Gashif Aldi wrote:I feel like the best Tate for people is corrected Tate (except for Yammamuro). Let him make a dynamic choreography fights (like in most of his seasonal anime cuts) Then correct it with 2nd Key Animators. Boom!
No one complains.
Oh definitely. That's the best option for me. Black's entrance, New SSJ Form FT Trunks vs Black, and SSB Vegeta punching SSR Black are all scenes done by him that I love, because the art was corrected by someone. Otherwise if he kept that style, it would just turn me off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6qr6qxwOMY 1:50 onwards
A world without Dragon Ball is just boring.
Favourite old DB Animators: Masaki Sato and Tadayoshi Yamamuro
Favourite new DB Animators: Yuya Takahashi and Chikashi Kubota
Gashif Aldi wrote:I feel like the best Tate for people is corrected Tate (except for Yammamuro). Let him make a dynamic choreography fights (like in most of his seasonal anime cuts) Then correct it with 2nd Key Animators. Boom!
No one complains.
Oh definitely. That's the best option for me. Black's entrance, New SSJ Form FT Trunks vs Black, and SSB Vegeta punching SSR Black are all scenes done by him that I love, because the art was corrected by someone. Otherwise if he kept that style, it would just turn me off.
I get this sentiment, I really do, but correcting Tate has always had mixed results. Sometimes they compliment the fluidity, sometimes they destroy, or at least damper his proportions. As I said in my last post, once DBS is in a position where it can steadily deliver consistent artwork without compromising movement, I'll be more open to the idea. Unfortunately, we aren't quite there yet. The artwork collapses every time we have a few really good action scenes strung together.
Thanks, Yomi. I've been keeping out of it, but you've said just about everything I've wanted to say.
This is bad art:
[spoiler] [/spoiler]
The proportions are wrong by any standard, the hand is backwards, and for something that's clearly trying to stick close to the model sheets... Well, that's clearly not happening.
While I'm not going to pretend that Tate is perfect (yes, I do see that six-fingered Goku that's on screen for a nanosecond), he does absolutely understand how to draw, and his models reflect that. They're proportionally sound, but as has been brought up, they're not the least bit interested in sticking very strongly to the character sheets. They're a totally different style, but they're mostly well done for what they want to be.
From the few back and forths I've had recently, the issue seems to stem from just how different they are. For some, the shift is so jarring -- the change so strong that it just doesn't work; it's too weird, it stands out too much, and that's immersion breaking. And you know what, I totally understand that, even if I personally don't have that issue. The character sheets do exist for a reason, of course.
Another argument is that Tate's 'skin filled with water' style of movement doesn't fit with what Dragon Ball fights are -- going by Toriyama's manga. For me, this argument doesn't work, as how you interpret still panels is different from person to person. Kei, for example, although he appreciates both Tate and Shida's work, he doesn't like them in Dragon Ball, as he feels their movement doesn't capture the Kung Fu action that defines the series for him. But as we know, a lot of people love Shida, just like a lot of people like Tate, so it's clearly ticking the boxes of Dragon Ball for some.
For me, that's what makes animation so beautiful. You get to see all of these interpretations of the same material. And no, you don't have to like all of them -- absolutely not.
My frustrations these past few days have primarily come from horrendous comments insulting Tate as a person and wishing for his death, but what's made it so much worse is that I felt like my efforts over the past year to inform were wasted. That's naivety on the extent of my outreach, but depressing, all the same.
I don't mind where your opinions fall on the guy (at least not that much), but I just want it to come from a place of understanding. What's he trying to achieve? Why does it look like this? How successful has he been at it? Criticise his work with all the facts.
I know that's asking a lot from people, but I feel like that's the type of attitude that made me fall in love with Kanzenshuu in the first place. Look to learn, approach from an informed point of view, and avoid sweeping statements at all costs. Have fun with it!
It's easy to fall into the trap of spouting emotionally-charged reactions (I struggle with it a lot), but I'd like to ask that we don't engage or lament over some of the more disgusting comments when we're on this forum, and stick to talking animation in the best way we can. As Mike likes to say, if you keep talking positively about things you love, you'll do a better job of winning people over than chastising them for their opposing opinions.
And on a lighter note, I'll laugh (and cry) if after all this, the episode turns out poorly.
See, that's what I always thought when it came to bade art/animation: As long as there's no glaring errors like unnatural broken movements, unintentionally disproportionate limbs and drawing/coloring mishaps that are clearly not intentional, I don't care.
I really hope Tate can do, if not great, then good. If not, we'll see.
I'd like to take a moment to thank Ajay and all of you who engage in discussions about animations every week on this forum . I've learned so much about animation productions and different animation styles just by following this forum reguraly ,since I aspire to become an animator one day .I've signed in to leave this comment here ,you guys are the best. Love from India
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Yomi wrote:When people believe that Vegito vs Zamasu can't hold a candle to anything in Z,GT.
Not that I agree with them, but was that the best animated piece in the franchise in your opinion?
I know you're not asking me, but if you're at all interested, I felt that 57 was better, and is definitely the best out of the TV series. For best in the franchise (as in movies, specials, and whatnot), I'd say Hisashi Mori's cut is best, though I'd say there's a strong argument for Shida's cut in Battle of Gods, too.
Shreyas_Singh wrote:I'd like to take a moment to thank Ajay and all of you who engage in discussions about animations every week on this forum . I've learned so much about animation productions and different animation styles just by following this forum reguraly ,since I aspire to become an animator one day .I've signed in to leave this comment here ,you guys are the best. Love from India
Thank you! Hope you stick around. It's always good to hear everyone's input each week.
Yomi wrote:When people believe that Vegito vs Zamasu can't hold a candle to anything in Z,GT.
Not that I agree with them, but was that the best animated piece in the franchise in your opinion?
I know you're not asking me, but if you're at all interested, I felt that 57 was better, and is definitely the best out of the TV series. For best in the franchise (as in movies, specials, and whatnot), I'd say Hisashi Mori's cut is best, though I'd say there's a strong argument for Shida's cut in Battle of Gods, too.
Shreyas_Singh wrote:I'd like to take a moment to thank Ajay and all of you who engage in discussions about animations every week on this forum . I've learned so much about animation productions and different animation styles just by following this forum reguraly ,since I aspire to become an animator one day .I've signed in to leave this comment here ,you guys are the best. Love from India
Thank you! Hope you stick around. It's always good to hear everyone's input each week.
Thats interesting, would you say Shida's cut from #57 is better than this cut by Tadayoshi Yamamuro? If so, why (I presume it has something to do with the crazy rotations)?
[spoiler][/spoiler]
JazzMazz wrote:Thats interesting, would you say Shida's cut from #57 is better than this cut by Tadayoshi Yamamuro? If so, why (I presume it has something to do with the crazy rotations)?
[spoiler][/spoiler]
While the character art is absolutely out of this world and a depressing reminder of how far we've fallen, the animation itself isn't startlingly well executed, even if it is good work and really up there for Dragon Ball back then.
I love the loose pop of the hands coming apart at the start, and the real weight as Goku runs through the pretty effects at the end. There's a great understanding of weight and movement there that lends itself well to this type of hand-to-hand combat. It's far less pose-to-pose and stilted that Yamamuro's current output.
It feels like something's missing though, and I think that comes from the timing and lack of inbetween drawings. It's a great idea to play with ramped slow-mo like that, and you can see that in Yamamuro's work to this day, but following the slow-mo must come the full force of the impact, and I feel like it's missing that special touch to really top it off.
Comparing it to Yuki Hayashi's cut in Resurrection 'F' might help demonstrate it better as they both do similar things. Hayashi has that extra weight and speed on the follow-up from the slow-mo that really brings the scene together. Yamamuro's scene is just shy of meeting that -- the timing isn't quite there. In fact, you could very well compare Yamamuro with Yamamuro by using his work in DBZ Movie 9. Again, similar intentions, but a vastly different (and higher) level of execution.
Still, it's a great scene, and it deserves the recognition it gets.
Shida's cut on a technical level is above and beyond that, really. The camera work alone is hard enough, but when you consider the movement going on within that camera work (you mentioned the rotations, yourself), the scene is taken to a totally different level.
The first 6 or so seconds of Shida's scene are entirely one cut, and the aforementioned components within that cut are outstandingly detailed considering how short it is. Admittedly the remainder of the cuts in the scene are less complex, but Shida's smoke and beam effects make up for that, in my opinion.
I suppose once you get these scenes together, it becomes a matter of opinion after a certain point. They're all technically good, so ordering them then comes down to your personal tastes, I guess.
I like that Yamamuro cut, but I feel like the animation itself isn't better than 57's. Nothing really stands out too much. I think it really only gets by by it's top-notch storyboarding and great art quality.
JazzMazz wrote:Thats interesting, would you say Shida's cut from #57 is better than this cut by Tadayoshi Yamamuro? If so, why (I presume it has something to do with the crazy rotations)?
[spoiler][/spoiler]
While the character art is absolutely out of this world and a depressing reminder of how far we've fallen, the animation itself isn't startlingly well executed, even if it is good work and really up there for Dragon Ball back then.
I love the loose pop of the hands coming apart at the start, and the real weight as Goku runs through the pretty effects at the end. There's a great understanding of weight and movement there that lends itself well to this type of hand-to-hand combat. It's far less pose-to-pose and stilted that Yamamuro's current output.
It feels like something's missing though, and I think that comes from the timing and lack of inbetween drawings. It's a great idea to play with ramped slow-mo like that, and you can see that in Yamamuro's work to this day, but following the slow-mo must come the full force of the impact, and I feel like it's missing that special touch to really top it off.
Comparing it to Yuki Hayashi's cut in Resurrection 'F' might help demonstrate it better as they both do similar things. Hayashi has that extra weight and speed on the follow-up from the slow-mo that really brings the scene together. Yamamuro's scene is just shy of meeting that -- the timing isn't quite there. In fact, you could very well compare Yamamuro with Yamamuro by using his work in DBZ Movie 9. Again, similar intentions, but a vastly different (and higher) level of execution.
Still, it's a great scene, and it deserves the recognition it gets.
Shida's cut on a technical level is above and beyond that, really. The camera work alone is hard enough, but when you consider the movement going on within that camera work (you mentioned the rotations, yourself), the scene is taken to a totally different level.
The first 6 or so seconds of Shida's scene are entirely one cut, and the aforementioned components within that cut are outstandingly detailed considering how short it is. Admittedly the remainder of the cuts in the scene are less complex, but Shida's smoke and beam effects make up for that, in my opinion.
I suppose once you get these scenes together, it becomes a matter of opinion after a certain point. They're all technically good, so ordering them then comes down to your personal tastes, I guess.
I see what you mean, it really just comes down to impact timing, interesting effects, camera work and again, rotatons.
For me personally my favourite scene from Z was Kazuya Hisada's and Masihiro Shimanuki's lengthy Namekian cut from #47, as well as Takeo Ide's cut from #142 (no wonder his a chief animation supervisor if he was able to produce stuff like this for the series).
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
I just really enjoyed the timing, camera and effects work that went into both these scenes, and for me they personally stick out, even though they are probably not the best Z had from a technical perspective.
I'm not even a fan of Tate, but I honestly don't see what the problem with the NEP is. Animation looks fluid, effects look brilliant, and character art looks decent enough, at least in the scenes which I assume are corrected by Karasawa.
That slow-mo and style of editing in DBZ #232 is unmistakably Yama'uchi Shigeyasu(director and storyboard artist) style. He loves that slow-mo and combines it so-well with hand-to-hand combat.
So, I would give him more credit than Yamamuro, but yeah #232 is the only Shindou Pro and Yamamuro piece I would call very good. The character art and expressions were all on point. The action segments were also well-handled for the most part.
I just realized that you got up to date on your animation roundup series Ajay, great job as always.
I was actually wondering just yesterday if you were just going to wait until the next arc to start it back up.
Oh crap, I completely over looked that. I really enjoyed the triple, it was concise while also being informative. I hope next weeks staff round-up is a cause for some (hopefully positive) discussion.
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