didnt need to go ssb but did to sare black as he was handling black just fine in ssj2 alone or ssj dont know what form vegeta was using either ).

They were both using SSJ2.

I still can't find a single thing wrong with the anime power scaling.

Power scaling in the anime problems come from not knowing where base geku/vegeta are and not knowing how much stronger beerus is than ssb goku and vegeta witch isnt as big a deal as people think just a little aggravating. The manga was pretty straight forward till recently as far as i could tell, ssj goku vs hit was weird but explained already by the fact hit was holding back. Piccolo vs frost is explainable by the fact piccolo was training so he's probably stronger now at the least close to base goku/vegeta who are around ssj3 gokubuu saga imo in the manga, sp piccolo is about a ssj2.5 goku buu saga goku lvl. Basically nothing else was wrong its not as bad as people think just hard to get sometimes

[TheUltimateNinja]

On the plus side, Beerus' "10%" line and Whis' "The two of you could give Beerus trouble" line would ironically actually make sense in the manga, since SSGod is shit and barely stronger than SSJ3, it makes sense that rage boosted SSJ2 Vegeta can reach 10% of Beerus, and since they have barely improved from the start and SSBlue Kaioken isn't a thing, the two of them could very well be able to challenge Beerus together while being unable to do so individually.

[Bullza]

The latest chapter has messed up the manga power levels quite a bit. I always paid more attention to the anime version but the manga's did make more sense but now it's just as confusing.

So now to make sense of it we've gotta say that Vegeta in his Base and Super Saiyan form is equal to Goku but then his SSJ2 form is much stronger than Goku's SSJ3 form because it's some weird mutated version?

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was shown to be superior to SSJ3 Gotenks (and Ultimate Gohan?) so it was definitely stronger than SSJ3 Goku at the time. It was also inferior to SSJG Goku too.

Is that where Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta is supposed to be placed then? He's over 50 or 100 times stronger than the SSJ3 Goku who fought Trunks but is weaker than the SSJG Goku who fought Beerus and Hit?

It could make sense I suppose but it's so unnecessarily confusing yet again.

[HeroR]

Power scaling in the anime problems come from not knowing where base geku/vegeta are and not knowing how much stronger beerus is than ssb goku and vegeta witch isnt as big a deal as people think just a little aggravating. The manga was pretty straight forward till recently as far as i could tell, ssj goku vs hit was weird but explained already by the fact hit was holding back. Piccolo vs frost is explainable by the fact piccolo was training so he's probably stronger now at the least close to base goku/vegeta who are around ssj3 gokubuu saga imo in the manga, sp piccolo is about a ssj2.5 goku buu saga goku lvl. Basically nothing else was wrong its not as bad as people think just hard to get sometimes

But we do have an idea of where Goku and Vegeta's base forms stand because we say Copy Vegeta, who has the same power as normal Vegeta, no sells hit from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. The series never said Gotenks got weaker, so we can assumed that he's about as strong as he was during the Buu Saga. Even before then, we knew Goku's base form was stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 at the beginning of the series since base form Goku took hits from Beerus while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got one-shotted.

Most of the debate about base forms Goku and Vegeta mostly centers around if they have two base forms.

Beerus is simply as strong as the plot demands since Toriyama doesn't want Goku and Vegeta to surpass him at this moment. So any gains Goku and Vegeta makes as individuals will always be weaker than Beerus until stated otherwise.

On the plus side, Beerus' "10%" line and Whis' "The two of you could give Beerus trouble" line would ironically actually make sense in the manga, since SSGod is shit and barely stronger than SSJ3, it makes sense that rage boosted SSJ2 Vegeta can reach 10% of Beerus, and since they have barely improved from the start and SSBlue Kaioken isn't a thing, the two of them could very well be able to challenge Beerus together while being unable to do so individually.

But Rage Vegeta didn't reached 10% Beerus at all. Beerus blocked all of Vegeta's attacks with one finger, tanked an energy attack, and then slapped Vegeta out of his Super Saiyan form. Beerus may have used 10% of his power, but it was clearly overkill, just like Freeza using 50% of his power against Goku before he became a Super Saiyan was overkill. It also makes no sense for Rage Vegeta to be stronger or even in reach of Super Saiyan God Goku since Goku gave Beerus a decent fight, while Rage Vegeta in both versions didn't.

The latest chapter has messed up the manga power levels quite a bit. I always paid more attention to the anime version but the manga's did make more sense but now it's just as confusing.

So now to make sense of it we've gotta say that Vegeta in his Base and Super Saiyan form is equal to Goku but then his SSJ2 form is much stronger than Goku's SSJ3 form because it's some weird mutated version?

Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta was shown to be superior to SSJ3 Gotenks (and Ultimate Gohan?) so it was definitely stronger than SSJ3 Goku at the time. It was also inferior to SSJG Goku too.

Is that where Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta is supposed to be placed then? He's over 50 or 100 times stronger than the SSJ3 Goku who fought Trunks but is weaker than the SSJG Goku who fought Beerus and Hit?

It could make sense I suppose but it's so unnecessarily confusing yet again.

In the manga, Goku used Super Saiyan God to knocked out Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. So Black's base form should be as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku. Even if we say that he's a little weaker than Super Saiyan God Goku, it makes little different if he has that strength added on top of Super Saiyan 1/2. So, even if we assumed Vegeta's mutated Super Saiyan 2 is on par or even stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku, that form should only be as strong as Base Black, not Super Saiyan 1/2 Black.

[TheMikado]

Even when he is given clear guidelines Toyotaro manages to fuck it up. Even if you assume Vegeta is using his retarded mutated SSJ2 or whatever, let me explain why that doesn't make sense:

SSJ2 Trunks is about even with SSJ3 Goku, and he got destroyed by Base Black, therefore Base form Black > SSJ3 Goku.

SSJ Goku was able to keep up with Hit who was at least 10% of SSBlue, therefore SSJ = 10% of SSBlue. This means SSJ3 = 80% of SSBlue.

This would indicate that Black is already SSBlue level in Base as he can demolish an SSJ3 Goku level fighter.

Now, Black goes SSJ2 and becomes 100x stronger than SSBlue, then Vegeta comes in and wrecks him with his own SSJ2, this means Vegeta's SSJ2 is hundreds of times stronger than his SSBlue.

On the other hand, if Vegeta's SSJ2 isn't actually that strong is only as strong as maybe SSGod level - we'll have to fit that above SSJ3 which is 80% of SSBlue, so we'll say SSGod is 90% of SSBlue - then Black actually became weaker from transforming as he was already SSBlue level in Base but now that he's transformed he's barely SSJ3 tier.

What the heck are you guys talking about?????
SSJ Goku was able to keep up with Hit not because he was as strong as SSB but because he figured out his technique. Have any of you ACTUALLY WATCHED the anime???

By your same logic Base Goku is as strong as SSB Vegeta in the ANIME which is REALLY COMPLETELY stupid. Come on guys lets at least try to use common sense.