Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

The problem begins when SSR Black is supposed to be on the same tier as SSB Goku and Vegeta, that's just impossible now.

Black transforming into a regular Super Saiyan fucked everything up. Unless of course SSR Black is really thousands of times stronger than SSB but that will never happen.

I think Goku and Vegeta will get big power ups, much like they did in the anime, to compete with Zamasu-Goku. It wouldn't even be more drastic than the anime really, where base Zamasu-Goku literally did not notice being attacked by SSB Vegeta, yet one power-up later SSB Vegeta is tooling that same guy's SSR form. So by the end of the arc, base Goku will be maybe moderately weaker than base Black, who was stated to be above SS3 Goku. This would leave SSB Goku on about the same level as SSR Zamasu-Goku, and base Goku as powerful as SS3 Goku from the Buu arc.

That would be consistent with the implication of Pure Buu >= base Goku at the end of the manga too.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The problem begins when SSR Black is supposed to be on the same tier as SSB Goku and Vegeta, that's just impossible now.

Black transforming into a regular Super Saiyan fucked everything up. Unless of course SSR Black is really thousands of times stronger than SSB but that will never happen.

I think Goku and Vegeta will get big power ups, much like they did in the anime, to compete with Zamasu-Goku. It wouldn't even be more drastic than the anime really, where base Zamasu-Goku literally did not notice being attacked by SSB Vegeta, yet one power-up later SSB Vegeta is tooling that same guy's SSR form. So by the end of the arc, base Goku will be maybe moderately weaker than base Black, who was stated to be above SS3 Goku. This would leave SSB Goku on about the same level as SSR Zamasu-Goku, and base Goku as powerful as SS3 Goku from the Buu arc.

That would be consistent with the implication of Pure Buu >= base Goku at the end of the manga too.

SSRose isn't that much stronger than Black's base, SSBlue Vegeta was able to catch a punch from him and SSBlue Goku was able to put up a decent fight for a while despite not being rage boosted.

[ekrolo2]

SSRose isn't that much stronger than Black's base, SSBlue Vegeta was able to catch a punch from him and SSBlue Goku was able to put up a decent fight for a while despite not being rage boosted.

Rose is the GT Super Saiyan of DBS.

[TheUltimateNinja]

SSRose isn't that much stronger than Black's base, SSBlue Vegeta was able to catch a punch from him and SSBlue Goku was able to put up a decent fight for a while despite not being rage boosted.

Rose is the GT Super Saiyan of DBS.

Black's Base at that time was most likely his equivalent of SSGod, most people agree that the gap between SSGod and SSBlue isn't very large.

[ekrolo2]

SSRose isn't that much stronger than Black's base, SSBlue Vegeta was able to catch a punch from him and SSBlue Goku was able to put up a decent fight for a while despite not being rage boosted.

Rose is the GT Super Saiyan of DBS.

Black's Base at that time was most likely his equivalent of SSGod, most people agree that the gap between SSGod and SSBlue isn't very large.

Exactly. That's why I doubt Rose is any more than an x5 multiplier at absolute most.

[Hugo Boss]

I think it's pretty obvious that Black adds Goku's power to his own when he transforms, which explains why Super Saiyan Rosé ends up rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. And SS2 Vegeta is implied to have surpassed SS3 Goku, so he being stronger than SS2 Black is impressive but not that big of a deal.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Okay, let's back up and start from square one.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan with god ki that Goku and Vegeta unlocked during their training.

Dragon Ball Super Episode 13 – Goku, Surpass the Super Saiyan God! At around 19:15

Beerus says, "I thought your time was up." *Goku acts confused* "Oh, please! Your Super Saiyan God aura has disappeared." *Goku notices, for the first time, the red aura is gone and he is a regular Super Saiyan* "You were slow to notice!"

Goku says, "Huh? When did that ... But I don't feel like I'm weaker at all. What's goin' on, Beerus sama?"
Beerus replies, "Don't ask me!"
Goku responds, "Ain't you a god?!"
Beerus tries to rationalize what happened, "It appears your Super Saiyan God powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather the power completely fused within your very being. The god's red brilliance is still burning brightly in you like a flame."

Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 – Clash! Frieza Vs Son Goku This Is The Result of My Training! At around 21:04
Frieza comments, "Not bad I'd say."
Goku retorts, "Don't act tough, Frieza. I think I'm pretty strong, if I say so myself."

Frieza says, "Well, you're still just a Super Saiyan after all."
Goku chuckles, "Actually it's a bit different. It's a little confusing and hard to explain, but I'm a Saiyan with the powers of a Super Saiyan God who is a Super Saiyan."


Based on Goku's definition of a blue-haired Saiyan to Frieza, this means that the Episode 13 Super Saiyan form he used against Beerus could also be an SSGSS.
Blue = powers of Red as a Super Saiyan
Outer Space SS = powers of Red as a Super Saiyan

They should be the same form, but are not for some reason. Do you agree with this?

[Speedster]

I have the feeling that Toyotaro had Black receive that serious beat up by Vegeta so that he can gain a massive Zenkai boost. It is not a coincidence that he had Zamasu appearing just in the nick of time to not only save him but heal him too. Toyotaro likes through-backs to the original manga and what better one than having Vegeta beating someone in Goku’s body and then that body receiving a massive Zenkai boost (see Captain Ginyu story). After the Zenkai boost Black will become SSBlue tier either by unlocking SSJR or by just becoming that strong in his SSJ2 form.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I think it's pretty obvious that Black adds Goku's power to his own when he transforms, which explains why Super Saiyan Rosé ends up rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. And SS2 Vegeta is implied to have surpassed SS3 Goku, so he being stronger than SS2 Black is impressive but not that big of a deal.

The problem arises when you consider the Hit fight. We know SSBlue Vegeta at 10% is inferior to Hit as otherwise the timeskip wouldn't work on him. We also know that SSJ Goku was able to put up a splendid fight against Hit. Even if you massively lowball Goku and put him at only 2% - which would make no sense as Hit definitely wouldn't experience so much difficulty in that case - his SSJ3 would end up at 16% and SSJ2 Vegeta would be considerably above that, possibly over 20%, more than twice what he used as SSBlue.

So the question is, why didn't Vegeta just use SSJ2 against Hit? Given that it is far superior to Goku's SSJ3, it may have even allowed him to break the timeskip.

Anyway, I just came up with a theory for the anime: Black can use the power of Goku's SSJ forms without giving any visual indication of doing so. All instances we've seen of him fighting fit perfectly with the power levels of each of Goku's forms.

SSJ3: His first appearance, he easily dominates SSJ2 Trunks and Trunks later tells Goku that Black is just as powerful as his SSJ3.

SSJ2: In the past against Goku, he was exactly even with SSJ2 Goku, Trunks comments that he's weaker than in the future.

SSGod: During their encounter in the future, against SSBlue Vegeta. Having a Base that's a good deal higher than Vegeta, he's able to match his SSBlue using only SSGod.

[ChiefWamsutta]

God ki in base is a headcanon

For the anime, people need to stop thinking of it like a Saiyan Beyond God. We all know that there is no god ki in their Base forms.

Think of it like a Ki-Condensed Base that they practiced with in Whis' Staff. One of the main reasons people didn't like the Two-Base Theory for the anime is because of the idea of god ki in their base forms.

[Bullza]

So going by the translations that Herms did Trunks has fought Black as a Super Saiyan before. Which could mean that Base Black was initially weaker than...say SSJ2 Trunks but then grew stronger since (which he did in the anime).

[TheUltimateNinja]

God ki in base is a headcanon

For the anime, people need to stop thinking of it like a Saiyan Beyond God. We all know that there is no god ki in their Base forms.

Think of it like a Ki-Condensed Base that they practiced with in Whis' Staff. One of the main reasons people didn't like the Two-Base Theory for the anime is because of the idea of god ki in their base forms.

But the whole point of that ki training was for them to learn to use God ki.

[ChiefWamsutta]

God ki in base is a headcanon

For the anime, people need to stop thinking of it like a Saiyan Beyond God. We all know that there is no god ki in their Base forms.

Think of it like a Ki-Condensed Base that they practiced with in Whis' Staff. One of the main reasons people didn't like the Two-Base Theory for the anime is because of the idea of god ki in their base forms.

But the whole point of that ki training was for them to learn to use God ki.

First off, I want to thank you for not flying off the handle at me, haha. Sometimes we all get too heated and pissed off at DBSuper and then we take it out on other community members.

I don't recall that. Basically, I see things as this: When Goku and Vegeta condensed their ki into themselves they got a taste of the blue god ki. The fact that Whis mentions a level for sensing god ki and a level of the gods, made me think SSB was a level to reach. I see it as when they condense their ki into themselves (using their god ki base is another way to explain it), they get closer to the SSB level (the blue god ki emerging level).

I see the Super Trunks form as stronger than this base because it has more blue god ki in its aura. SSB is the threshold. Super Trunks form is very close to it but not all the way there, hence the yellow and blue. Ki-Condensed Base is just barely starting out towards that direction since it only emitting a small bit of blue god ki.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Things are still screwed up big time. SSJ Goku could fight Hit very well in the tournament and the latter was stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta. Now thanks to Black's ability to use the Super Saiyans forms, the gap between SSJ3 and SSB is way over 400 times bigger. That makes Goku's fight with Hit impossible.

What? Only SSG Goku was stated to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.

Nope. Hit is stronger or at worst equal to 10% SSB Vegeta since he was affected by the Time Skip.

Whis said that the opponent has to be weaker or at worst close to Hit in order for Tokitobashi to work. SS Goku was already stronger than Hit, and SSG made him too strong for Hit's Tokitobashi. Furthermore, Whis & Beerus said that Goku surpassed Vegeta only when he turned SSG, so he was still weaker than Vegeta as a SS, and 10% SSB Vegeta was stronger than Hit, but not strong enough to overcome his Tokitobashi.

[Hugo Boss]

I think it's pretty obvious that Black adds Goku's power to his own when he transforms, which explains why Super Saiyan Rosé ends up rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. And SS2 Vegeta is implied to have surpassed SS3 Goku, so he being stronger than SS2 Black is impressive but not that big of a deal.

The problem arises when you consider the Hit fight. We know SSBlue Vegeta at 10% is inferior to Hit as otherwise the timeskip wouldn't work on him. We also know that SSJ Goku was able to put up a splendid fight against Hit. Even if you massively lowball Goku and put him at only 2% - which would make no sense as Hit definitely wouldn't experience so much difficulty in that case - his SSJ3 would end up at 16% and SSJ2 Vegeta would be considerably above that, possibly over 20%, more than twice what he used as SSBlue.

So the question is, why didn't Vegeta just use SSJ2 against Hit? Given that it is far superior to Goku's SSJ3, it may have even allowed him to break the timeskip.

It's all fine with Hit too. His fighting style is severely restrained by not using his true skills, so it doesn't matter if Goku can keep up with him in a weaker form. Actually, SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta are still much weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, even at 10%, which explains why Vegeta used SSB a second time and why Hit thought tokitobashi would work also on SSG Goku.

[ZombieVito]

The problem begins when SSR Black is supposed to be on the same tier as SSB Goku and Vegeta, that's just impossible now.

Black transforming into a regular Super Saiyan fucked everything up. Unless of course SSR Black is really thousands of times stronger than SSB but that will never happen.

I think Goku and Vegeta will get big power ups, much like they did in the anime, to compete with Zamasu-Goku. It wouldn't even be more drastic than the anime really, where base Zamasu-Goku literally did not notice being attacked by SSB Vegeta, yet one power-up later SSB Vegeta is tooling that same guy's SSR form. So by the end of the arc, base Goku will be maybe moderately weaker than base Black, who was stated to be above SS3 Goku. This would leave SSB Goku on about the same level as SSR Zamasu-Goku, and base Goku as powerful as SS3 Goku from the Buu arc.

That would be consistent with the implication of Pure Buu >= base Goku at the end of the manga too.

Maybe. We will have to wait and see but I seriously doubt they will grow hundreds of times stronger next chapter.

What? Only SSG Goku was stated to be stronger than 10% SSB Vegeta.

Nope. Hit is stronger or at worst equal to 10% SSB Vegeta since he was affected by the Time Skip.

Whis said that the opponent has to be weaker or at worst close to Hit in order for Tokitobashi to work. SS Goku was already stronger than Hit, and SSG made him too strong for Hit's Tokitobashi. Furthermore, Whis & Beerus said that Goku surpassed Vegeta only when he turned SSG, so he was still weaker than Vegeta as a SS, and 10% SSB Vegeta was stronger than Hit, but not strong enough to overcome his Tokitobashi.

My point still stands, all 3 are in the same tier, which is impossible now with the enormous gap created by SSJ Black.

[RandomGuy96]

The problem begins when SSR Black is supposed to be on the same tier as SSB Goku and Vegeta, that's just impossible now.

Black transforming into a regular Super Saiyan fucked everything up. Unless of course SSR Black is really thousands of times stronger than SSB but that will never happen.

I think Goku and Vegeta will get big power ups, much like they did in the anime, to compete with Zamasu-Goku. It wouldn't even be more drastic than the anime really, where base Zamasu-Goku literally did not notice being attacked by SSB Vegeta, yet one power-up later SSB Vegeta is tooling that same guy's SSR form. So by the end of the arc, base Goku will be maybe moderately weaker than base Black, who was stated to be above SS3 Goku. This would leave SSB Goku on about the same level as SSR Zamasu-Goku, and base Goku as powerful as SS3 Goku from the Buu arc.

That would be consistent with the implication of Pure Buu >= base Goku at the end of the manga too.

Maybe. We will have to wait and see but I seriously doubt they will grow hundreds of times stronger next chapter.

If it's even going along the same general path as the anime, then they're going to get a massive but largely unquantified power-up.

[HeroR]

Okay, let's back up and start from square one.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan with god ki that Goku and Vegeta unlocked during their training.

Dragon Ball Super Episode 13 – Goku, Surpass the Super Saiyan God! At around 19:15

Beerus says, "I thought your time was up." *Goku acts confused* "Oh, please! Your Super Saiyan God aura has disappeared." *Goku notices, for the first time, the red aura is gone and he is a regular Super Saiyan* "You were slow to notice!"

Goku says, "Huh? When did that ... But I don't feel like I'm weaker at all. What's goin' on, Beerus sama?"
Beerus replies, "Don't ask me!"
Goku responds, "Ain't you a god?!"
Beerus tries to rationalize what happened, "It appears your Super Saiyan God powers did not disappear due to some time limit. Rather the power completely fused within your very being. The god's red brilliance is still burning brightly in you like a flame."

Dragon Ball Super Episode 24 – Clash! Frieza Vs Son Goku This Is The Result of My Training! At around 21:04
Frieza comments, "Not bad I'd say."
Goku retorts, "Don't act tough, Frieza. I think I'm pretty strong, if I say so myself."

Frieza says, "Well, you're still just a Super Saiyan after all."
Goku chuckles, "Actually it's a bit different. It's a little confusing and hard to explain, but I'm a Saiyan with the powers of a Super Saiyan God who is a Super Saiyan."


Based on Goku's definition of a blue-haired Saiyan to Frieza, this means that the Episode 13 Super Saiyan form he used against Beerus could also be an SSGSS.
Blue = powers of Red as a Super Saiyan
Outer Space SS = powers of Red as a Super Saiyan

They should be the same form, but are not for some reason. Do you agree with this?

Goku kept the power of godhood after he lost Super Saiyan God. That was made clear by everyone since Goku could be sense again and both Beerus and Whis said Goku wasn't a god anymore. Despite this, his golden hair form was just as strong as Super Saiyan God. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is Super Saiyan with god ki infused in it, making it even stronger. This is confirmed because everyone stated that they couldn't sense Goku anymore and King Kai is shocked that Goku became a Super Saiyan God again. This wouldn't be the case if Super Saiyan Goku from the end of the Beerus fight was Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

God ki in base is a headcanon

For the anime, people need to stop thinking of it like a Saiyan Beyond God. We all know that there is no god ki in their Base forms.

Think of it like a Ki-Condensed Base that they practiced with in Whis' Staff. One of the main reasons people didn't like the Two-Base Theory for the anime is because of the idea of god ki in their base forms.

No, the main reason why people don't believe in the two-base theory is because it was never implied that Goku and Vegeta had two base forms. Goku looks exactly the same as he was when he fought Frost in base form as he did when he fought Hit in base form and no comment was made that his base form jumped in power.

[GodKaio-Ken]

The problem begins when SSR Black is supposed to be on the same tier as SSB Goku and Vegeta, that's just impossible now.

Black transforming into a regular Super Saiyan fucked everything up. Unless of course SSR Black is really thousands of times stronger than SSB but that will never happen.

I think Goku and Vegeta will get big power ups, much like they did in the anime, to compete with Zamasu-Goku. It wouldn't even be more drastic than the anime really, where base Zamasu-Goku literally did not notice being attacked by SSB Vegeta, yet one power-up later SSB Vegeta is tooling that same guy's SSR form. So by the end of the arc, base Goku will be maybe moderately weaker than base Black, who was stated to be above SS3 Goku. This would leave SSB Goku on about the same level as SSR Zamasu-Goku, and base Goku as powerful as SS3 Goku from the Buu arc.

That would be consistent with the implication of Pure Buu >= base Goku at the end of the manga too.

SSRose isn't that much stronger than Black's base, SSBlue Vegeta was able to catch a punch from him and SSBlue Goku was able to put up a decent fight for a while despite not being rage boosted.

Wait what? The guy was able to use a scythe to split open reality and didn't even know wtf he did because the overwhelming power was so new to him.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I think it's pretty obvious that Black adds Goku's power to his own when he transforms, which explains why Super Saiyan Rosé ends up rivaling Super Saiyan Blue. And SS2 Vegeta is implied to have surpassed SS3 Goku, so he being stronger than SS2 Black is impressive but not that big of a deal.

The problem arises when you consider the Hit fight. We know SSBlue Vegeta at 10% is inferior to Hit as otherwise the timeskip wouldn't work on him. We also know that SSJ Goku was able to put up a splendid fight against Hit. Even if you massively lowball Goku and put him at only 2% - which would make no sense as Hit definitely wouldn't experience so much difficulty in that case - his SSJ3 would end up at 16% and SSJ2 Vegeta would be considerably above that, possibly over 20%, more than twice what he used as SSBlue.

So the question is, why didn't Vegeta just use SSJ2 against Hit? Given that it is far superior to Goku's SSJ3, it may have even allowed him to break the timeskip.

It's all fine with Hit too. His fighting style is severely restrained by not using his true skills, so it doesn't matter if Goku can keep up with him in a weaker form. Actually, SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta are still much weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, even at 10%, which explains why Vegeta used SSB a second time and why Hit thought tokitobashi would work also on SSG Goku.

There's no reason he shouldn't be able to knock Goku out with a single blow even without the timeskip if he was that much stronger. Except in rare cases like Grade 3, being massively more powerful also gives you far greater speed.

And no character has ever experienced issues with non-lethally taking down someone much weaker than them. For example, the androids annihilated the SSJs who were at least around 70-80% of them, Goku easily one-shotted Recoome who was around half his strength & Vegeta knocked Goku out with a sneak attack despite being slightly weaker.

He doesn't even have to use any skill, just one punch would do the job as it has always done in cases of huge gaps in power.