Canon or not? That is the(my) question.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:36 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:
Dayspring wrote:I say the wrong Trunks because the Trunks who DID go back in time was 2-3 years older than the one who appeared in movie 9.
Can you really tell?

In Anime artwork, not really. In manga artwork, yes. In the final chapter he appears in and kills Cell, you can really tell he aged 3 years and has some much more adult-like features than before. His face is much more squared off and his features are a tad rougher.

Anonymous Friend · Post by **Anonymous Friend** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:50 pm

Dayspring wrote:
Conan the SSJ wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Bleh. Movie 9 is not canon. The wrong Trunks is in it. XP
Hmm, because he grew his hair back out during his last trip to the past? Or because Goten gets no dialogue reference; despite the fact Ox King's absence is an obvious implying that he's looking after him? I think you're being way too picky with movie 9. IMO, it's pretty crucial in explaining why Goku doesn't teleport to stop Buu from killing his friends on the lookout before Gotenks escapes the ROSAT, because just like when he tryied to stop Bojack, he found he was still bound to the Other world with no life-energy and could only remain in the living world for a very short time (hence fading away instead of teleporting while telling Gohan to stop being childish against Bojack). Considering how pissed Goku looked and why he didn't just put his fingers on his forehead and transport to Earth, I just go with the idea he's thinking "It'd be futile, I'd last no longer in that world than the encounter with Bojack...!!"
Er...no. ^_^;;

I say the wrong Trunks because the Trunks who DID go back in time was 2-3 years older than the one who appeared in movie 9. I still think they put the younger Trunks in for the reason Magica mentioned.

Speaking of Mirai Trunks: why didn't he kill Cell in the embryonic stage once he returned to his own timeline? :S

Wasn't Cell already loose by the time he got back? And instead of running around looking for him, Trunks decided to wait for Cell to find him.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:37 pm

Anonymous Friend wrote:
Dayspring wrote:
Conan the SSJ wrote: Hmm, because he grew his hair back out during his last trip to the past? Or because Goten gets no dialogue reference; despite the fact Ox King's absence is an obvious implying that he's looking after him? I think you're being way too picky with movie 9. IMO, it's pretty crucial in explaining why Goku doesn't teleport to stop Buu from killing his friends on the lookout before Gotenks escapes the ROSAT, because just like when he tryied to stop Bojack, he found he was still bound to the Other world with no life-energy and could only remain in the living world for a very short time (hence fading away instead of teleporting while telling Gohan to stop being childish against Bojack). Considering how pissed Goku looked and why he didn't just put his fingers on his forehead and transport to Earth, I just go with the idea he's thinking "It'd be futile, I'd last no longer in that world than the encounter with Bojack...!!"
Er...no. ^_^;;

I say the wrong Trunks because the Trunks who DID go back in time was 2-3 years older than the one who appeared in movie 9. I still think they put the younger Trunks in for the reason Magica mentioned.

Speaking of Mirai Trunks: why didn't he kill Cell in the embryonic stage once he returned to his own timeline? :S
Wasn't Cell already loose by the time he got back? And instead of running around looking for him, Trunks decided to wait for Cell to find him.

Nope. It would still be until 788 until he reaches Imperfect stage. Trunks defeated his androids in 785. The reason he never went after Cell earlier is because he didn't know about him until he went back in time. But why not go after him between 785 and 788? Now a bunch of animals and people got killed for nothing.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:07 pm

How could he find him? Cell would've just done the same hit-and-run tactics from before.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:10 pm

mAcChaos wrote:How could he find him? Cell would've just done the same hit-and-run tactics from before.

In his larval state: Trunks now knows where the Gero's lab is.

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:55 pm

Duo wrote:In Anime artwork, not really. In manga artwork, yes.

And we're talking about a movie, here, right? ^^;

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Tue May 01, 2007 3:28 am

Olivier Hague wrote:
Duo wrote:In Anime artwork, not really. In manga artwork, yes.
And we're talking about a movie, here, right? ^^;

It all ties together, but I was pretty sure we were addressing the Trunks that kills Cell whom is supposed to be about the same as the Trunks in movie 9, but for some reason his design is reverted and modified for the movie rather than being based off the one he is in his last Manga appearance.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue May 01, 2007 12:52 pm

Duo wrote:
Olivier Hague wrote:
Duo wrote:In Anime artwork, not really. In manga artwork, yes.
And we're talking about a movie, here, right? ^^;
It all ties together, but I was pretty sure we were addressing the Trunks that kills Cell whom is supposed to be about the same as the Trunks in movie 9, but for some reason his design is reverted and modified for the movie rather than being based off the one he is in his last Manga appearance.

To put things into perspective:

-Trunks in the Cell Games is 20 years old.

-Movie 9 Trunks looks like he's a year older than Cell Games Trunks, ie: 21.

-Anime Trunks who killed Cell in his own timeline is 23 when he goes back in time.

-Manga Trunks yadda is also 23.

-23 year-old Anime Trunks simply looks like a "hardened" version of 20 year-old Trunks. As a result, he looks even younger than movie 9 Trunks, so movie 9 Trunks ends up being the wrong "anime Trunks" for that movie.

-23 year-old Manga Trunks looks 2-3 years older than movie 9 Trunks, so movie 9 Trunks STILL ends up being the wrong Trunks for that movie.

Now do you all get my point?

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Tue May 01, 2007 1:14 pm

I got your point the first time around... It's just that I wouldn't put too much weight into "how old Trunks appears to be". ^^;

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue May 01, 2007 1:26 pm

Olivier Hague wrote:I got your point the first time around... It's just that I wouldn't put too much weight into "how old Trunks appears to be". ^^;

Oh. Well my point about the age of Trunks is that it ends up contradicting the events of the anime AND manga, which is why I put so much emphasis on it. Obviously I think it's just a plothole, but one that lumps it into the group of movies like 2, 3, etc.

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:39 pm

Dayspring wrote:Well my point about the age of Trunks is that it ends up contradicting the events of the anime AND manga, which is why I put so much emphasis on it.

Actually, it just contradicts the manga; as Duo pointed out, the anime didn't take the same route of edging out Trunks' facial expression to appear in the same design as the manga. And it isn't that far a stretch to think Trunks stayed in the past for his last visit long enough to grow his hair back out, as it was his last trip to see all his friends and family (Vegeta, Grandparents, Gohan, etc.). Ya' know, when I make my attempts of fitting the movies, I just do so with the anime; I keep them out of the domain of the manga. You seem to be thinking too hard into some of these movies because of obvious contradictions they'd have with said format, but with the anime, certain explanations can let them loosely slide by. It all just depends on a person's point of view on the matter, like how I view the anime and manga (albeit very close) taking place in two different universes so explaining some of Toei's own actions that contradict Toriyama's work makes sense (Kargo's death, Trunks' first SSJ transformation, necessary visual traits for SSJ2, set of Namekian fingers, Yamcha's defeat at the hands of the Mummy in original DB's Baba tournament, etc. etc. ETC.!!!).

SSJmole · Post by **SSJmole** » Tue May 01, 2007 2:42 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote: Trunks' first SSJ transformation

how was that contradicted?

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Tue May 01, 2007 3:12 pm

SSJmole wrote:
Conan the SSJ wrote: Trunks' first SSJ transformation

how was that contradicted?

The manga, in essence Toriyama, makes it clear that Trunks was already a Super Saiyan before Gohan's death. However in the anime, as seen in the Trunks TV special, Gohan's death itself triggered Trunks' first transformation. As you can see, big wedge between the two formats of the future story.

By the way, please make it a point to capitalize at the start of each of your sentences.

SSJmole · Post by **SSJmole** » Tue May 01, 2007 4:04 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:
SSJmole wrote:
Conan the SSJ wrote: Trunks' first SSJ transformation

how was that contradicted?
The manga, in essence Toriyama, makes it clear that Trunks was already a Super Saiyan before Gohan's death. However in the anime, as seen in the Trunks TV special, Gohan's death itself triggered Trunks' first transformation. As you can see, big wedge between the two formats of the future story.

By the way, please make it a point to capitalize at the start of each of your sentences.

Ok I get you now. I thought you meant something else but before I posted my long winded reason why it worked I wanted to be sure.

I keep having a debate with a friend of mine about whether or not Trunks should of transformed in film or been born a SSJ (only in movie/anime universe not manga). I explain why I think it works and he never agrees.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed May 02, 2007 1:44 pm

Conan the SSJ wrote:
Dayspring wrote:Well my point about the age of Trunks is that it ends up contradicting the events of the anime AND manga, which is why I put so much emphasis on it.
Actually, it just contradicts the manga; as Duo pointed out, the anime didn't take the same route of edging out Trunks' facial expression to appear in the same design as the manga. And it isn't that far a stretch to think Trunks stayed in the past for his last visit long enough to grow his hair back out, as it was his last trip to see all his friends and family (Vegeta, Grandparents, Gohan, etc.). Ya' know, when I make my attempts of fitting the movies, I just do so with the anime; I keep them out of the domain of the manga. You seem to be thinking too hard into some of these movies because of obvious contradictions they'd have with said format, but with the anime, certain explanations can let them loosely slide by. It all just depends on a person's point of view on the matter, like how I view the anime and manga (albeit very close) taking place in two different universes so explaining some of Toei's own actions that contradict Toriyama's work makes sense (Kargo's death, Trunks' first SSJ transformation, necessary visual traits for SSJ2, set of Namekian fingers, Yamcha's defeat at the hands of the Mummy in original DB's Baba tournament, etc. etc. ETC.!!!).

And, as you already know, so do I. That's why I always say GT, movie 1 and the Trunks TV special take place in the anime-verse.

Just to clarify, I mostly use the manga as a source when debating because I have the complete collection in the other room to double-check if I can't recall the fact. Meanwhile I have little-to-no anime outside the movies. If something is monumentally different and causes such contradictions as to make the story confusing (like the Goku spacepod revelation a few years back), then I admit I will always just say "LALALALA!!! ANIME SCREW UP!! NEVER HAPPENED!!"

Back to the topic at hand, although YOU are the first person to ever argue the long hair in a plausible scenario (most people try to contradict the narrator and say he simply went back in the three years prior to killing Cell), I guess we'll simply have to agree to disagree. Personally there's just too many "well it's not thaaaaat much of a stretch ifs". I see absolutely no reason for the sword to be there, although it is plausible someone mended it for him. I see no reason for him to grow out his hair (if he can cut in the future, he has the ability to cut it in the present too

), but it is plausible that he simply wanted to look sexy for Magica and Meri. It's also plausible that Bulma's explanaton to Chichi didn't include Cell because she was simply generalizing, but I didn't get that impression.

As for the difference in animation styles, since your hair argument is plausible, it's possible that movie 9 Trunks is actually 24 and not 21 like everybody thinks. Just food for thought.

Phenomenol · Post by **Phenomenol** » Sat May 26, 2007 6:47 pm

Akira Toriyama said that he considers the movies in a "different dimension." Obviously that should spell not canon in Toriyama's eye's.

Dragonball Manga/Anime is canon, movies are non-canon.

raz1337 · Post by **raz1337** » Sat May 26, 2007 9:17 pm

More discussion over the multiple timelines. *pulls hair out*

Olivier Hague · Post by **Olivier Hague** » Sat May 26, 2007 9:41 pm

Phenomenol wrote:Dragonball Manga/Anime is canon, movies are non-canon.

But the TV series sometimes refers to the movies, so...

Conan the SSJ · Post by **Conan the SSJ** » Sat May 26, 2007 10:19 pm

Phenomenol wrote:Akira Toriyama said that he considers the movies in a "different dimension." Obviously that should spell not canon in Toriyama's eye's.

In the words of Oliver Hague; source please?

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Sun May 27, 2007 9:53 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:
Phenomenol wrote:Akira Toriyama said that he considers the movies in a "different dimension." Obviously that should spell not canon in Toriyama's eye's.
In the words of Oliver Hague; source please?

I'd like a source too. In the one-shot "the anime and me," he says he considers everything Dragonball to be official, ie canon. There are also instances in the anime that refer to movies 1 and 3 just off the top of my head.