Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

Yeah, Daizenshuu 7 outright states that Kaioshin possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo". I'd personally place Kaioshin on the very low end of SSJ2 tier, as he was able to paralyse SSJ2 Adult Gohan and survived a savage beating from Pre-Split Majin Boo.

That would make him stronger than Dabra, which doesn't align. He survived a beating from Boo while Gohan was done in one hit, Boo was playing with him. I usually put him at SSJ Goku Cell Games level.

[ZombieVito]

So how strong is Supreme Kai? Is it true the Daizenshuu says he has strenght that far surpasses Piccolo's?

Yeah, Daizenshuu 7 outright states that Kaioshin possesses strength "far superior to the Super Namekian Piccolo". I'd personally place Kaioshin on the very low end of SSJ2 tier, as he was able to paralyse SSJ2 Adult Gohan and survived a savage beating from Pre-Split Majin Boo.

That would make Kaioshin too close to Dabra. Goku also scared him away with just regular Super Saiyan.

[Bullza]

So he'd be in between Piccolo and Super Saiyan Goku?

[ekrolo2]

Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo but weaker than Boo-era SS Goku. I'd personally put him anywhere from CG SS Goku to the Cell who was holding back aginst Gohan before his SS2 transformation.

[ahill1]

How do you see Cell's line of "What if I go all out, in speed at least?" ? Does he increase just his speed, or his power as well? Also, did he use full speed, or just the speed his current power output allowed him?

I think the latter question is simpler. Cell probably used only the speed that matched his suppressed powers.

But how about the former one? Based on the wording, it seems Cell just increased his speed, that is, there was no power up, he just matches the speed with what it should be. So:

Option A
Cell's chi: 100
~Power : 100
~Speed : 83
~Real speed : 100

And, therefore, gets no power up from the speed increase. That seems likely based on the wording, but the problem is that would put Cell's power way too much ahead of Goku's power, which doesn't seem implied. So we also got another option:

Option B
Cell's chi: 83
~Power : 83
~Speed : 83
~Speed increase : 100
~Power increase : 100
~Now current chi goes to : 100

That seems to be batter matched with Goku vs Cell, but it's unlikely according to the wording.


Thoughts?

[Sailor Haumea]

Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo but weaker than Boo-era SS Goku. I'd personally put him anywhere from CG SS Goku to the Cell who was holding back aginst Gohan before his SS2 transformation.

His name is Shin...

[Kaboom]

So how strong is Supreme Kai? Is it true the Daizenshuu says he has strength that far surpasses Piccolo's?

Yep, Piccolo says so in a somewhat roundabout way in the series, but the various guidebooks outright confirm that Kaioshin is indeed significantly stronger than Piccolo. Not really any room left for uncertainty there.

So he'd be in between Piccolo and Super Saiyan Goku?

Either that or between Piccolo and Dabra, depending on whether or not you think the adult Saiyans are already stronger than the latter without SS2.

How do you see Cell's line of "What if I go all out, in speed at least?" ? Does he increase just his speed, or his power as well? Also, did he use full speed, or just the speed his current power output allowed him?

I don't usually give it much thought, but I guess maybe he didn't tap into more power, and rather just temporarily redistributed what he was already using into his speed. So something like...

KI: 100
-- Strength: 100
-- Defense: 100
-- Speed: 100

...Where his PL is 100 and all his "stats" are operating evenly at that level, but then he then turned that into...

KI: 100
-- Strength: 75
-- Defense: 75
-- Speed: 150

...Where he intentionally pushed his energy into speed at the expense of his strength and defense. Which come to think of it, might lend itself well to why Cell's blows didn't hurt Gohan all that much when he caught him. Anyhoo, I think something along these lines works best, since there was no change noted in Cell's actual power level. Either this, or he tapped into his full power in some quick, subtle way that afforded him a burst in speed with no other change.

His name is Shin...

I'm sure most people are aware of that by now. If the rolly-eyes were intended to express exasperation at folks not exclusively switching to the newly-revealed name... please don't.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So how strong is Supreme Kai? Is it true the Daizenshuu says he has strenght that far surpasses Piccolo's?

Yep, Daizenshuu (7, IIRC) said Supreme Kai was way stronger than Piccolo, and Piccolo said they were "dimensions apart". Supreme Kai also was able to hold SSJ2 Teen Gohan and hold Buu much better than Gohan and Dabura, but DBS confirmed he is weaker than Dabura. So, he is somewhere between Piccolo and Dabura, with his magic powers putting him at Dabura's level (But Dabura's magic powers still above Supreme Kai).

[ahill1]

Regarding Cell's discussion, I'd like to go with option A, which is like:

Goku FPSSJ : 80
Gohan FPSSJ : 100

Cell (vs Goku)
~Power : 100
~Speed : 90

Cell (vs Gohan)
~Power : 100
~Speed : 100

But I find two problems with it:

1) If Cell only increased his speed to match his current power output, then his power would be too much ahead Goku, moreso than the fight suggests.

2) Cell said he'd go all out, in speed at least, clearly indicating he'd not go all out in power. If so, how'd speed be = power?

So it lets me another option:

Goku FPSSJ : 80
Gohan FPSSJ
~power : 90
~speed : 100

Cell (vs Goku)
~power : 90
~speed : 90

Cell (vs Gohan)
~power : 90
~speed : 100

But it also has its problems:

1) This would mean Gohan's speed and power are unbalanced;
2) This would also mean Cell can increase his speed past the level of his power, which doesn't make sense. I mean, how do you take speed from nowhere?

What a headache lol.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How strong do you guys have Goten, Trunks and Gotenks (Pre and post HTC)? They powers confuses me. Goten and Trunks as SSJs scared 18 with a ki blast, but some people still but they under her, and sometimes under the SSJs from Android arc. Gotenks bugs me too, people put him at SSJ3 Goku because Goku said to Buu Gotenks stronger than him, but it was just a guess! And why some people put his post HTC base at Majin Vegeta? This is insanely powerful!

[Desassina]

I still have them weaker than both androids. Goku and the others considered them a good match for Abo and Kado, when they were around Freeza, so they ought to be strong as Super Saiyans, but not enough to surpass the threat that came after him: the androids. Since full power SSJ was not a thing in the Boo saga, you had better say that their power went from 50 to 100 times their base strength, like this:

Base Goten/Trunks - 0.08
SSJ Goten/Trunks - 4

post-Room of Spirit and Time

Base Goten/Trunks - 0.08
SSJ Goten/Trunks - 8

When Freeza should be around 3.125 on Namek (i.e. stronger than a base Saiyan at his lowest level for this scale, which is 1). Ok, the actual numbers:

Base Goten/Trunks - 3'072'000
Base Goku/Vegeta - 38'400'000
Namek 100% Freeza - 120'000'000
SSJ Goten/Trunks - 153'600'000
post-RoSaT SSJ - 307'200'000
Android 18 - 384'000'000
Piccolo - 960'000'000

[Rubens]

Personally, I think both of them are around "Namek" ssj Goku at the beginning of Boo arc, at the world tournament they're close to android arc super saiyans (ssj Goku, Vegeta & Trunks when they fought androids 17/18/19/20) and, after the training inside the RoSaT, I believe they surpassed that level, but were still weaker than Cell arc super saiyans - in other words, after training, they should be around #18's level or maybe a bit stronger. As for ssj Gotenks, when he first appears I think he's at ssj2 level or close at least, since he believed he could beat fat Boo like that; after training in the RoSaT he should be, as a super saiyan, slightly stronger than fat majin Boo. Gotenks ssj3 version appears to be weaker, or rather it seems to provide a lesser boost to him than Goku's ssj3: from my point of view, ssj3 Gotenks is stronger than "supressed" ssj3 Goku (and I say supressed because I assume Goku couldn't use his full power during the entire arc) but still weaker than a hypothetical ssj3 Goku at full power.

The reason why I think 18 was scared of Trunks's ki blast is because she isn't expecting him to actually launch an attack that powerful in a tournament, jeopardizing an audience, and taking a strong attack like that head on would have been dangerous for her even considering Trunks was probably weaker. Think of it a bit like when Vegeta used the final flash against Cell.

[LightBing]

The reason why I think 18 was scared of Trunks's ki blast is because she isn't expecting him to actually launch an attack that powerful in a tournament, jeopardizing an audience, and taking a strong attack like that head on would have been dangerous for her even considering Trunks was probably weaker. Think of it a bit like when Vegeta used the final flash against Cell.

Goten even tells Trunks to hold back, twice! Not to hold back because of the crowd but because of #18. Besides Trunks being able to punch Vegeta and Goten being an appropriate training partner for Gohan.
At a minimum they are SSJ Grade II Vegeta level.

[hellobooboo14]

Okay, just made a new list for the Future Trunks Arc, tell me what you guys think. 1 unit = SSG Goku.

Future Trunks Arc:
SSG Goku (BoG): 1
Beerus: 100
SSBlue Goku: 2.8
SSBlue Vegeta: 2.7
SSRose Black: 3.2
Future Zamasu: 2.2
SSJ2 Trunks: 2
SSBlue Goku (Rage boost): 3.5
Super Trunks: 3
SSRose Black (Zenkai): 3.6
Vegeta (Post RoSAT Rage boost): 4
SSBlue Goku: 4
SSRose Black (Scimitar): 4.2
SSRose Black (Scythe): 4.8
Merged Zamasu (Initial): 6
SSBlue Vegeta: 3.5
Arms Breaking Kamehameha: 7
SSBlue Goku (Kaioken): 8
Merged Zamasu: 60
Corrupted Zamasu (Light of Justice): 70
SSBlue Vegetto: 75
Power Weighted Zamasu: 75
Unstable Zamasu (Battered): 7.5
Spirit Trunks: 7.5

I disagree with Vegetto being above merged Zamasu... the only time Vegetto had a clear advantage was when Zamasu increased his size (like Cell). At the start when both had power and speed, they were very close with the advantage slightly going to Zamasu as he was able to cause Vegetto to spit out blood.

Merged Zamasu: 100
Vegetto Blue: 98

100 & 98 are too high, they can't be that close to Beerus. Also, Vegetto had a clear advantage before Zamasu buffed up as well, he was able to pound Zamasu into the ground and was grinding his face in. And Zamasu made Vegetto cough blood up with a surprise attack, he suddenly sucker punched him during their fist clash.

I wasn't comparing them to Beerus. 100 to 98 seems a resonable gap considering Zamasu got the better of Vegetto of two occassions.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I disagree with Vegetto being above merged Zamasu... the only time Vegetto had a clear advantage was when Zamasu increased his size (like Cell). At the start when both had power and speed, they were very close with the advantage slightly going to Zamasu as he was able to cause Vegetto to spit out blood.

Merged Zamasu: 100
Vegetto Blue: 98

100 & 98 are too high, they can't be that close to Beerus. Also, Vegetto had a clear advantage before Zamasu buffed up as well, he was able to pound Zamasu into the ground and was grinding his face in. And Zamasu made Vegetto cough blood up with a surprise attack, he suddenly sucker punched him during their fist clash.

I wasn't comparing them to Beerus. 100 to 98 seems a resonable gap considering Zamasu got the better of Vegetto of two occassions.

Vegetto maintained the upper hand for the rest of that battle, he came out on top after their first bout and completely dominated Zamasu after he pierced him with his sword.

[Bullza]

When Goku said that Dabura was about the same as Cell was he referring to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell?

[TheUltimateNinja]

When Goku said that Dabura was about the same as Cell was he referring to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell?

Perfect Cell. He dismisses Dabura as a threat and says he'd be simple to beat, and Vegeta has the same attitude. If he was as strong as Super Perfect Cell he'd definitely be a threat even for a Super Saiyan 2, especially Vegeta as Vegeta is likely slightly weaker than Kid Gohan.

Anyway, what multiplier do you guys have for Frieza's golden form? I go with 2.5x personally.

[ZombieVito]

When Goku said that Dabura was about the same as Cell was he referring to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell?

Perfect Cell.

When Goku said that Dabura was about the same as Cell was he referring to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell?

Perfect Cell. He dismisses Dabura as a threat and says he'd be simple to beat, and Vegeta has the same attitude. If he was as strong as Super Perfect Cell he'd definitely be a threat even for a Super Saiyan 2, especially Vegeta as Vegeta is likely slightly weaker than Kid Gohan.

Anyway, what multiplier do you guys have for Frieza's golden form? I go with 2.5x personally.

25,000 lol.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

When Goku said that Dabura was about the same as Cell was he referring to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell?

Regular Perfect Cell. Goku never saw SPC, and even if Goku sensed him on the Otherworld, he said to Kaioshin Dabura was trash to him and Vegeta, and he even knows Vegeta can turn SSJ2.

Anyway, what multiplier do you guys have for Frieza's golden form? I go with 2.5x personally.

Just that? Lol, i have 75x

[TheUltimateNinja]

Anyway, what multiplier do you guys have for Frieza's golden form? I go with 2.5x personally.

Just that? Lol, i have 75x

I have a 1.5x multiplier from SSGod to SSBlue, and since Frieza went from not too far below Goku to not too far above him, I figure 2.5x is a good multiplier.