Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

In the manga, Goku used Super Saiyan God to knocked out Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. So Black's base form should be as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku.

All that means is that they're both stronger than Trunks. Base Black could be stronger than Trunks, Super Saiyan 2 Black could be 100 times stronger than that, Mutated Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta could be somewhat stronger than that and then Super Saiyan God Goku would be stronger than that to a similar margin as he was back in the Battle of Gods arc.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

What? Only SSG Goku was stated to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.

[TheMikado]

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

What? Only SSG Goku was stated to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.

People are just making up crap for no reason. I feel like half the people posting just read the forums or plot overviews or maybe team4star and just post whatever they heard.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Even when he is given clear guidelines Toyotaro manages to fuck it up. Even if you assume Vegeta is using his retarded mutated SSJ2 or whatever, let me explain why that doesn't make sense:

SSJ2 Trunks is about even with SSJ3 Goku, and he got destroyed by Base Black, therefore Base form Black > SSJ3 Goku.

SSJ Goku was able to keep up with Hit who was at least 10% of SSBlue, therefore SSJ = 10% of SSBlue. This means SSJ3 = 80% of SSBlue.

This would indicate that Black is already SSBlue level in Base as he can demolish an SSJ3 Goku level fighter.

Now, Black goes SSJ2 and becomes 100x stronger than SSBlue, then Vegeta comes in and wrecks him with his own SSJ2, this means Vegeta's SSJ2 is hundreds of times stronger than his SSBlue.

On the other hand, if Vegeta's SSJ2 isn't actually that strong is only as strong as maybe SSGod level - we'll have to fit that above SSJ3 which is 80% of SSBlue, so we'll say SSGod is 90% of SSBlue - then Black actually became weaker from transforming as he was already SSBlue level in Base but now that he's transformed he's barely SSJ3 tier.

What the heck are you guys talking about?????
SSJ Goku was able to keep up with Hit not because he was as strong as SSB but because he figured out his technique. Have any of you ACTUALLY WATCHED the anime???

By your same logic Base Goku is as strong as SSB Vegeta in the ANIME which is REALLY COMPLETELY stupid. Come on guys lets at least try to use common sense.

Goku was able to block attacks from Hit easily, and we know Hit > 10% SSBlue Vegeta, therefore Goku at least has to be on that level or Hit would easily break through his defense.

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

What? Only SSG Goku was stated to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.

Goku was easily keeping up with and blocking Hit's attacks, this wouldn't be possible if he was much weaker as in that case Hit could easily thrash him without even using the time skip.

[HeroR]

In the manga, Goku used Super Saiyan God to knocked out Super Saiyan 2 Trunks. So Black's base form should be as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku.

All that means is that they're both stronger than Trunks. Base Black could be stronger than Trunks, Super Saiyan 2 Black could be 100 times stronger than that, Mutated Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta could be somewhat stronger than that and then Super Saiyan God Goku would be stronger than that to a similar margin as he was back in the Battle of Gods arc.

Even if we pretend there is a big different between Super Saiyan God Goku and Black, how much of a jump do you think Vegeta's mutated Super Saiyan 2 have to be to overpowered Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta, even if base form Black was two time weaker than Super Saiyan God.

[TheMikado]

Even when he is given clear guidelines Toyotaro manages to fuck it up. Even if you assume Vegeta is using his retarded mutated SSJ2 or whatever, let me explain why that doesn't make sense:

SSJ2 Trunks is about even with SSJ3 Goku, and he got destroyed by Base Black, therefore Base form Black > SSJ3 Goku.

SSJ Goku was able to keep up with Hit who was at least 10% of SSBlue, therefore SSJ = 10% of SSBlue. This means SSJ3 = 80% of SSBlue.

This would indicate that Black is already SSBlue level in Base as he can demolish an SSJ3 Goku level fighter.

Now, Black goes SSJ2 and becomes 100x stronger than SSBlue, then Vegeta comes in and wrecks him with his own SSJ2, this means Vegeta's SSJ2 is hundreds of times stronger than his SSBlue.

On the other hand, if Vegeta's SSJ2 isn't actually that strong is only as strong as maybe SSGod level - we'll have to fit that above SSJ3 which is 80% of SSBlue, so we'll say SSGod is 90% of SSBlue - then Black actually became weaker from transforming as he was already SSBlue level in Base but now that he's transformed he's barely SSJ3 tier.

What the heck are you guys talking about?????
SSJ Goku was able to keep up with Hit not because he was as strong as SSB but because he figured out his technique. Have any of you ACTUALLY WATCHED the anime???

By your same logic Base Goku is as strong as SSB Vegeta in the ANIME which is REALLY COMPLETELY stupid. Come on guys lets at least try to use common sense.

Goku was able to block attacks from Hit easily, and we know Hit > 10% SSBlue Vegeta, therefore Goku at least has to be on that level or Hit would easily break through his defense.

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

What? Only SSG Goku was stated to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.

Goku was easily keeping up with and blocking Hit's attacks, this wouldn't be possible if he was much weaker as in that case Hit could easily thrash him without even using the time skip.

So in the anime I guess base Goku is close to full power SSB Vegeta then by the same logic...

[TheUltimateNinja]

So in the anime I guess base Goku is close to full power SSB Vegeta then by the same logic...

Yeah, by my numbers the gap is a little less than 50%.
Base Goku: 10
SSBlue Vegeta: 14.7

[HeroR]

So in the anime I guess base Goku is close to full power SSB Vegeta then by the same logic...

There is a different. Hit was specifically holding back since he didn't want to kill Goku and thought Goku was being stupid, thinking he could break his Time-Skip. The minute Hit realized he had to be serious, he didn't hold back, outside of his killing techniques.

The anime and the manga played these events the same. After Goku figured out the Time-Skip , Hit wasn't holding back, so you can see why the power scale seems off.

[TheMikado]

So in the anime I guess base Goku is close to full power SSB Vegeta then by the same logic...

Yeah, by my numbers the gap is a little less than 50%.
Base Goku: 10
SSBlue Vegeta: 14.7

Wait is this a widespread thought processes???
How would you even fit all the other SSJ levels into that small a scale?

[TheUltimateNinja]

So in the anime I guess base Goku is close to full power SSB Vegeta then by the same logic...

Yeah, by my numbers the gap is a little less than 50%.
Base Goku: 10
SSBlue Vegeta: 14.7

Wait is this a widespread thought processes???
How would you even fit all the other SSJ levels into that small a scale?

It's the 2 base theory, the SSJ states use their regular base and SSBlue uses their Godly base.
My scale goes like this:
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
God ki Base: 50,000
SSBlue: 75,000

[HeroR]

It's the 2 base theory, the SSJ states use their regular base and SSBlue uses their Godly base.
My scale goes like this:
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
God ki Base: 50,000
SSBlue: 75,000

So when exactly do Goku and Vegeta used this super powerful god ki base form?

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's the 2 base theory, the SSJ states use their regular base and SSBlue uses their Godly base.
My scale goes like this:
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
God ki Base: 50,000
SSBlue: 75,000

So when exactly do Goku and Vegeta used this super powerful god ki base form?

Whenever they go SSBlue, and when they're facing opponents stronger than their SSJ forms like Hit.

[HeroR]

Whenever they go SSBlue, and when they're facing opponents stronger than their SSJ forms like Hit.

So, Goku was using this ultra powerful base form against Hit? How do you know this? There was no aura and Goku didn't charge up. He looks exactly the same as when he was fighting Frost and Hit doesn't note any difference in power since he tells Goku to transform. If this super-powerful base form exist, when do they turn it on and use it, and how do you know they're using it if they don't even need an aura? Also, was Goku using this god powered base form against Frieza? Because everyone could sense Goku's ki up until he turned into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So even if this form has god ki, it can still be sense like normal ki?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Whenever they go SSBlue, and when they're facing opponents stronger than their SSJ forms like Hit.

So, Goku was using this ultra powerful base form against Hit? How do you know this? There was no aura and Goku didn't charge up. He looks exactly the same as when he was fighting Frost and Hit doesn't note any difference in power since he tells Goku to transform. If this super-powerful base form exist, when do they turn it on and use it, and how do you know they're using it if they don't even need an aura? Also, was Goku using this god powered base form against Frieza? Because everyone could sense Goku's ki up until he turned into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So even if this form has god ki, it can still be sense like normal ki?

It's like when Goku retained all of the power of SSG against Beerus even though his ki could still be sensed. Plus SSBlue is described as a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God, so basically their base forms become as powerful as SSGod.

[TheMikado]

It's the 2 base theory, the SSJ states use their regular base and SSBlue uses their Godly base.
My scale goes like this:
Base: 1
SSJ: 50
SSJ2: 100
SSJ3: 400
God ki Base: 50,000
SSBlue: 75,000

So when exactly do Goku and Vegeta used this super powerful god ki base form?

Even though I do think there should be two bases there aren't in the anime and even if there were the scenario makes zero sense why would Goku start at his God base and then DOWN to a form that's 1/1000th of that?

Anyway, this is a example of my issue with Super. I don't see how something can be so ambiguously written to where you have this level of differing opinions of merely what events actually transpired.

[HeroR]

It's like when Goku retained all of the power of SSG against Beerus even though his ki could still be sensed. Plus SSBlue is described as a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God, so basically their base forms become as powerful as SSGod.

If it had god ki, why can it still be sense? Also, Whis and Beerus specifically stated that Goku wasn't a god anymore and he only retained the memory of godhood. They never said he had a trace of god energy in his base. And again, how do even know when Goku is using this god base form when there's no visual cues or statements outside of who do you think requires this god base form. If Goku's base form jumped between his fight with Frost and then Hit, why didn't anyone say anything?

Also, when I think about it, Goku was a golden Super Saiyan when he fought Beerus during the final leg and got weaker after going back to base. So Goku's golden Super Saiyan form was on par with Super Saiyan God, without god ki. Why wasn't his hair blue then if he was using god ki?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Even though I do think there should be two bases there aren't in the anime and even if there were the scenario makes zero sense why would Goku start at his God base and then DOWN to a form that's 1/1000th of that?

Anyway, this is a example of my issue with Super. I don't see how something can be so ambiguously written to where you have this level of differing opinions of merely what events actually transpired.

My theory only applies to the anime, not the manga. There's only one base in the manga which is why I have a problem with it.

It's like when Goku retained all of the power of SSG against Beerus even though his ki could still be sensed. Plus SSBlue is described as a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God, so basically their base forms become as powerful as SSGod.

If it had god ki, why can it still be sense? Also, Whis and Beerus specifically stated that Goku wasn't a god anymore and he only retained the memory of godhood. They never said he had a trace of god energy in his base. And again, how do even know when Goku is using this god base form when there's no visual cues or statements outside of who do you think requires this god base form. If Goku's base form jumped between his fight with Frost and then Hit, why didn't anyone say anything?

It means that they have the same power as a God, Goku had retained the same power level against Beerus, but his ki could be sensed despite the fact that he didn't get any weaker. In addition, when Goku and Vegeta were training to produce God ki with Whis they could still be sensed even though Vegeta demonstrated his ability to use it even in base.

Also, nobody comments on SSJ2 Trunks going from getting thrashed by Base form Black to keeping up with SSRose Black, and they don't say anything about Zamasu going from weaker than SSJ2 Goku to being able to keep up with SSBlues either.

[HeroR]

It means that they have the same power as a God, Goku had retained the same power level against Beerus, but his ki could be sensed despite the fact that he didn't get any weaker. In addition, when Goku and Vegeta were training to produce God ki with Whis they could still be sensed even though Vegeta demonstrated his ability to use it even in base.

Also, nobody comments on SSJ2 Trunks going from getting thrashed by Base form Black to keeping up with SSRose Black, and they don't say anything about Zamasu going from weaker than SSJ2 Goku to being able to keep up with SSBlues either.

Read my edit:

Also, when I think about it, Goku was a golden Super Saiyan when he fought Beerus during the final leg and got weaker after going back to base form. So Goku's golden Super Saiyan form was on par with Super Saiyan God, without god ki. Why wasn't his hair blue then if he was still using god ki?

You're also still ignoring my question of how do you know when this supposed god base form is used, why didn't anyone comment on Goku's base form shooting up in power when he fought Hit compared to when he fought Frost, and why isn't their no visual cues. And why can this god base form be sense despite having god ki when Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan can't? And why would King Kai be surprised that Goku got god ki again when he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan if he already had god ki in his base form when fighting true form Freeza?

He didn't keep up with Super Saiyan Rose. He caught Black off-guard once and literally never touched him again. Trunks got his ass kicked the next time he faced Black and even Future Zamasu. Also, Future Zamasu is older by 17 years than Present Zamasu. He's also a prodigy. Why wouldn't he get stronger, especially when he's hanging out with Black murdering gods. Goku also noticed a different between Future Zamasu and Present Zamasue. He even said, 'there's something different'.

[Abra kadabra]

God ki in base is a headcanon

[TheUltimateNinja]

It means that they have the same power as a God, Goku had retained the same power level against Beerus, but his ki could be sensed despite the fact that he didn't get any weaker. In addition, when Goku and Vegeta were training to produce God ki with Whis they could still be sensed even though Vegeta demonstrated his ability to use it even in base.

Also, nobody comments on SSJ2 Trunks going from getting thrashed by Base form Black to keeping up with SSRose Black, and they don't say anything about Zamasu going from weaker than SSJ2 Goku to being able to keep up with SSBlues either.

Read my edit:

Also, when I think about it, Goku was a golden Super Saiyan when he fought Beerus during the final leg and got weaker after going back to base form. So Goku's golden Super Saiyan form was on par with Super Saiyan God, without god ki. Why wasn't his hair blue then if he was still using god ki?

You're also still ignoring my question of how do you know when this supposed god base form is used, why didn't anyone comment on Goku's base form shooting up in power when he fought Hit compared to when he fought Frost, and why isn't their no visual cues. And why can this god base form be sense despite having god ki when Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan can't? And why would King Kai be surprised that Goku got god ki again when he went Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan if he already had god ki in his base form when fighting true form Freeza?

He didn't keep up with Super Saiyan Rose. He caught Black off-guard once and literally never touched him again. Trunks got his ass kicked the next time he faced Black and even Future Zamasu. Also, Future Zamasu is older by 17 years than Present Zamasu. He's also a prodigy. Why wouldn't he get stronger, especially when he's hanging out with Black murdering gods. Goku also noticed a different between Future Zamasu and Present Zamasue. He even said, 'there's something different'.

There's clearly a difference between SSBlue and the SSJ Goku used against Beerus, SSBlue can't be sensed whereas nobody had any issues sensing Goku against Beerus.

Also, there's no visual cues, it's just logical deduction and is also based on other materials which support the 2 base theory like DBHeroes' Saiyan Beyond God.

Trunks was able to get in the way and block an attack from Black, and later land a good hit on him. This shows that in terms of speed they're nearly on the same level. In DB even a small difference in power is enough to completely speedblitz, for example Goku easily annihilated the Ginyu force without even using his full power so fast they couldn't even follow his movements and he only had a 2x advantage over them. This indicates that SSJ2 Trunks is at least around 60-70% of SSRose Black.

And the difference in Zamasu was his immortality, no comment was made on his power.

God ki in base is a headcanon

Everything is headcanon until officially stated.