Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

The problem arises when you consider the Hit fight. We know SSBlue Vegeta at 10% is inferior to Hit as otherwise the timeskip wouldn't work on him. We also know that SSJ Goku was able to put up a splendid fight against Hit. Even if you massively lowball Goku and put him at only 2% - which would make no sense as Hit definitely wouldn't experience so much difficulty in that case - his SSJ3 would end up at 16% and SSJ2 Vegeta would be considerably above that, possibly over 20%, more than twice what he used as SSBlue.

So the question is, why didn't Vegeta just use SSJ2 against Hit? Given that it is far superior to Goku's SSJ3, it may have even allowed him to break the timeskip.

It's all fine with Hit too. His fighting style is severely restrained by not using his true skills, so it doesn't matter if Goku can keep up with him in a weaker form. Actually, SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta are still much weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, even at 10%, which explains why Vegeta used SSB a second time and why Hit thought tokitobashi would work also on SSG Goku.

There's no reason he shouldn't be able to knock Goku out with a single blow even without the timeskip if he was that much stronger. Except in rare cases like Grade 3, being massively more powerful also gives you far greater speed.

And no character has ever experienced issues with non-lethally taking down someone much weaker than them. For example, the androids annihilated the SSJs who were at least around 70-80% of them, Goku easily one-shotted Recoome who was around half his strength & Vegeta knocked Goku out with a sneak attack despite being slightly weaker.

He doesn't even have to use any skill, just one punch would do the job as it has always done in cases of huge gaps in power.

Then by your logic
Yajarobi > Vegeta
Krillin > Frieza
Tien > Cell

Is this your first time watching Dragonball where weaker characters under specific circumstances can do damage to enemy many many times stronger than them. The specific circumstances was that Goku figured out Hits technique and Hit held back because he didn't transform stop taking things out of context.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It's all fine with Hit too. His fighting style is severely restrained by not using his true skills, so it doesn't matter if Goku can keep up with him in a weaker form. Actually, SS3 Goku and SS2 Vegeta are still much weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, even at 10%, which explains why Vegeta used SSB a second time and why Hit thought tokitobashi would work also on SSG Goku.

There's no reason he shouldn't be able to knock Goku out with a single blow even without the timeskip if he was that much stronger. Except in rare cases like Grade 3, being massively more powerful also gives you far greater speed.

And no character has ever experienced issues with non-lethally taking down someone much weaker than them. For example, the androids annihilated the SSJs who were at least around 70-80% of them, Goku easily one-shotted Recoome who was around half his strength & Vegeta knocked Goku out with a sneak attack despite being slightly weaker.

He doesn't even have to use any skill, just one punch would do the job as it has always done in cases of huge gaps in power.

Then by your logic
Yajarobi > Vegeta
Krillin > Frieza
Tien > Cell

Is this your first time watching Dragonball where weaker characters under specific circumstances can do damage to enemy many many times stronger than them. The specific circumstances was that Goku figured out Hits technique and Hit held back because he didn't transform stop taking things out of context.

None of your examples were able to fight evenly with their opponents, Yajirobe caught Vegeta off guard for one moment and Kuririn and Tenshinhan both used specialized techniques that ultimately failed to accomplish much. All of them would have been crushed by their opponents if they didn't have allies close by to bail them out.

And Hit used the same power level against Goku that he did against Vegeta, he was pushed to his natural limit by SSJ Goku. Once Goku went SSGod Hit was forced to push himself to the extent that his body wouldn't even last 1 minute and he could only do the timeskip one more time.

If Goku was weaker than Hit, it wouldn't even matter if he blocked Hit's attacks as they'd easily break through his defense. The Z fighters' fight against the androids is a great example of this, especially Vegeta's fight against 18.

[TheMikado]

There's no reason he shouldn't be able to knock Goku out with a single blow even without the timeskip if he was that much stronger. Except in rare cases like Grade 3, being massively more powerful also gives you far greater speed.

And no character has ever experienced issues with non-lethally taking down someone much weaker than them. For example, the androids annihilated the SSJs who were at least around 70-80% of them, Goku easily one-shotted Recoome who was around half his strength & Vegeta knocked Goku out with a sneak attack despite being slightly weaker.

He doesn't even have to use any skill, just one punch would do the job as it has always done in cases of huge gaps in power.

Then by your logic
Yajarobi > Vegeta
Krillin > Frieza
Tien > Cell

Is this your first time watching Dragonball where weaker characters under specific circumstances can do damage to enemy many many times stronger than them. The specific circumstances was that Goku figured out Hits technique and Hit held back because he didn't transform stop taking things out of context.

None of your examples were able to fight evenly with their opponents, Yajirobe caught Vegeta off guard for one moment and Kuririn and Tenshinhan both used specialized techniques that ultimately failed to accomplish much. All of them would have been crushed by their opponents if they didn't have allies close by to bail them out.

And Hit used the same power level against Goku that he did against Vegeta, he was pushed to his natural limit by SSJ Goku. Once Goku went SSGod Hit was forced to push himself to the extent that his body wouldn't even last 1 minute and he could only do the timeskip one more time.

If Goku was weaker than Hit, it wouldn't even matter if he blocked Hit's attacks as they'd easily break through his defense. The Z fighters' fight against the androids is a great example of this, especially Vegeta's fight against 18.

So I see the flaw in your logic, you assume:

1) Goku was able to fit "on par" with Hit
2) That Hit used his same level of power against Vegeta

Neither of which are shown or stated, further Goku did not use God in the anime so how is Base Goku at full power Vegeta SSB levels? The 10% is manga only and the anime gives no indication that Vegeta powered down at all.

You are using a lot of head canon and assumptions which are not in the plot to justify a conclusion you've already made.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So I see the flaw in your logic, you assume:

1) Goku was able to fit "on par" with Hit
2) That Hit used his same level of power against Vegeta

Neither of which are shown or stated, further Goku did not use God in the anime so how is Base Goku at full power Vegeta SSB levels? The 10% is manga only and the anime gives no indication that Vegeta powered down at all.

You are using a lot of head canon and assumptions which are not in the plot to justify a conclusion you've already made.

Hit was not noted to have powered down, and Goku was indeed fighting on par with Hit.

[TheMikado]

So I see the flaw in your logic, you assume:

1) Goku was able to fit "on par" with Hit
2) That Hit used his same level of power against Vegeta

Neither of which are shown or stated, further Goku did not use God in the anime so how is Base Goku at full power Vegeta SSB levels? The 10% is manga only and the anime gives no indication that Vegeta powered down at all.

You are using a lot of head canon and assumptions which are not in the plot to justify a conclusion you've already made.

Hit was not noted to have powered down, and Goku was indeed fighting on par with Hit.

Please explain the anime then. Base Goku is equivalent or stronger than full power SSB Vegeta.

[TheUltimateNinja]

So I see the flaw in your logic, you assume:

1) Goku was able to fit "on par" with Hit
2) That Hit used his same level of power against Vegeta

Neither of which are shown or stated, further Goku did not use God in the anime so how is Base Goku at full power Vegeta SSB levels? The 10% is manga only and the anime gives no indication that Vegeta powered down at all.

You are using a lot of head canon and assumptions which are not in the plot to justify a conclusion you've already made.

Hit was not noted to have powered down, and Goku was indeed fighting on par with Hit.

Please explain the anime then. Base Goku is equivalent or stronger than full power SSB Vegeta.

It's not necessary for him to be stronger, he just has to be close in terms of power, and by my numbers Base Goku is indeed close to SSBlue Vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

My point still stands, all 3 are in the same tier, which is impossible now with the enormous gap created by SSJ Black.

No, they are not. All we know is that 10% SSB Vegeta isn't strong enough to surpass Hit's Tokitobashi.

[TheMikado]

My point still stands, all 3 are in the same tier, which is impossible now with the enormous gap created by SSJ Black.

No, they are not. All we know is that 10% SSB Vegeta isn't strong enough to surpass Hit's Tokitobashi.

Exactly!

It's not necessary for him to be stronger, he just has to be close in terms of power, and by my numbers Base Goku is indeed close to SSBlue Vegeta.

And this is the exact reason why I hate Super. The explanations and story are ambiguous and poorly written enough where you have people believe this is true.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I find it funny how even though the anime and the manga follow the same plot, the characters in the anime are monstrously more powerful than they are in the manga.

[TheMikado]

I find it funny how even though the anime and the manga follow the same plot, the characters in the anime are monstrously more powerful than they are in the manga.

The problem is we now have three different interpretations of the power scaling. If I were to break it down into a representation using animal sizes as power levels it would like like this.

1) Two Base theory: Their bases are only marginally stronger than Buu saga and God ki can be turned on or off at will.
Base Goku = Mouse SSJ Goku = Cat SSG Goku = Bear SSB Goku = Elephant

2) Super Strong Base: The base is now super strong and God ki can only be accessed through SSB.
Base Goku = Bear SSB Goku = Elephant

3) Super Strong Everything: All forms, including base would be in the same tier.
All forms are Elephants, just varying kinds....

Like how did we even get to this point when we cant tell the difference in power between a mouse level and an elephant? There's no way this isn't due to poor execution of the series as a whole.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I find it funny how even though the anime and the manga follow the same plot, the characters in the anime are monstrously more powerful than they are in the manga.

The problem is we now have three different interpretations of the power scaling. If I were to break it down into a representation using animal sizes as power levels it would like like this.

1) Two Base theory: Their bases are only marginally stronger than Buu saga and God ki can be turned on or off at will.
Base Goku = Mouse SSJ Goku = Cat SSG Goku = Bear SSB Goku = Elephant

2) Super Strong Base: The base is now super strong and God ki can only be accessed through SSB.
Base Goku = Bear SSB Goku = Elephant

3) Super Strong Everything: All forms, including base would be in the same tier.
All forms are Elephants, just varying kinds....

Like how did we even get to this point when we cant tell the difference in power between a mouse level and an elephant? There's no way this isn't due to poor execution of the series as a whole.

The third interpretation is not possible in the anime as when Goku went SSJ2, Zamasu said he became several tens of times stronger.

[TheMikado]

I find it funny how even though the anime and the manga follow the same plot, the characters in the anime are monstrously more powerful than they are in the manga.

The problem is we now have three different interpretations of the power scaling. If I were to break it down into a representation using animal sizes as power levels it would like like this.

1) Two Base theory: Their bases are only marginally stronger than Buu saga and God ki can be turned on or off at will.
Base Goku = Mouse SSJ Goku = Cat SSG Goku = Bear SSB Goku = Elephant

2) Super Strong Base: The base is now super strong and God ki can only be accessed through SSB.
Base Goku = Bear SSB Goku = Elephant

3) Super Strong Everything: All forms, including base would be in the same tier.
All forms are Elephants, just varying kinds....

Like how did we even get to this point when we cant tell the difference in power between a mouse level and an elephant? There's no way this isn't due to poor execution of the series as a whole.

The third interpretation is not possible in the anime as when Goku went SSJ2, Zamasu said he became several tens of times stronger.

But you said Base Goku is close to SSB levels. Where would SSJ2 fall into that?

[Bullza]

They should have kept the same levels that were established in the movies. There was no need to change anything. They've made it unnecessarily confusing for no reason whatsoever.

God Ki was originally just something mortals couldn't sense so it was straightforward and now it's whatever mess it's supposed to br. Super Saiyan Blue was originally just what their Super Saiyan was and now it isn't.

The characters are at unnecessarily different levels in the anime and the manga. There's forms that are exclusive to each version etc. Things aren't properly explained and each and every person has a different opinion almost everything.

It'll only get worse with this new arc aswell.

[TheUltimateNinja]

The problem is we now have three different interpretations of the power scaling. If I were to break it down into a representation using animal sizes as power levels it would like like this.

1) Two Base theory: Their bases are only marginally stronger than Buu saga and God ki can be turned on or off at will.
Base Goku = Mouse SSJ Goku = Cat SSG Goku = Bear SSB Goku = Elephant

2) Super Strong Base: The base is now super strong and God ki can only be accessed through SSB.
Base Goku = Bear SSB Goku = Elephant

3) Super Strong Everything: All forms, including base would be in the same tier.
All forms are Elephants, just varying kinds....

Like how did we even get to this point when we cant tell the difference in power between a mouse level and an elephant? There's no way this isn't due to poor execution of the series as a whole.

The third interpretation is not possible in the anime as when Goku went SSJ2, Zamasu said he became several tens of times stronger.

But you said Base Goku is close to SSB levels. Where would SSJ2 fall into that?

I use the 2 base theory. SSJ2 is 100x his normal base but much weaker than his powered up base.

[ZombieVito]

My point still stands, all 3 are in the same tier, which is impossible now with the enormous gap created by SSJ Black.

No, they are not. All we know is that 10% SSB Vegeta isn't strong enough to surpass Hit's Tokitobashi.

Did I miss something? The Time Skip was said to only work on people weaker or as strong as Hit. So they are on the same tier by default.

I find it funny how even though the anime and the manga follow the same plot, the characters in the anime are monstrously more powerful than they are in the manga.

Not anymore lol. Manga's SSB multiplier just increased over 400 times.

[TheMikado]

The third interpretation is not possible in the anime as when Goku went SSJ2, Zamasu said he became several tens of times stronger.

But you said Base Goku is close to SSB levels. Where would SSJ2 fall into that?

I use the 2 base theory. SSJ2 is 100x his normal base but much weaker than his powered up base.

The two base theory isnt in the anime. There's nothing to suggest that there is other than the story making logical sense that way.
While I do believe that the two bases was the outline's intention. I'm not just going to insert it into the anime.

[TheUltimateNinja]

But you said Base Goku is close to SSB levels. Where would SSJ2 fall into that?

I use the 2 base theory. SSJ2 is 100x his normal base but much weaker than his powered up base.

The two base theory isnt in the anime. There's nothing to suggest that there is other than the story making logical sense that way.
While I do believe that the two bases was the outline's intention. I'm not just going to insert it into the anime.

The anime does retain many elements from the movies, the enhanced base is most likely one of them.

For starters, Base Goku and Vegeta are at the very least above Ultimate Gohan, even if you greatly lowball them that's the lowest possible battle power they have. SSJ is 50x that, or around 70x Ultimate Gohan at least, and Frost was able to take quite the beating from SSJ Goku, so his final form is probably around 50x Ultimate Gohan. Then he fights Piccolo. We'll be generous and say he lost nearly half his strength from getting pounded by Goku, he's still 30x Ultimate Gohan. And Piccolo should be nowhere close to that level, in my opinion he's still weaker than even SSJ3 Gotenks, let alone Ultimate Gohan, yet judging from his fight with Frost he must be several times stronger than Gohan as not only does he outspeed Frost, he manages to completely restrain him with just one arm.

That makes no sense at all, Piccolo should be much weaker than that, therefore the only explanation is that Goku and Vegeta can choose which base to use, and their transformations are affected by this as well.
Regular base: SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3.
Base w/ power of SSGod: SSBlue

[TheUltimateNinja]

Did I miss something? The Time Skip was said to only work on people weaker or as strong as Hit. So they are on the same tier by default.

I find it funny how even though the anime and the manga follow the same plot, the characters in the anime are monstrously more powerful than they are in the manga.

Not anymore lol. Manga's SSB multiplier just increased over 400 times.

I wonder if manga SSBlue is actually much stronger than anime SSBlue now.

Because in the manga: SSBlue > SSGod > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Black (Suppressed?) > Base Black > SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku > SSJ2 Goku > SSJ Goku > Base Goku

The gap between Base and SSBlue seems much larger in the manga.

Also, Goku is incredibly underpowered now, mere SSJ2s are vastly stronger than his SSJ3. I thought he was supposed to be a prodigy.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Goku isn't weaker than Vegeta and the powerscale hasn't changed. There isn't any reason that Vegeta would have lost his mutated SSJ2 that he showed against Beerus.

Super Saiyan God doesn't multiply off of the Super Saiyan forms, so I'm not seeing how Black having SSJ would change the powerscale. It multiplies off of a Saiyan's base strength. SSB and Rose is simply going Super Saiyan while using Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan=50xbase
Super Saiyan 2=2xSuper Saiyan
Super Saiyan 3=4xSuper Saiyan 2
Quake of fury SSJ2=600xSuper Saiyan
Super Saiyan God=200,000xbase
Super Saiyan Blue=10xSuper Saiyan God
Super Saiyan Rose=3,900xbase

Future Trunks arc Base Goku: 32,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 1,625,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 3,250,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 13,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 6,500,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 65,500,000,000,000,000,000


Base Goku Black: 16,000,000,000,000,000
Base Goku Black(Post training): 18,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 900,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 70,200,000,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks arc Base Vegeta: 32,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 1,625,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta(Quake of fury): 975,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 65,500,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Rose's multiplier isn't anywhere near SSB. SSR Black wasn't that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta despite his base form being hundreds of times stronger.

[TheMikado]

^ except the manga and Toriyamas notes show that whatever SSR is, it separate from Blacks SSJ state. No idea what it's supposed to be though...