Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

There's clearly a difference between SSBlue and the SSJ Goku used against Beerus, SSBlue can't be sensed whereas nobody had any issues sensing Goku against Beerus.

Also, there's no visual cues, it's just logical deduction and is also based on other materials which support the 2 base theory like DBHeroes' Saiyan Beyond God.

Trunks was able to get in the way and block an attack from Black, and later land a good hit on him. This shows that in terms of speed they're nearly on the same level. In DB even a small difference in power is enough to completely speedblitz, for example Goku easily annihilated the Ginyu force without even using his full power so fast they couldn't even follow his movements and he only had a 2x advantage over them. This indicates that SSJ2 Trunks is at least around 60-70% of SSRose Black.

And the difference in Zamasu was his immortality, no comment was made on his power.

God ki in base is a headcanon

Everything is headcanon until officially stated.

So, what was that gold Super Saiyan form that Goku used to fight Beerus and why can't use used that anymore? And why was that form of Super Saiyan so strong with no god ki if god base is only equal to Super Saiyan God because it is using god ki.

You can't say logical deduction when no one in the show comments about Goku's base form doing such a massive jump in power. Not even an one word comment. Hit thinks Goku is being stupid for not transforming, yet he should be able to sense that Goku's ki getting a massive increase compared to his other transformed states. And are we're using really Dragon Ball Heroes as a source? Not even Xenoverse used this Saiyan Beyond God thing.

You also can't claim logical deduction when the series show again and again that god ki can't be sense unless you're at a certain level. If Goku had any kind of god ki in his base form, he shouldn't be sense, period.

Black was clearly stun and once Trunks kicked him into that building, he never touched Black again and performed worse the next time they fought.

That is what you think because Goku touched his ki, was stunned, and say something was different. As far as we know, it could be because it's a different Zamasu then the one he fought. Even then, Future Zamasu is 17 years older than Present Zamasu, so of course he got stronger. Compare Goku from 17 years ago. Hell, compared Freeza from four months ago.

[TheMikado]

Even though I do think there should be two bases there aren't in the anime and even if there were the scenario makes zero sense why would Goku start at his God base and then DOWN to a form that's 1/1000th of that?

Anyway, this is a example of my issue with Super. I don't see how something can be so ambiguously written to where you have this level of differing opinions of merely what events actually transpired.

My theory only applies to the anime, not the manga. There's only one base in the manga which is why I have a problem with it.

I think you may be confused, the anime only has one base, not the manga. In the anime there's no way to access God ki except through SSB.

[LightBing]

Based on the latest manga chapter, I'm assuming Vegeta maintained his Mutated SSJ2 used against Beerus in the BoG. I took a look at the manga and he doesn't even lose the form, Goku just shows up before Beerus kills everyone. I guess this makes Vegeta have a unique form, compared to Goku who has two: SSJ3 and SSJG. Taking into account Toyotarõ modus operandi, this scenario doesn't seem that far fetched.

Here's the current scale in the manga:
Beerus - 100
Super Saiyan Blue (Goku and Vegeta) - 40
Hit (Full Power) - 35
Super Saiyan God (Goku) - 30
Mutated SSJ2 (Vegeta) - 9
SSJ Black - 8
Base Black - 3
SSJ3 (Goku) - 1
Mastered SSJ2 (Future Trunks) - 1
Regular SSJ2 - 0,5

Note that this is me going by memory. It's superficial stuff, so how much weaker everyone is compared to Beerus might be way off. Once the manga arc finishes, I plan to do a better and precise list.
Thoughts?

[HeroR]

Based on the latest manga chapter, I'm assuming Vegeta maintained his Mutated SSJ2 used against Beerus in the BoG. I took a look at the manga and he doesn't even lose the form, Goku just shows up before Beerus kills everyone. I guess this makes Vegeta have a unique form, compared to Goku who has two: SSJ3 and SSJG. Taking into account Toyotarõ modus operandi, this scenario doesn't seem that far fetched.

Here's the current scale in the manga:
Beerus - 100
Super Saiyan Blue (Goku and Vegeta) - 40
Hit (Full Power) - 35
Super Saiyan God (Goku) - 30
Mutated SSJ2 (Vegeta) - 9
SSJ Black - 8
Base Black - 3
SSJ3 (Goku) - 1
Mastered SSJ2 (Future Trunks) - 1
Regular SSJ2 - 0,5

Note that this is me going by memory. It's superficial stuff, so how much weaker everyone is compared to Beerus might be way off. Once the manga arc finishes, I plan to do a better and precise list.
Thoughts?

Shouldn't Super Saiyan 3 Goku be more than a 1 if regular Super Saiyan 2 is a .5 if we account for the 4x multiplier? Plus, Base Black to Super Saiyan should be more than a 3 to a 9. Also, if Hit a 35 and regular Super Saiyan 2 is a .5, how did Super Saiyan Goku gets blows on Hit. The power different between base Black and Super Saiyan God seems a bit too large giving that I think Trunks said Black was within that range in the manga. Could be wrong.

[Speedster]

So in the anime I guess base Goku is close to full power SSB Vegeta then by the same logic...

Base Goku Vs Hit is in the manga too. However, you could say that Hit wasn’t taking Goku seriously at all and it was all about Goku claiming he could beat tokitobashi. Hit used as a result as much power just to cause pain but not kill him. However, once Goku figured out how to counter tokitobashi and turned SSJ1, Hit was very clearly trying. He may had not powered to 100% but whatever suppressed level was at, he was using all of it. What is more important is that this level should had been at least the same he used when he beat 10% SSB Vegeta. Don't forget that 10% SSB Vegeta cannot be stronger than this suppressed Hit - Tokitabashi wouldn’t work on him otherwise. So the bottom line is that in the manga SSJ1 indeed was supposed to be 10% of SSB. Trying to logically fit the 5 transformations is that 10x gap would be something like this:

SSJ1=1
SSJ2=2
SSJ3=3.5
SSJG=7.25
SSJB=10

That was roughly what Toyataro was going with. But then he fucked up with this non-sense:
SSJ2 Vegeta>SSJ2 Black>>base Black>SSJ3Goku=SSJ2 Trunks>SSJ2 Goku/SSJ2 Vegeta.

Even if we say that SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Goku due to the mutated form it still doesn't add up. In the above scale base Black needs to be a 4. Black turning SSJ2 from base would be at least a 2.5x multiplier making him equal to SSB. So SSJ2 Vegeta being stronger than SSJ2 Black is non-sense as he would require to be stronger than his SSB form in his SSJ2 form! No matter how you slice it and how you tweak the mutlipliers, SSJ2 Vegeta would not only need to be stronger than SSJ2/3 Goku but also than SSG Goku which is certainly not the case as mutated SSJ2<SSG. So yeah Toyotaro fucked up and there is no way round it this time unless you resort to some very twisted, logic-bending headcanons.

[LightBing]

Shouldn't Super Saiyan 3 Goku be more than a 1 if regular Super Saiyan 2 is a .5 if we account for the 4x multiplier? Plus, Base Black to Super Saiyan should be more than a 3 to a 9. Also, if Hit a 35 and regular Super Saiyan 2 is a .5, how did Super Saiyan Goku gets blows on Hit. The power different between base Black and Super Saiyan God seems a bit too large giving that I think Trunks said Black was within that range in the manga. Could be wrong.

You're probably right regarding SSJ3 Goku. Although I don't use the guides multipliers, going by the Boo Arc that should be difference, more or less. Why 3 to 9? That's full power Hit who was confident he could beat SSJG Goku with the help of his time-skip. I actually should downgrade him to a 28 or 29, since he specifically says he'll use the time-skip technique so he should be weaker than SSJG.
I don't remember Trunks saying that about Black in the manga. This chapter he said Black initially needed SSJ to beat him, so I doubt he powered up that much just from fighting Trunks.

[Noah]

Why people are still sticking with multipliers? Do they really believe that either Toriyama or Toyotaro remembers that SSJ3 is 400x Base?

[ZombieVito]

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

What? Only SSG Goku was stated to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.

Nope. Hit is stronger or at worst equal to 10% SSB Vegeta since he was affected by the Time Skip.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Why people are still sticking with multipliers? Do they really believe that either Toriyama or Toyotaro remembers that SSJ3 is 400x Base?

Toriyama I can understand, but Toyotaro should definitely know.

Anyway, what if Black went back in time and had his potential unlocked by Guru?

[Noah]

Toriyama I can understand, but Toyotaro should definitely know.

Anyway, what if Black went back in time and had his potential unlocked by Guru?

Well, as said many times, Toyotaro is not really a hardcore fan like us, so he probably don't know about guide multipliers beyond SSJ, so he may think SSJ2 is 4x Base and SSJ3 is 8x for example.

Also wrong thread, mate: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30808

[TheUltimateNinja]

Toriyama I can understand, but Toyotaro should definitely know.

Anyway, what if Black went back in time and had his potential unlocked by Guru?

Well, as said many times, Toyotaro is not really a hardcore fan like us, so he probably don't know about guide multipliers beyond SSJ, so he may think SSJ2 is 4x Base and SSJ3 is 8x for example.

Also wrong thread, mate: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30808

I wanna know how strong he'd be. I'll post it there too, though.

[Duo]

Toriyama I can understand, but Toyotaro should definitely know.

Anyway, what if Black went back in time and had his potential unlocked by Guru?

Well, as said many times, Toyotaro is not really a hardcore fan like us, so he probably don't know about guide multipliers beyond SSJ, so he may think SSJ2 is 4x Base and SSJ3 is 8x for example.

Also wrong thread, mate: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30808

I'm confused. What makes you an authority on the state of Toyotaro's fandom?

He may well know about the Super Exciting Guide multipliers and just not care. I know I wouldn't, given how much adhering to those figures complicates any discussion regarding power scaling in the series.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Toriyama I can understand, but Toyotaro should definitely know.

Anyway, what if Black went back in time and had his potential unlocked by Guru?

Well, as said many times, Toyotaro is not really a hardcore fan like us, so he probably don't know about guide multipliers beyond SSJ, so he may think SSJ2 is 4x Base and SSJ3 is 8x for example.

Also wrong thread, mate: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=30808

I'm confused. What makes you an authority on the state of Toyotaro's fandom?

He may well know about the Super Exciting Guide multipliers and just not care. I know I wouldn't, given how much adhering to those figures complicates any discussion regarding power scaling in the series.

I personally dislike the 400x multiplier as well, I think 200x fits what we see in the series better.

[Noah]

I'm confused. What makes you an authority on the state of Toyotaro's fandom?

Read the last chapter and you'll know what I'm talking about. He's a mediocre writer that couldn't handle the last two arcs well and screwed the only thing the manga had over the anime: the power scaling.

[TheMikado]

I'm confused. What makes you an authority on the state of Toyotaro's fandom?

Read the last chapter and you'll know what I'm talking about. He's a mediocre writer that couldn't handle the last two arcs well and screwed the only thing the manga had over the anime: the power scaling.

What? I think this was covered as to why that's not true as of yet.

[Noah]

What? I think this was covered as to why that's not true as of yet.

Herms translated the whole chapter, mate. There's absolutely no explanation why SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than a more powerful (SSJ) Black that could defeat SSJ2 Future Trunks with ease, who was stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Herms translated the whole chapter, mate. There's absolutely no explanation why SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than a more powerful (SSJ) Black that could defeat SSJ2 Future Trunks with ease, who was stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

No explanation on how the Hit fight was even possible either. Apparently Vegeta could just go SSJ2 and job him at any time.

[TheMikado]

Herms translated the whole chapter, mate. There's absolutely no explanation why SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than a more powerful (SSJ) Black that could defeat SSJ2 Future Trunks with ease, who was stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

No explanation on how the Hit fight was even possible either. Apparently Vegeta could just go SSJ2 and job him at any time.

I think we already established you were just plain wrong about Hit because the same sequence happens in the anime and the same explanation is given.

As far as the translation, the translation specifically in universe exposition through Trunks states that something is wrong and that Black is actually stronger now. Trunks in unverse is stating what everyone is saying is that Vegeta should not be doing so well against Black. If read in context is appears to be setting it up as a mystery which may be explained in the next chapter but who knows. The point is there was repeated effort to point out that SSJ2 Vegeta beating up SSJ Black doesn't make sense in universe given what we know about power levels. Or did you not read the full translation?

[brett wheeler]

Power scaling in the anime problems come from not knowing where base geku/vegeta are and not knowing how much stronger beerus is than ssb goku and vegeta witch isnt as big a deal as people think just a little aggravating. The manga was pretty straight forward till recently as far as i could tell, ssj goku vs hit was weird but explained already by the fact hit was holding back. Piccolo vs frost is explainable by the fact piccolo was training so he's probably stronger now at the least close to base goku/vegeta who are around ssj3 gokubuu saga imo in the manga, sp piccolo is about a ssj2.5 goku buu saga goku lvl. Basically nothing else was wrong its not as bad as people think just hard to get sometimes

But we do have an idea of where Goku and Vegeta's base forms stand because we say Copy Vegeta, who has the same power as normal Vegeta, no sells hit from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. The series never said Gotenks got weaker, so we can assumed that he's about as strong as he was during the Buu Saga. Even before then, we knew Goku's base form was stronger than his Super Saiyan 3 at the beginning of the series since base form Goku took hits from Beerus while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got one-shotted.

Most of the debate about base forms Goku and Vegeta mostly centers around if they have two base forms.

Beerus is simply as strong as the plot demands since Toriyama doesn't want Goku and Vegeta to surpass him at this moment. So any gains Goku and Vegeta makes as individuals will always be weaker than Beerus until stated otherwise.

I know anime wise they are above ssj3 gotenks I put base goku and vegeta from the anime to at the least be about ssj vegito lvl more than strong enough to destroy ssj3 gotenks. Manga base goku and vegeta I dont think are quite as strong as anime base goku and vegeta but still quite powerful. Beerus is another matter yea he is only as powerful as plot demands but for power scaling purposes its hard to scale him because at the rate its giong beerus used less than 1% of his strength to fight ssg goku and that makes very little sense cause he was impressed by ssg looked to be trying at least a little so for a power scaler beerus makes no damn sense.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Herms translated the whole chapter, mate. There's absolutely no explanation why SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than a more powerful (SSJ) Black that could defeat SSJ2 Future Trunks with ease, who was stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

No explanation on how the Hit fight was even possible either. Apparently Vegeta could just go SSJ2 and job him at any time.

I think we already established you were just plain wrong about Hit because the same sequence happens in the anime and the same explanation is given.

As far as the translation, the translation specifically in universe exposition through Trunks states that something is wrong and that Black is actually stronger now. Trunks in unverse is stating what everyone is saying is that Vegeta should not be doing so well against Black. If read in context is appears to be setting it up as a mystery which may be explained in the next chapter but who knows. The point is there was repeated effort to point out that SSJ2 Vegeta beating up SSJ Black doesn't make sense in universe given what we know about power levels. Or did you not read the full translation?

We've already established that anyone who knows basic math can see the problem here. SSJ Goku already proved himself to be level with 10% of SSBlue Vegeta when he pushed Hit much harder than Vegeta did and made him actually try. You can use the excuse that he saw through Hit's timeskip, but that wouldn't matter if he didn't have the speed and strength to keep up with Hit who we know is stronger than 10% of SSBlue Vegeta, and Hit was very clearly trying his best against SSJ Goku.

SSJ3 is 8x that, or 80% of SSBlue Vegeta, and SSJ2 Trunks is around the same level. Trunks was destroyed easily by Black, therefore Black is even stronger than this. Then SSJ2 Vegeta comes in and dominates Base Black, which places him far above SSJ3 Goku which would place him above his own SSBlue. Even ignoring Black's transformation this makes no sense.