"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:32 pm

Araki wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:Which doesn't make any sense, since Future Zamasu shouldn't have given a damn about Goku, and he didn't after that point.
Maybe you forgot they actually discussed it, one or two episodes later, and decided it wouldn't matter who finished him.

And i disagree that he shouldn't give a damn about Goku after presumably hearing everything from Black/present Zamasu, which is himself, after all - and if you think the reason Zamasu went after Goku in the manga is legit (he just saw a mortal using God ki through God tube), then you should be perfectly fine with future Zamasu hating Goku in the anime, too.
Pretty much. Future Zamasu and Manga Present Zamasu have no reason to 'hate' Goku because they never met him. Yet, they both do with Manga Zamasu taking Goku's body and then murdering him.
Avok wrote:The fight choreography is ten times better in the manga, so there's that.
I strongly disagree with this, but I always prefer movement when I see fast action vs. still shots, which is why I never got into comics.
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precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:39 pm

It's criminal how much better than the anime the manga is. Jesus.

Everything is so much more logical here.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Neo-Makaiōshin » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:46 pm

TKA wrote: Everything is so much more logical here.
Could you give some examples?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:50 pm

HeroR wrote:
Avok wrote:The fight choreography is ten times better in the manga, so there's that.
I strongly disagree with this, but I always prefer movement when I see fast action vs. still shots, which is why I never got into comics.
Even as a comic guy, the choreography in the manga is decent, but nothing special. I'd say it's average, while all of the big fighting episodes other than 64 were above average, 57 and 66 being downright amazing. I'd say the anime wins on that front unless Chapter 20 is godly. Otherwise, it's hardly even a contest.
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:Could you give some examples?
The only thing that's inherently more logical is the time travel causality. However, even Toyotaro has Whis say that killing Zamas would create a new timeline, which I would have expected Toyotaro to correct, it being a HUGE continuity boo-boo. It's pretty annoying, too, since stating that Trunks created a timeline by coming to the present again would have still been a little wrong, but not nearly as obvious, and with absolutely no change to the core of the plot itself. Other than that, there may be some power scale bullshit here and there that may make more sense in one version or the other.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Tue Dec 20, 2016 10:59 pm

TKA wrote:It's criminal how much better than the anime the manga is. Jesus.

Everything is so much more logical here.
As far as the current arc is concerned, I disagree completely. The anime might have made some questionable choices along the way, but by and large Zamasu/Black as a villain had much more build-up, exposition, and even characterization than his manga equivalent. I hate to say it because I've really enjoyed Toyotaro's writing for the U6 Tournament, but the anime just did a better job of fleshing out this arc's plot as a whole.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:10 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:As far as the current arc is concerned, I disagree completely. The anime might have made some questionable choices along the way, but by and large Zamasu/Black as a villain had much more build-up, exposition, and even characterization than his manga equivalent. I hate to say it because I've really enjoyed Toyotaro's writing for the U6 Tournament, but the anime just did a better job of fleshing out this arc's plot as a whole.
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
TKA wrote: Everything is so much more logical here.
Could you give some examples?
The anime meanders. It kills the urgency of Trunks' situation by throwing him into wacky escapades, that while endearing, don't belong in this "serious" arc. In addition, the anime seemed like it didn't know what it wanted to do. It had Goku, Trunks and Vegeta going to the future and running back to the past... how many times? The manga is more concise, condensed and shows us only the salient stuff.

The anime is probably more "fun," but in terms of storytelling and character, I definitely respect what the manga has done and hold it to a higher level of quality than its animated counterpart.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:35 pm

TKA wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:As far as the current arc is concerned, I disagree completely. The anime might have made some questionable choices along the way, but by and large Zamasu/Black as a villain had much more build-up, exposition, and even characterization than his manga equivalent. I hate to say it because I've really enjoyed Toyotaro's writing for the U6 Tournament, but the anime just did a better job of fleshing out this arc's plot as a whole.
Neo-Makaiōshin wrote:
TKA wrote: Everything is so much more logical here.
Could you give some examples?
The anime meanders. It kills the urgency of Trunks' situation by throwing him into wacky escapades, that while endearing, don't belong in this "serious" arc. In addition, the anime seemed like it didn't know what it wanted to do. It had Goku, Trunks and Vegeta going to the future and running back to the past... how many times? The manga is more concise, condensed and shows us only the salient stuff.

The anime is probably more "fun," but in terms of storytelling and character, I definitely respect what the manga has done and hold it to a higher level of quality than its animated counterpart.
While that's fine, Z had it share of humor even in serious situations like the Ginyu Force, Mr. Satan at the Cell Games, Buu who ping-pang between being dangerous and being hilarious. So even the original material had humor in the 'serious' arc. Even then, the wackiness stopped in the Future Trunks arc after they went to the future the first time and it grew steadier darker from there.

In the anime, they went to the future three times. The first time going back was a big deal since the heroes suffered an utter defeat for the first time in this series. The second and third trip could have been combined, but they retreated the second time because Beerus kept insisting that everything was fine and they went in woefully unprepared.

Storytelling wise, I just can't agree because the manga abridge too much stuff. Zamasu has no personal connection with Goku despite taking his body because he became obsessed with him through GodTube. That is far less personal than Zamasu snapping because a mortal beat him in a sparring match and raises the question of why Goku was choosing and not several of the other powerful mortals he saw during the tournament. The manga itself lampshades this. Black's identity was also giving in an info dump where everything perfectly came together for the heroes instead of the slow build and the mystery the anime gave Black's origin.

As for characters, I can see why people would prefer the manga version of Goku over the anime, although I don't personal care for this version of Goku. Vegeta is about the same, except more of a smart ass. Trunks, however, has almost no characterization or growth in the manga compared to the anime. In fact, he doesn't seem all that traumatize about what happened to him in the manga. Anime Trunks had PTSD, low self-esteem, depression, and a number of other issues he needed to overcome, something Vegeta and even Kid Trunks helped him with. Manga Trunks has done nothing besides give information and play go-kart, and seems just fine mentally despite all the crap he has been through.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Boo Machine » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:38 pm

TKA wrote:The anime meanders. It kills the urgency of Trunks' situation by throwing him into wacky escapades, that while endearing, don't belong in this "serious" arc. In addition, the anime seemed like it didn't know what it wanted to do. It had Goku, Trunks and Vegeta going to the future and running back to the past... how many times? The manga is more concise, condensed and shows us only the salient stuff.

The anime is probably more "fun," but in terms of storytelling and character, I definitely respect what the manga has done and hold it to a higher level of quality than its animated counterpart.
While the Anime may meander in places it doesn't need to, at least it has the time to do so. The manga doesn't have that luxury to spend on things not apart of the story yet it spent quite a bit of time telling the event with majin buu and the kart racing. Those were nice and all but considering Toyotaro is trying to keep up with only about 30-40 pages or so he should have spent that time telling the actual story and fleshing out the characters.

Speaking of Kart racing no one had a problem with that being in this "Serious" arc. In fact there are a few who wish it was in the anime.

They went back to the past twice. I know thats probably 1 too many times and I agree but why do people make it seem like they went back a thousand times? It was 2. 3 if you want to count Trunks initial return.

Like you said the story is condensed. Too condensed. I don't blame Toyo for this but there is not enough time to tell a full story here. What we have is basically a quick summary with a few changes here and there. And I don't see much character here, personally. In fact, as some others have pointed out, the villains personality is no where near as good as the animes. And trunks isn't all that fleshed out either aside from a panel or two.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:55 pm

HeroR wrote:While that's fine, Z had it share of humor even in serious situations like the Ginyu Force, Mr. Satan at the Cell Games, Buu who ping-pang between being dangerous and being hilarious. So even the original material had humor in the 'serious' arc. Even then, the wackiness stopped in the Future Trunks arc after they went to the future the first time and it grew steadier darker from there.
There's a marked difference between inserting levity into a tense situation and putting the tense situation on the backburner for the sake of levity. I'm not keen on picking apart specific examples, but the ones you used show what I mean rather perfectly. Satan, Buu and the Ginyus are all comedic moments in dramatically tense situations, where the danger is very present. In the anime, Black and Zamasu are off where they can't hurt any of the main cast, while Trunks and the rest of the cast are doing whatever.
In the anime, they went to the future three times. The first time going back was a big deal since the heroes suffered an utter defeat for the first time in this series. The second and third trip could have been combined, but they retreated the second time because Beerus kept insisting that everything was fine and they went in woefully unprepared.
There can be any number of reasons a writer can use to justify how many times a character does something. You can, likewise, justify their multiple trips to and from the future. They don't work for me because it shows poor plotting on Toei's part. If not poorly-plotted, then at least meandering in nature.
Storytelling wise, I just can't agree because the manga abridge too much stuff. Zamasu has no personal connection with Goku despite taking his body because he became obsessed with him through GodTube. That is far less personal than Zamasu snapping because a mortal beat him in a sparring match and raises the question of why Goku was choosing and not several of the other powerful mortals he saw during the tournament. The manga itself lampshades this. Black's identity was also giving in an info dump where everything perfectly came together for the heroes instead of the slow build and the mystery the anime gave Black's origin.
All of that's fine. Your preference is fine. I'm not at all attacking that and saying you're wrong for liking that more. Absolutely not and please don't take that from my words. I'm just saying the manga works better for me.

With that out of the way, there weren't any grandiose leaps in logic to determine Black's identity. The characters used knowledge that they quite frankly should've used in the anime to figure out what Black is. Really, the anime falters with its mystery aspect. "Who" Black is became irrelevant the moment they introduced the working theory that he is a product of the Super Dragonballs. At that point the characters stopped caring and that became their explanation. It was then unnecessarily, in my opinion, revealed to actually be Zamasu in Goku's body and that there's an alternate universe Zamasu he's working with. All of that is both needlessly complicated and not how you write mysteries.
As for characters, I can see why people would prefer the manga version of Goku over the anime
For one, the manga version of Goku isn't annoyingly stupid. I don't blame Toei for this, really. They need to pad out episodes and they need fillers. I'm sure if the manga was weekly there'd be a lot more moments of Goku being several magnitudes stupider than he currently is.
Trunks, however, has almost no characterization or growth in the manga compared to the anime. In fact, he doesn't seem all that traumatize about what happened to him in the manga. Anime Trunks had PTSD, low self-esteem, depression, and a number of other issues he needed to overcome, something Vegeta and even Kid Trunks helped him with.
I'd say I prefer the manga's approach. Trunks grew up with everyone around him dead and dying. Let's not forget it was the dead body of his only father figure that enabled him to transform. Then, by the end of the Android Arc he has become protector of the future and is a steeled warrior. While him going into PTSD and self-doubt is an interesting route to take the character, it's not one that builds on the state he was when we last saw him, nor is it one I feel is wholly necessary in order to "develop" him.

The Trunks we have here is reasoned, resolute and determined. This is the Trunks that went back to his timeline confident and saved it.
Manga Trunks has done nothing besides give information and play go-kart, and seems just fine mentally despite all the crap he has been through.
Actually, the manga put Trunks in a much better position to be relaxed than the anime did. Trunks wasting time in filler is at odds with the sense of urgency the anime established, but the manga makes it clear they aren't exactly in a hurry. In addition, the manga showed us the lengths this Trunks has gone to to protect his timeline, from training with Kaioshin to killing Dabra.

He's fine in the head and can play DBZ Go-Kart because he's used to this shit. The anime version, which has the aforementioned stressors shouldn't be doing what he was doing in the glorified filler.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:10 am

To give a notion of the pacing of the manga. Which isn't rushed at all in my opinion.

Freeza Saga:
Manga - 37 chapters
Anime - 33 episodes
1,12/1

Android Saga:
Manga - 20 chapters
Anime - 13 episodes
1,53/1

Cell Games Saga:
Manga - 32 chapters
Anime - 28 episodes
1,14/1

Fusion Saga:
Manga - 23 chapters
Anime - 21 episodes
1,09/1

Future Trunks Arc: Note that each chapter has 39 pages compared to the 13-15 of the original manga. Because of that I count each Super chapter as 2,5 chapters of the original manga.
Manga - 15 chapters (6) Still Going.
Anime - 19 episodes
0,78/1 (Since we're getting at least one more chapter, this stat at a minimum will be 0,92/1)

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Duo » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:12 am

The pseudo-criticism in this thread is both too abundant and too bullshit to really try to address, but my god is it hard to stomach.

As another poster pointed out earlier, 95% of the negativity can be summarized as "The anime wasn't like this, and I saw that first, so this sucks."

I had so many issues with the anime version that I never bothered writing anywhere because I knew they wouldn't be here, but it feels like being robbed of my opportunity to engage the community on it without the entire situation being dominated by power-scaling nonsense and complains about Black's character based on an incomplete version of the story.

---

Well, let's see if any fish bite:

1) I greatly enjoy the subtle differences in Black's facial expressions and such compared to Goku proper. Not just the thick eye outline, but some of the moments in panels where he's dodge attacks and what not. You can see just a touch of Zamasu in there, somehow. It's hard to describe.

2) I recall seeing some confusion as to what level of Super Saiyan they are using. My vote is that it is, in fact, Ssj2, because Toyotaro has shown off regular Super Saiyan without the lightning bolts before. His attention to detail in relationship to the original manga makes it hard for me to believe he would slap the key Ssj2 trait in just for shits. If anything, he's more reliable that I would expect Toriyama to be with that.

3) The fact we probably aren't going to see multiple time jumps is such a benefit the cohesion of the story that it can't possible be understated. If all the useless plot threads are stripped away, I can only imagine how much greater the tension will be when the heroes end up facing merged Zamasu (if only we didn't already know generally where it was going, it wouldn't seem so underwhelming to so many people).

4) The power scaling has been kept so abstract in general throughout Super as a whole that it's hard for me to get behind all the drama over it, especially considering how many of the "problems" really come from the anime, the movies, and various guidebooks. The manga is far more internally consistent if you aren't reading all that "absorbed Super Saiyan God" stuff from the other two versions. It becomes more and more clear why that change was made, with time. I'm also baffled that anybody could criticize the power scaling here while ignoring the absolute nightmare that Kkx10 opened up in the anime in relationship to the same subject.

5) While the last Black / Vegeta fight in the anime was really good, this one knocked it out of the ballpark. I'm surprised it went on for so long, and it may come off as a Vegeta love letter (even though it equally demonstrates how much Goku would have slaughtered Black equally), but it works so much better than Black ending up so absurdly powerful with no probable cause. It's going to make it that much sweeter when the villain takes the upper hand, and it's also going to make Zamasu's immortality a lot more critical instead of just being a pain in the ass on the side.

6) Panels of the city getting messed up in the fight are awesome. Completely unlike anything we've ever in this manga or the original DB manga.

7) Beerus is just great. The line "Not that a Hakaishin needs a reason to destroy..." is so so so good.

8) Kaioshin's bit of added role in things pleases me. I enjoyed his character during the Buu arc and he really hasn't had much to do since. Kibitokai wasn't my cup of tea, to boot.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:19 am

Duo wrote:1) I greatly enjoy the subtle differences in Black's facial expressions and such compared to Goku proper. Not just the thick eye outline, but some of the moments in panels where he's dodge attacks and what not. You can see just a touch of Zamasu in there, somehow. It's hard to describe.
I haven't found any 1:1 tracings from spot-checking, which is strange (in a good way), but Toyotaro's SS Goku Black definitely takes reference from Toriyama's Majin Vegeta. Actually, if anyone wants to try to find out where some of his Goku Black panels come from, I'd appreciate it. Obviously, they'll probably be from the Majin Vegeta x Goku fight.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Duo » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:25 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Duo wrote:1) I greatly enjoy the subtle differences in Black's facial expressions and such compared to Goku proper. Not just the thick eye outline, but some of the moments in panels where he's dodge attacks and what not. You can see just a touch of Zamasu in there, somehow. It's hard to describe.
I haven't found any 1:1 tracings from spot-checking, which is strange (in a good way), but Toyotaro's SS Goku Black definitely takes reference from Toriyama's Majin Vegeta. Actually, if anyone wants to try to find out where some of his Goku Black panels come from, I'd appreciate it. Obviously, they'll probably be from the Majin Vegeta x Goku fight.
I definitely picked up on that, as well. His front-and-center shots really send that one home. It works pretty well here, given the circumstances. We same the same eye design applied to present-Zamasu right before he attacks Kaioshin? I'm assume he would have aimed his attack at Kaioshin, given how they would take care of the other two.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Abra kadabra » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:27 am

Vegeta should have went blue right away. That would have solved everything. I would have forgiven this vegeta fan wank of a chapter if SSJ2 vegeta didn't make base/ssj2 black look like a joke. It's such an avoidable mistake that it had to be done deliberately to throw the reader off. If that's the case next chapter, all is forgiven. :thumbup:

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Boo Machine » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:27 am

Duo wrote:As another poster pointed out earlier, 95% of the negativity can be summarized as "The anime wasn't like this, and I saw that first, so this sucks."
I don't really think it's really fair to brush off a lot of criticism with "It's only because they saw the anime first". I like to think there are plenty of people here who are capable of looking at both and loving them and/or criticizing on their own.
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To Infinity, then stop!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:40 am

An idea flipped on a light bulb in my head earlier today, and now I've gone back and verified it. Goku Black didn't follow Trunks to the present in the manga, that initial fight didn't happen. That means that this isn't only an adaptation of the several fights that took place in the future, it's also adapting the Episode 50 present fight. I even checked the dialogue, and sure enough, there are a few similar lines. Even though I wasn't overly-critical of Toyotaro's decisions in Chapter 19, I must admit that I was a little baffled as to why he was dragging his feet, now I think I have my answer.

Also, it brings a question to my mind; Why didn't black turn into a Super Saiyan at the beginning of both versions of this arc, rather than having him come off as super-powerful without transforming? Because even for someone like me, who could hardly give two shits less about nitpicking the power scale, the Chapter 19 fight comes off as nonsensical given prior strength implications. Giving Black Super Saiyan and having him use it in Chapters 14 and 15, as well as Episodes 48 and 50 of the show, would fix a ton of issues for those who are concerned.
Boo Machine wrote:I don't really think it's really fair to brush off a lot of criticism with "It's only because they saw the anime first". I like to think there are plenty of people here who are capable of looking at both and loving them and/or criticizing on their own.
To be fair, that kind of is what a lot of people were saying, especially when the chapter first began to leak. I suspect that next chapter will address some of the more hasty criticisms of this one.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Boo Machine » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:49 am

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
Boo Machine wrote:I don't really think it's really fair to brush off a lot of criticism with "It's only because they saw the anime first". I like to think there are plenty of people here who are capable of looking at both and loving them and/or criticizing on their own.
To be fair, that kind of is what a lot of people were saying, especially when the chapter first began to leak. I suspect that next chapter will address some of the more hasty criticisms of this one.
You're right. There was some uproar just from the first blurry shots of the chapter.

I do have hopes for the next chapter though. Because aside from this chapter, I actually like the manga.
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To Infinity, then stop!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:56 am

Boo Machine wrote:I do have hopes for the next chapter though. Because aside from this chapter, I actually like the manga.
Same, although I actually did like the chapter. When we re-read it as a whole, things like Kart Racing and this non-fight will help the pacing, and that's the context I view every chapter in, not just how much I enjoy it upon release. In a slow-release product, that's how you have to think about it if you're going to judge accurately.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:26 am

My main question is why was it necessary to have Black transform? He was getting his ass kicked in base and upon transforming he was still getting his ass kicked, so I don't see the point. Toyo could have just had him stay in base the whole time like in the anime, at least then there wouldn't be so many complaints about Vegeta fanboyism and powerscaling.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jinzoningen MULE » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:37 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:My main question is why was it necessary to have Black transform? He was getting his ass kicked in base and upon transforming he was still getting his ass kicked, so I don't see the point. Toyo could have just had him stay in base the whole time like in the anime, at least then there wouldn't be so many complaints about Vegeta fanboyism and powerscaling.
I doubt Toyotaro cares one damn bit about what the fans complain about. Most of us are up leasable twats. Anyway, it's apparent to me that Toriyama did plan for him to use Super Saiyan, that's apparent from the character sheet. I think my solution handles the problem a tad better. Of course, there may be something that I overlooked, but I can't see a problem with making his untransformed state weaker in exchange for providing him with Super Saiyan power.
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