The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Kaboom]

Actually, that 170K power level would be wrong since Salza was able to fight nearly equally to Piccolo post Nail, and defeated a 200K Gohan easily. Salza would be comparable to 2nd Form Frieza.

I disagree. Sauzer couldn't do anything against Piccolo even when fighting 2-against-1 alongside Neiz earlier, and merely managed to avoid Piccolo until Coola arrived. Gohan was first beaten up by all three of the Armored Squad at once, and never healed or recovered before fighting Sauzer one-on-one again later. There's nothing in the film that requires Sauzer to be stronger than his aforementioned official power level.

[saunasolmu]

Hit vs. Majin Buu (equal power)

[Lord Beerus]

Hit vs. Majin Buu (equal power)

Majin Boo just turns Hit into candy. There's nothing Hit can do to Majin Boo that he can't regenerate from.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hit vs. Majin Buu (equal power)

Majin Boo just turns Hit into candy. There's nothing Hit can do to Majin Boo that he can't regenerate from.

Hit can avoid the attack with the timeskip. Also, it's possible to beat Majin Buu through physical damage alone as Kid Buu nearly killed him just by beating him up.

[dragonball0900]

Actually, that 170K power level would be wrong since Salza was able to fight nearly equally to Piccolo post Nail, and defeated a 200K Gohan easily. Salza would be comparable to 2nd Form Frieza.

I disagree. Sauzer couldn't do anything against Piccolo even when fighting 2-against-1 alongside Neiz earlier, and merely managed to avoid Piccolo until Coola arrived. Gohan was first beaten up by all three of the Armored Squad at once, and never healed or recovered before fighting Sauzer one-on-one again later. There's nothing in the film that requires Sauzer to be stronger than his aforementioned official power level.

I think that 170K is wrong, because I doubt that someone with that power level (even if 3 battle together) could manage to make a good fight with someone over the 1 million range, watching the movie they were fighting nearly on par with Piccolo. Also, Gohan could have made a better fight if he was 200K and if the Squad was below that, but they stomped him. 3 people who would be much below 1st Frieza just woudn't be able to do something against one that is more than 2nd Form Frieza, Piccolo would just one shoot the 3 of them faster than what the movie shows.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Battered Vegeta (After he got his ass kicked and Yajirobe cut off his tail) vs Nappa

[dragon boss z]

Battered Vegeta (After he got his ass kicked and Yajirobe cut off his tail) vs Nappa

Probably Nappa. He was so damaged he was having problems killing Yajirobe and the others.

[dragon boss z]

Well, it is possible given how the story indicate us how strong was Piccolo. But it's a matter of everyone's opinion too.

I would say there isn't enough info to come to a final conclusion on this.

No, Piccolo was stronger than 2nd Form Frieza if he doesn't have his weights. He was only equal with them. He couldn't see Frieza's movements at all, and Vegeta was able to see some of Final Form Frieza's movements too.

Frieza was holding back on Piccolo. In the manga Frieza was the last person to have an advantage while fighting in his second form. Yes, that was before he took his weights off, but 2nd form Frieza never fought Piccolo without his weights in the manga, and in the anime he was about equal.

2nd form Frieza (initial)<Piccolo with weights<2nd form Frieza (full power)<=>Piccolo without weights

He was holding back with his buff, but not in his normal power. The Roshi that your saying on this comment of yours is about 22nd Budokai Roshi to Dragon Ball Z Roshi, not the 21st Budokai Roshi.
21st Budokai Roshi and 22nd Budokai Roshi are totally different in terms of power.

Roshi doesn't just have his normal and buff form. I'm pretty sure he can power up anywhere in between that form too. Story wise Roshi being weaker than Crane doesn't make much sense, they are supposed to be rivals. The only reason Roshi seemed weak in the 21st budokai is because Toriyama wanted the fight to be intense but didn't think that far ahead in the story.
Roshi was also supposed to be weaker than King Piccolo but now all of a sudden he is turning Frieza soldiers into fodder.

But as previously said, Roshi was not able to see Post Korin Goku's movements at Baba's palace, and was fighting equally with pre Korin Goku. It was clearly said that Roshi is equal to Goku at that part of the series.

Post Korin Goku stomped Tao. I already agreed with you that 21st budokai Roshi is weaker than post Korin Goku.

Tao<=>21st Roshi<post Korin Goku<22nd Roshi

He busted the moon on his buff state, not his normal state, that's why. He was holding back because of the buff state, in his normal state he was going all out.

Yet he still won in his normal state even though he spent more energy than Goku. If Roshi was really equal with Goku he wouldn't of won after that.

Yeah, because they are on a different league than Roshi. Just because Gohan knows Goku's moves doesn't mean that he has to be stronger than Roshi. Roshi from 21st is much weaker than you think.

Nah, he is much stronger than you think. Roshi stomps Frieza soldiers now and Toriyama said he was always that strong. Roshi's strength was pretty much retconned.

It wasn't confirmed that he was almost as strong as Crane. Yeah, he was strong, but not as the Crane, maybe he gets near to him, but not reaching it. Roshi is from 22nd Budokai, not 21st who is much weaker.
Other characters such as Roshi and Krillin had shown us that despite not being saiyans, they can still resist bullets, so I think it's fair to compare Satan with them.
If he was worried about his reputation only, I doubt that after seeing Goku's big strength at Baba's palace he would get worried.

I'm pretty sure in a a guide it was stated Tao was only slightly weaker than Crane.

And after a certain strength humans become bullet proof, but I think saiyans have tougher bodies. If you look at that scene Roshi and Krillin were bleeding while Goku wasn't.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Battered Vegeta (After he got his ass kicked and Yajirobe cut off his tail) vs Nappa

Probably Nappa. He was so damaged he was having problems killing Yajirobe and the others.

This is before he gets hit by the Spirit Bomb. He seemed to still have a decent amount of power left.

[dragonball0900]

Frieza was holding back on Piccolo. In the manga Frieza was the last person to have an advantage while fighting in his second form. Yes, that was before he took his weights off, but 2nd form Frieza never fought Piccolo without his weights in the manga, and in the anime he was about equal.

2nd form Frieza (initial)<Piccolo with weights<2nd form Frieza (full power)<=>Piccolo without weights

Well, yeah, Frieza was holding back against Piccolo with weights, but after taking out his weights, everyone was sure that Piccolo was going to win (even in the anime, Piccolo seemed to have the upper hand), also Frieza decided to transform. I guess it's also a matter of anyone's opinion this time.

Roshi doesn't just have his normal and buff form. I'm pretty sure he can power up anywhere in between that form too. Story wise Roshi being weaker than Crane doesn't make much sense, they are supposed to be rivals. The only reason Roshi seemed weak in the 21st budokai is because Toriyama wanted the fight to be intense but didn't think that far ahead in the story.
Roshi was also supposed to be weaker than King Piccolo but now all of a sudden he is turning Frieza soldiers into fodder.

Yeah, story wise it's strange that Roshi was weaker than Crane, I also got confused with that, but that's how it seems to be. Also, Buff Roshi from the 21st Budokai can easily be as strong, if not stronger than Crane.
There's also the fact that the Crane stayed training while Roshi didn't that's why Roshi from the 21st Budokai could easily be weaker, as shown in his fight with Goku.
But it was clearly said that 21st Roshi is as strong as Goku in his normal state. Also, remember that Roshi from 22nd Budokai to DBS is much stronger than 21st Budokai Roshi, so therefore his buff form can be stronger.

21st Roshi < Tao Pai Pai < Post Korin Goku/ < Crane <= 21st Buff Roshi < 22nd Roshi << Frieza's Soldiers << 22nd Buff Roshi

Post Korin Goku stomped Tao. I already agreed with you that 21st budokai Roshi is weaker than post Korin Goku.

Tao<=>21st Roshi<post Korin Goku<22nd Roshi

Yeah, but the way Goku fought Akkuman, it's seems that Akkuman was < Tao Pai Pai, since Tao at least managed to fight more against Goku and Roshi wasn't able to see neither Akkuman's or Goku's movements. Roshi could easily be at Mummy Man's strenght at most.

Mummy Man <= 21st Roshi < Akkuman < Tao Pai Pai < Post Korin Goku

Yet he still won in his normal state even though he spent more energy than Goku. If Roshi was really equal with Goku he wouldn't of won after that.

But just because Roshi showed more resistance by battling Goku doesn't mean he should be around Tao's strenght. Tao Pai Pai was leagues above Goku, while Roshi was battling equal against him.

Nah, he is much stronger than you think. Roshi stomps Frieza soldiers now and Toriyama said he was always that strong. Roshi's strength was pretty much retconned.

I was talking about 21st Budokai Roshi, not the DBS Roshi who is much stronger.

I'm pretty sure in a a guide it was stated Tao was only slightly weaker than Crane.

And after a certain strength humans become bullet proof, but I think saiyans have tougher bodies. If you look at that scene Roshi and Krillin were bleeding while Goku wasn't.

I would like to see the guide in which that's said. I agree that Tao was weaker than Crane, but I don't think the gap was that small.
Also, Mr Satan was going to die against the bullet if it wasn't for Majin Buu's healing. Roshi and Krillin were bleeding, but they weren't in a situation of death.

[dragon boss z]

Battered Vegeta (After he got his ass kicked and Yajirobe cut off his tail) vs Nappa

Probably Nappa. He was so damaged he was having problems killing Yajirobe and the others.

This is before he gets hit by the Spirit Bomb. He seemed to still have a decent amount of power left.

Oh, then maybe Vegeta. Hard to say.

[dragon boss z]

Well, yeah, Frieza was holding back against Piccolo with weights, but after taking out his weights, everyone was sure that Piccolo was going to win (even in the anime, Piccolo seemed to have the upper hand), also Frieza decided to transform. I guess it's also a matter of anyone's opinion this time.

Nobody was sure he was going to win in the manga, and in the anime all he did was take Frieza off guard. He did no real damage. I agree he could of been stronger, there is just no proof of it.

Yeah, story wise it's strange that Roshi was weaker than Crane, I also got confused with that, but that's how it seems to be. Also, Buff Roshi from the 21st Budokai can easily be as strong, if not stronger than Crane.
There's also the fact that the Crane stayed training while Roshi didn't that's why Roshi from the 21st Budokai could easily be weaker, as shown in his fight with Goku.
But it was clearly said that 21st Roshi is as strong as Goku in his normal state. Also, remember that Roshi from 22nd Budokai to DBS is much stronger than 21st Budokai Roshi, so therefore his buff form can be stronger.

21st Roshi < Tao Pai Pai < Post Korin Goku/ < Crane <= 21st Buff Roshi < 22nd Roshi << Frieza's Soldiers << 22nd Buff Roshi

Like I pointed out 21st Goku can't be equal with 21st Roshi because a Roshi who couldn't even shoot a kamehameha anymore still beat him. Also Toriyama likes to retcon people's power all of the time.

Yeah, but the way Goku fought Akkuman, it's seems that Akkuman was < Tao Pai Pai, since Tao at least managed to fight more against Goku and Roshi wasn't able to see neither Akkuman's or Goku's movements. Roshi could easily be at Mummy Man's strength at most.

Mummy Man <= 21st Roshi < Akkuman < Tao Pai Pai < Post Korin Goku

Roshi saw Akkuman's movements just fine. The only movement he didn't see was Goku's final serious attack.
Both Tao and Roshi are above Akkuman. Also Goku took a full force kick from Gohan with just his body and it did no damage. Gohan, Tao, and 21st Roshi should all be in the same tier. All of them are above Akkuman, and all are below post Korin Goku.

But just because Roshi showed more resistance by battling Goku doesn't mean he should be around Tao's strenght. Tao Pai Pai was leagues above Goku, while Roshi was battling equal against him.

Roshi kept almost beating Goku, but Goku kept getting lucky. Also like I said you can't compare a tournament fight to an assassination. Hit had a lot of trouble with Goku in the tournament, but easily won outside of the tournament.

I was talking about 21st Budokai Roshi, not the DBS Roshi who is much stronger.

DBS Roshi is equal to 22nd Roshi as far as we know. Toriyama just likes Roshi to be strong, so he will stay strong. If he went up against Tao or Crane in the manga he would win because Toriyama would want him to win. Just like Beerus would beat SSB kaioken x10 Goku even though it doesn't make sense. He would probably even beat SSB Vegito.

I would like to see the guide in which that's said. I agree that Tao was weaker than Crane, but I don't think the gap was that small.
Also, Mr Satan was going to die against the bullet if it wasn't for Majin Buu's healing. Roshi and Krillin were bleeding, but they weren't in a situation of death.

Hmm I can't seem to find where it was stated Tao was slightly weaker than Crane maybe I imagined that. Though he should be close in strength. He was also highly respected by Tien and after getting his cyborg parts he was even stronger than Crane.

Also Roshi didn't think Goku would lose to Chappa. The only time he thought Goku was in trouble was when he was in the air.
Ya Chappa is probably above Satan, but not by a crazy amount. He might be slightly above Videl. I mean his greatest feat was beating a bunch of nobodies without getting hit. Even 21st Krillin could of done that. Maybe even beginning of series Goku. I mean Goku was strong enough to lift a small car and one shot a large bear bandit. That already puts him above pretty much most contestants at the budokai.

[Hellspawn28]

Bio Broli vs. Copy Vegeta

Rules:

- Equal power
- No Water near the fight
- No outside help

Battle of the clones. Who wins?

[dragonball0900]

Nobody was sure he was going to win in the manga, and in the anime all he did was take Frieza off guard. He did no real damage. I agree he could of been stronger, there is just no proof of it.

Yeah there's no proof for it, but judging by the boost on speed that Piccolo has without those weights, his chances of winning there are huge unless Frieza transforms.

Like I pointed out 21st Goku can't be equal with 21st Roshi because a Roshi who couldn't even shoot a kamehameha anymore still beat him. Also Toriyama likes to retcon people's power all of the time.

There's something very important to point out that I forgot to mention. The reason Roshi won the tournament was because of Goku's size:


<Full manga pages with bootleg hosting site URL removed by moderator>

That's why Roshi, despite having less energy than Goku, was able to win. His attack did more impact than Goku's because of their size differences. Roshi was nearly losing the battle too, since, like you said, he was having less energy than Goku's. Roshi was struggling more throughout the battle than Goku until the kick happened.

Roshi saw Akkuman's movements just fine. The only movement he didn't see was Goku's final serious attack.
Both Tao and Roshi are above Akkuman. Also Goku took a full force kick from Gohan with just his body and it did no damage. Gohan, Tao, and 21st Roshi should all be in the same tier. All of them are above Akkuman, and all are below post Korin Goku.

But Roshi was impressed that someone was able to beat Akkuman. Also Roshi was nervous when he saw Akkuman being the 4th fighter when there was another 4th fighter actually missing.
Yeah, Gohan and Tao are nearly the same tier, but for the reasons I said, Roshi is not, unless he uses the Buff form.

Roshi kept almost beating Goku, but Goku kept getting lucky. Also like I said you can't compare a tournament fight to an assassination. Hit had a lot of trouble with Goku in the tournament, but easily won outside of the tournament.

The difference is that there was evidence on Hit being much powerful than he actually was, it was stated clearly in the Universe 6 tournament that Hit wasn't using everything he had, since it was forbidden to kill.
Here is different, Roshi never said he was holding back, and because of the reason I said here just above in my post, Roshi's size had the advantage over Goku, despite having less energy than Goku.

DBS Roshi is equal to 22nd Roshi as far as we know. Toriyama just likes Roshi to be strong, so he will stay strong. If he went up against Tao or Crane in the manga he would win because Toriyama would want him to win. Just like Beerus would beat SSB kaioken x10 Goku even though it doesn't make sense. He would probably even beat SSB Vegito.

Yeah, that's true. But that wasn't the case during in the 21st Budokai era.

Hmm I can't seem to find where it was stated Tao was slightly weaker than Crane maybe I imagined that. Though he should be close in strength. He was also highly respected by Tien and after getting his cyborg parts he was even stronger than Crane.

Also Roshi didn't think Goku would lose to Chappa. The only time he thought Goku was in trouble was when he was in the air.
Ya Chappa is probably above Satan, but not by a crazy amount. He might be slightly above Videl. I mean his greatest feat was beating a bunch of nobodies without getting hit. Even 21st Krillin could of done that. Maybe even beginning of series Goku. I mean Goku was strong enough to lift a small car and one shot a large bear bandit. That already puts him above pretty much most contestants at the budokai.

Yeah but that was when Tao was still alive, maybe Tien just improved a lot during those 3 years. He has to be, after all, inferior to Tao at the time.

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Yeah, Roshi didn't think Goku was going to lose, but he did say that it was going to be a tough fight, despite the fact that he saw Goku's strenght against Baba's fighters.
No, I don't think beggining of series Goku could've done it, after all he was able to fight Yamcha, who was also on an average tournament fighter tier, as shown in the 21st Budokai. Many fighters on the Budokai would also be able to do what Goku did too (lifting cars, one shooting a large bear bandit). Also, what if Chappa fought fighters like Giran, with his techniques, or Bacterian with his smell. Nam was able to fight against Goku, so maybe there were other fighters who are at that level too that Chappa could fight as well. The 21st Budokai characters were very strong at the time, it was only the 22nd Budokai where Goku and the rest became abominably strong.

[dragon boss z]

Yeah there's no proof for it, but judging by the boost on speed that Piccolo has without those weights, his chances of winning there are huge unless Frieza transforms.

He would probably have the speed advantage, but Frieza would still probably have the power advantage.

There's something very important to point out that I forgot to mention. The reason Roshi won the tournament was because of Goku's size:

That's why Roshi, despite having less energy than Goku, was able to win. His attack did more impact than Goku's because of their size differences. Roshi was nearly losing the battle too, since, like you said, he was having less energy than Goku's. Roshi was struggling more throughout the battle than Goku until the kick happened.

They kicked with the same strength, but his leg was longer so it did more damage. But since they were the same strength even though Roshi had less energy that means Roshi was stronger.

But Roshi was impressed that someone was able to beat Akkuman. Also Roshi was nervous when he saw Akkuman being the 4th fighter when there was another 4th fighter actually missing.
Yeah, Gohan and Tao are nearly the same tier, but for the reasons I said, Roshi is not, unless he uses the Buff form.

I don't think Roshi was surprised Akkuman was defeated, he was just surprised how Goku stomped him.

The difference is that there was evidence on Hit being much powerful than he actually was, it was stated clearly in the Universe 6 tournament that Hit wasn't using everything he had, since it was forbidden to kill.
Here is different, Roshi never said he was holding back, and because of the reason I said here just above in my post, Roshi's size had the advantage over Goku, despite having less energy than Goku.

Roshi having enough energy to bust the moon is enough evidence he was holding back. Also it has been stated multiple times throughout the manga Roshi was the strongest under the heavens. Besides Kami, Popo, and Piccolo, Roshi was the undisputed strongest on Earth.

Yeah, that's true. But that wasn't the case during in the 21st Budokai era.

True.

Yeah, Roshi didn't think Goku was going to lose, but he did say that it was going to be a tough fight, despite the fact that he saw Goku's strenght against Baba's fighters.

He just said he wanted to see how much he improved. King Chappa would maybe be around mummy to Akkuman level at best.

No, I don't think beggining of series Goku could've done it, after all he was able to fight Yamcha, who was also on an average tournament fighter tier, as shown in the 21st Budokai.

True, but Goku was hungry then.

[quoute]Many fighters on the Budokai would also be able to do what Goku did too (lifting cars, one shooting a large bear bandit).[/quote]

Maybe. If there were so many strong people how did Mr. Satan win the budokai?

Also, what if Chappa fought fighters like Giran, with his techniques, or Bacterian with his smell. Nam was able to fight against Goku, so maybe there were other fighters who are at that level too that Chappa could fight as well. The 21st Budokai characters were very strong at the time, it was only the 22nd Budokai where Goku and the rest became abominably strong.

True, but I think Chappa would have trouble with Nam, and maybe Giran. He would stomp Bacterian though unless the smell effects him.

[dragonball0900]

They kicked with the same strength, but his leg was longer so it did more damage. But since they were the same strength even though Roshi had less energy that means Roshi was stronger.

After the kamehameha against the moon happened, Goku had the big advantage and better stamina, Roshi was about to lose the tournament if it wasn't for the kick he made. Also the kicks weren't the same strenght, Roshi's was stronger only because of his bigger size, not because of the strenght. Roshi even admitted in the manga that he won only because of Goku's small size, if kept fighting normally against Goku, Roshi would've lost easily. Remember that after the kamehameha against the moon event happened, Roshi was in full disadvantage as Goku shot his weak kamehameha and this happened:

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Goku nearly throw Roshi out of the ring, he was clearly weaker than Goku at that point, they were not fighting equally after the kamehameha against the moon event, Goku had the advantage, if it wasn't for the kick and the size differences later on.

Roshi having enough energy to bust the moon is enough evidence he was holding back. Also it has been stated multiple times throughout the manga Roshi was the strongest under the heavens. Besides Kami, Popo, and Piccolo, Roshi was the undisputed strongest on Earth.

Roshi was the strongest in the past at his peak, not his weaker version in the 21st Budokai. During the 21st Budokai era he has the Buff form which can still make him being the strongest on Earth.

He just said he wanted to see how much he improved. King Chappa would maybe be around mummy to Akkuman level at best.

But he did saw his movements being so fast, Roshi was surprised of Goku against Akkuman and Mummy Man. Also Roshi has knowledge about Akkuman, he knows that Akkuman won 2 Budokais, and also Roshi saw Akkuman been beating by Goku very easily. I doubt that Chappa is below Akkuman, if Roshi himself witnessed Goku's speed and strong power against Akkuman and later wanting to see how he improved. If Chappa was below Akkuman, Roshi wouldn't be curious on how much he improved since already knows Goku defeated Akkuman earlier.

True, but Goku was hungry then.

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Yamcha was able to touch Goku a couple of times during their later fight.


[quoute]Maybe. If there were so many strong people how did Mr. Satan win the budokai?[/quote]
A lot of years happened after the 23rd Budokai, and the Announcer also said that the level of strenght of participants has declined, making Mr Satan the obvious champion.

True, but I think Chappa would have trouble with Nam, and maybe Giran. He would stomp Bacterian though unless the smell effects him.

But if there are high possibilities that some of those fighters Chappa fought were at Bacterian or even Nam tier, how could he won the tournament without being touched by any of his opponents? Chappa should be much stronger than that.

[DSB]

Chi Chi [at peak] vs Videl [at peak , No Flight]

who wins ?

[DanielSSJ]

Chi Chi [at peak] vs Videl [at peak , No Flight]

who wins ?

Same result as the Chichi vs Videl fight, except that Videl lasts slightly longer, given that she's somewhat stronger than her dad. Chichi is still way to powerful for her to defeat.

[dragon boss z]

After the kamehameha against the moon happened, Goku had the big advantage and better stamina, Roshi was about to lose the tournament if it wasn't for the kick he made. Also the kicks weren't the same strenght, Roshi's was stronger only because of his bigger size, not because of the strenght. Roshi even admitted in the manga that he won only because of Goku's small size, if kept fighting normally against Goku, Roshi would've lost easily. Remember that after the kamehameha against the moon event happened, Roshi was in full disadvantage as Goku shot his weak kamehameha and this happened:

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Goku nearly throw Roshi out of the ring, he was clearly weaker than Goku at that point, they were not fighting equally after the kamehameha against the moon event, Goku had the advantage, if it wasn't for the kick and the size differences later on.

I know his kick was stronger because of his size. but if there wasn't a size difference their kicks would of been about the same.

Roshi was the strongest in the past at his peak, not his weaker version in the 21st Budokai. During the 21st Budokai era he has the Buff form which can still make him being the strongest on Earth.

Possibly.


[quoute]
A lot of years happened after the 23rd Budokai, and the Announcer also said that the level of strenght of participants has declined, making Mr Satan the obvious champion.[/quote]

I would say Mr. Satan should be as strong as that one actor/fighter kid that Goku fought in the first round of the 22nd budokai. Also stronger than ran fan.

But if there are high possibilities that some of those fighters Chappa fought were at Bacterian or even Nam tier, how could he won the tournament without being touched by any of his opponents? Chappa should be much stronger than that.

I agree he could one shot Bacterian. Nam was only there to save his village. People that strong probably usually don't go there. I do think Chappa is stronger, but not by too much.

[Ki Breaker]

Chi Chi [at peak] vs Videl [at peak , No Flight]

who wins ?

ChiChi wins hands down, she is strong, physically and mentally.