Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[brett wheeler]

Well that's all that King Kai said, he can become a Super Saiyan God without the help of others. That doesn't really have anything to do with strength.

It really kind of does though. Super Saiyan Blue isn't Super Saiyan God, but the latter is what King Kai said. King Kai wouldn't specifically use the term "Super Saiyan God" if he was just talking about God ki or being a God, he's explicitly referring to the form. It seems pretty obvious to me that SSG is contextually being used as a benchmark here - one that only SSB could meet/surpass, hence the narrator later stating that Blue surpassed even Super Saiyan God.

All the narrative said that Goku has surpassed Super Saiyan God and reached a new form of Super Saiyan, which is true since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God.

The narrator stated that Goku reached a new form surpassing even Super Saiyan God. I don't know how else you could interpret that. If his previously unlocked yellow Super Saiyan forms already surpassed Super Saiyan God then the narrator's statement is unnecessarily redundant. That's ZombieVito's whole point and it absolutely stands.

ssg and ssb are 2 different forms as goku put it ssb is a saiyan with the power of ssg that is also a ssj, witch is hard to interpret but from what I can tell base goku isnt near ssg nor is ssj1-3 I just assume base goku is about the same lvl as the likes of buuhan to ssj vegito possibly ssj2 vegito by the goku black arc and ssj1-3 still doesn't put them in the realm of the gods. So I guess the explanation of ssb could better be said to be a saiyan who has the power of a ssg using ssg to go ssj, meaning they use the power of ssg and figured out how to add ssj to it so they can become even stronger than before. Basically its like whis explained in dokkon goku says " I cant just keep giong ssg all the time ", then whis replies with (I cant remember exactly but basically its something like ) "no you already absorbed the form all you need to do is train with the form and figure out how to add ssj" and then goku calls it confusing and then says " so basically ill be a saiyan with the power of ssg that is also a ssj", then beerus comes in with " we'll just call it super saiyan god super saiyan". So basically the form is very complicated

[HeroR]

ssg and ssb are 2 different forms as goku put it ssb is a saiyan with the power of ssg that is also a ssj, witch is hard to interpret but from what I can tell base goku isnt near ssg nor is ssj1-3 I just assume base goku is about the same lvl as the likes of buuhan to ssj vegito possibly ssj2 vegito by the goku black arc and ssj1-3 still doesn't put them in the realm of the gods. So I guess the explanation of ssb could better be said to be a saiyan who has the power of a ssg using ssg to go ssj, meaning they use the power of ssg and figured out how to add ssj to it so they can become even stronger than before. Basically its like whis explained in dokkon goku says " I cant just keep giong ssg all the time ", then whis replies with (I cant remember exactly but basically its something like ) "no you already absorbed the form all you need to do is train with the form and figure out how to add ssj" and then goku calls it confusing and then says " so basically ill be a saiyan with the power of ssg that is also a ssj", then beerus comes in with " we'll just call it super saiyan god super saiyan". So basically the form is very complicated

Normal Super Saiyan is at least as strong as Super Saiyan God since in both the show and movie, Beerus said that despite losing his god form, Goku didn't drop in power. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just Super Saiyan with god ki, which is stronger than Super Saiyan God. Goku, after he absorbed godhood, kept the power, but didn't have god ki since he could be sense by everyone.

[Marlowe89]

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God and even the stronger Super Saiyan after Goku absorbed its power. And the Japanese some times do redundant things, so what else is new? Trunks called Super Saiyan 3, an ascended Super Saiyan that has surpassed an ascended Super Saiyan.

Trunks' description of Super Saiyan 3 might sound redundant but it's certainly not semantically redundant - a Super Saiyan ascended from an ascended Super Saiyan is exactly what Super Saiyan 3 is, and that statement doesn't leave out anything vital to its intended definition.

On the other hand, the statement that Goku discovered a form that surpasses even Super Saiyan God (and the word "even" is actually used in the translation) is obviously a comparison that was meant to sound like an accomplishment. But this never would have been mentioned if Goku was already fully capable of leaving SSG in the dust with transformations he already had because that would have made the whole statement both completely misleading and entirely trivial. You could probably work around this by assuming Goku's only go-to forms were originally meant to be base and Super Saiyan Blue after Whis' training and that the whole thing was later retconned, but then you would have to acknowledge that multiple interpretations are fair game at that point.

[hiperion]

Is this the current state of power scaling(only saiyans):
1.Blue Vegito
2.Rose Goku(Black)
3.Super Trunks-False SSB or whatever it's called
4.Blue Vegeta-After 6 months in Time Chamber
5.Blue Goku-Currently weaker then Vegeta
6.Super Saiyan God Goku-Whis form is weaker than the Blue form
7.SSJ Vegito-No explanation needed(?)
8.SSJ Gogeta-No explanation needed(?)
9.Rage SSJ2 Vegeta-During the fighr with Beerus
10.Ultimate Gohan-In his prime he was stronger than both Gotenks and Goku
11.SSJ3 Gotenks-I think it was said to be stronger than Goku
12.SSJ3 Goku
13.Majin SSJ2 Vegeta
14.SSJ2 Goku
15.SSJ2 Vegeta
16.Goku Black-I'm torn here,wheter i should put him higher
17.SSJ Gotenks
18.LSSJ Broly-He's not that strong anymore
19.SSJ2 Gohan
20.SSJ Goku
21.SSJ Vegeta
22.SSJ Cabbe
The list probably needs more adjustments but it's close enough(?).Anyway tell me what do you guys think.

[HeroR]

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is stronger than Super Saiyan God and even the stronger Super Saiyan after Goku absorbed its power. And the Japanese some times do redundant things, so what else is new? Trunks called Super Saiyan 3, an ascended Super Saiyan that has surpassed an ascended Super Saiyan.

Trunks' description of Super Saiyan 3 might sound redundant but it's certainly not semantically redundant - a Super Saiyan ascended from an ascended Super Saiyan is exactly what Super Saiyan 3 is, and that statement doesn't leave out anything vital to its intended definition.

On the other hand, the statement that Goku discovered a form that surpasses even Super Saiyan God (and the word "even" is actually used in the translation) is obviously a comparison that was meant to sound like an accomplishment. But this never would have been mentioned if Goku was already fully capable of leaving SSG in the dust with transformations he already had because that would have made the whole statement both completely misleading and entirely trivial. You could probably work around this by assuming Goku's only go-to forms were originally meant to be base and Super Saiyan Blue after Whis' training and that the whole thing was later retconned, but then you would have to acknowledge that multiple interpretations are fair game at that point.

It is an accomplishment since Goku surpassed the level he was at when he fought Beerus, even after he pushed Super Saiyan God to its max and absorbed its power. It's easier to say and understand to say 'he surpassed Super Saiyan God' vs. 'he surpassed Super Saiyan God after he absorbed it as a Super Saiyan after fighting Beerus'. And it's easy to compare Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since they're both God forms. And the narrative is also saying that Goku found a form that surpassed Super Saiyan God.

[brett wheeler]

ssg and ssb are 2 different forms as goku put it ssb is a saiyan with the power of ssg that is also a ssj, witch is hard to interpret but from what I can tell base goku isnt near ssg nor is ssj1-3 I just assume base goku is about the same lvl as the likes of buuhan to ssj vegito possibly ssj2 vegito by the goku black arc and ssj1-3 still doesn't put them in the realm of the gods. So I guess the explanation of ssb could better be said to be a saiyan who has the power of a ssg using ssg to go ssj, meaning they use the power of ssg and figured out how to add ssj to it so they can become even stronger than before. Basically its like whis explained in dokkon goku says " I cant just keep giong ssg all the time ", then whis replies with (I cant remember exactly but basically its something like ) "no you already absorbed the form all you need to do is train with the form and figure out how to add ssj" and then goku calls it confusing and then says " so basically ill be a saiyan with the power of ssg that is also a ssj", then beerus comes in with " we'll just call it super saiyan god super saiyan". So basically the form is very complicated

Normal Super Saiyan is at least as strong as Super Saiyan God since in both the show and movie, Beerus said that despite losing his god form, Goku didn't drop in power. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just Super Saiyan with god ki, which is stronger than Super Saiyan God. Goku, after he absorbed godhood, kept the power, but didn't have god ki since he could be sense by everyone.

why did tht have to be permanent in fact they imply the opposite threw out the fight with goku and beerus acting as if his power was fluctuating and not stable. I will agree that it gave him a boost but I don't think to that lvl everything points to goku and vegeta base-ssj3 being strong but not on ssg lvl in fact ssg lvl fighters would one shot gotenks without even trying not beat the living hell out of him. ssj-ssj2 vegito is more than generous enough for there feats to be possible but still be weak enough to consider a majin buu to ult gohan lvl fighter to be strong. also this covers piccolo in terms of power as well seeing as he was training and had the upper hand against a gohan who looked to be ultimate again and even implies he is above it even by a little so piccolo would be getting close to there base at least so him being able to stall frost is actually a possibility now. also makes trunks power scaling more sensical ( other than the ssj2 trunks vs ssb lvl fighters bs nothing fixes that) as he trained with the z-sword and then got his ass handed to him by black plus probably trained before black of course he would reach a high lvl with all this as black is leagues above him the zenkies he would receive would probably be pretty noticeable ( super has been focusing on zenkies more then the last half of z did ) so him being on par with goku or vegeta isnt out of the question.

[Marlowe89]

It is an accomplishment since Goku surpassed the level he was at when he fought Beerus, even after he pushed Super Saiyan God to its max and absorbed its power.

The narrator wasn't attributing Goku's fight against Beerus to his comparison though, he was explicitly and directly referring to the actual form Super Saiyan God. Under your interpretation, it's not at all an accomplishment that Super Saiyan Blue would surpass Super Saiyan God if all these other forms already surpassed the latter prior to the discovery of Super Saiyan Blue. By that reasoning, SSG is absolutely nothing special and doesn't need to be touted as a benchmark for anything.

You're also assuming the narrator would have needed to say something overly convoluted like "he surpassed Super Saiyan God after he absorbed it as a Super Saiyan" when something as simple as "Goku discovered his strongest Super Saiyan form yet" would have sufficed for what the narrator was trying to convey if we assume that Blue > 3 > 2 > God. It's incredibly misleading to tout Super Saiyan Blue as a form that surpasses "even" Super Saiyan God if Goku could have just left it behind by transforming into Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

And it's easy to compare Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since they're both God forms.

It's easy to compare any Super Saiyan form. Super Saiyan God was said to be even stronger than Super Saiyan 3 during BoG, desite only one of those forms using God ki. There's always some difference in power between different Super Saiyan forms regardless of the type of ki used.

[HeroR]

why did tht have to be permanent in fact they imply the opposite threw out the fight with goku and beerus acting as if his power was fluctuating and not stable. I will agree that it gave him a boost but I don't think to that lvl everything points to goku and vegeta base-ssj3 being strong but not on ssg lvl in fact ssg lvl fighters would one shot gotenks without even trying not beat the living hell out of him. ssj-ssj2 vegito is more than generous enough for there feats to be possible but still be weak enough to consider a majin buu to ult gohan lvl fighter to be strong. also this covers piccolo in terms of power as well seeing as he was training and had the upper hand against a gohan who looked to be ultimate again and even implies he is above it even by a little so piccolo would be getting close to there base at least so him being able to stall frost is actually a possibility now. also makes trunks power scaling more sensical ( other than the ssj2 trunks vs ssb lvl fighters bs nothing fixes that) as he trained with the z-sword and then got his ass handed to him by black plus probably trained before black of course he would reach a high lvl with all this as black is leagues above him the zenkies he would receive would probably be pretty noticeable ( super has been focusing on zenkies more then the last half of z did ) so him being on par with goku or vegeta isnt out of the question.

It was never stated or implied that Goku lost any of the power gained from Super Saiyan God, or even that his power fluctuated or was unstable. It's the opposite. Krillin called Goku stronger than ever in Episode 16 and Whis tells Vegeta that he would never catch Goku at the rate he was going in the same episode despite getting stronger. It also took Vegeta six months of training with Whis to be even with Goku. Goku was also able to take hits from Beerus in his base form several times while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted by Beerus with no effort. The same with Ultimate Gohan.

It's impossible to do a power comparison with Vegetto since he never went all out and we don't even know what Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto can do or how he compared to Beerus other than Goku saying that fusing won't work and Super Saiyan God was a level that Goku didn't know existed.

Vegeta did practically knocked Gotenks out in one hit and also caused him to defuses like Beerus did in the BOG Saga.

Goku didn't note a major power increase in Piccolo and it's a fan assumption that he was sparring with Ultimate Gohan. Even then, we don't know how much Gohan was holding back. Piccolo can't even sense God ki so he's nowhere near Goku or Vegeta's base forms.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It is an accomplishment since Goku surpassed the level he was at when he fought Beerus, even after he pushed Super Saiyan God to its max and absorbed its power.

The narrator wasn't attributing Goku's fight against Beerus to his comparison though, he was explicitly and directly referring to the actual form Super Saiyan God. Under your interpretation, it's not at all an accomplishment that Super Saiyan Blue would surpass Super Saiyan God if all these other forms already surpassed the latter prior to the discovery of Super Saiyan Blue. By that reasoning, SSG is absolutely nothing special and doesn't need to be touted as a benchmark for anything.

You're also assuming the narrator would have needed to say something overly convoluted like "he surpassed Super Saiyan God after he absorbed it as a Super Saiyan" when something as simple as "Goku discovered his strongest Super Saiyan form yet" would have sufficed for what the narrator was trying to convey if we assume that Blue > 3 > 2 > God. It's incredibly misleading to tout Super Saiyan Blue as a form that surpasses "even" Super Saiyan God if Goku could have just left it behind by transforming into Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

And it's easy to compare Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since they're both God forms.

It's easy to compare any Super Saiyan form. Super Saiyan God was said to be even stronger than Super Saiyan 3 during BoG, desite only one of those forms using God ki. There's always some difference in power between different Super Saiyan forms regardless of the type of ki used.

You're right about the narrator's words, he's specifically referring to the form SSGod, not the level of power Goku had back then. This confirms that SSBlue is the only form that's superior to SSGod.

[HeroR]

It is an accomplishment since Goku surpassed the level he was at when he fought Beerus, even after he pushed Super Saiyan God to its max and absorbed its power.

The narrator wasn't attributing Goku's fight against Beerus to his comparison though, he was explicitly and directly referring to the actual form Super Saiyan God. Under your interpretation, it's not at all an accomplishment that Super Saiyan Blue would surpass Super Saiyan God if all these other forms already surpassed the latter prior to the discovery of Super Saiyan Blue. By that reasoning, SSG is absolutely nothing special and doesn't need to be touted as a benchmark for anything.

You're also assuming the narrator would have needed to say something overly convoluted like "he surpassed Super Saiyan God after he absorbed it as a Super Saiyan" when something as simple as "Goku discovered his strongest Super Saiyan form yet" would have sufficed for what the narrator was trying to convey if we assume that Blue > 3 > 2 > God. It's incredibly misleading to tout Super Saiyan Blue as a form that surpasses "even" Super Saiyan God if Goku could have just left it behind by transforming into Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

And it's easy to compare Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since they're both God forms.

It's easy to compare any Super Saiyan form. Super Saiyan God was said to be even stronger than Super Saiyan 3 during BoG, desite only one of those forms using God ki. There's always some difference in power between different Super Saiyan forms regardless of the type of ki used.

How do you know the narrator wasn't making a comparison to Goku and Beerus' fight, especially when we saw Super Saiyan God in action and Goku absorbing it. And at that time, we saw no other gold Super Saiyan forms except Super Saiyan 1, so why would the narrator make the comparison to Super Saiyan 2 or 3 when it was talking about Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? Did you want the narrator to say 'Goku's new form surpassed all Super Saiyan forms'? Does it need to be that explicited. Super Saiyan God was the benchmark at the time because it was originally thought to be the strongest Super Saiyan form.

It's not misleading. Until the Future Trunks Saga, no other gold Super Saiyan form was used except the original Super Saiyan.

The comparison was made because they're both God forms and the characters themselves confused Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan for Super Saiyan God because Goku's ki disappeared. King Kai was also shocked that Goku reached godhood without the ritual.

[HeroR]

It is an accomplishment since Goku surpassed the level he was at when he fought Beerus, even after he pushed Super Saiyan God to its max and absorbed its power.

The narrator wasn't attributing Goku's fight against Beerus to his comparison though, he was explicitly and directly referring to the actual form Super Saiyan God. Under your interpretation, it's not at all an accomplishment that Super Saiyan Blue would surpass Super Saiyan God if all these other forms already surpassed the latter prior to the discovery of Super Saiyan Blue. By that reasoning, SSG is absolutely nothing special and doesn't need to be touted as a benchmark for anything.

You're also assuming the narrator would have needed to say something overly convoluted like "he surpassed Super Saiyan God after he absorbed it as a Super Saiyan" when something as simple as "Goku discovered his strongest Super Saiyan form yet" would have sufficed for what the narrator was trying to convey if we assume that Blue > 3 > 2 > God. It's incredibly misleading to tout Super Saiyan Blue as a form that surpasses "even" Super Saiyan God if Goku could have just left it behind by transforming into Super Saiyan 2 or 3.

And it's easy to compare Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan since they're both God forms.

It's easy to compare any Super Saiyan form. Super Saiyan God was said to be even stronger than Super Saiyan 3 during BoG, desite only one of those forms using God ki. There's always some difference in power between different Super Saiyan forms regardless of the type of ki used.

You're right about the narrator's words, he's specifically referring to the form SSGod, not the level of power Goku had back then. This confirms that SSBlue is the only form that's superior to SSGod.

It really doesn't. It only proves Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to Super Saiyan God. Goku or Vegeta haven't even used Super Saiyan 2 or 3 at that time, so why would a comparison be made to them.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It really doesn't. It only proves Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to Super Saiyan God. Goku or Vegeta haven't even used Super Saiyan 2 or 3 at that time, so why would a comparison be made to them.

Why would they point out that SSBlue is stronger than SSGod if the other SSJ forms are already stronger? It'd be like saying Goku unlocked a form surpassing even Super Saiyan 2.

[HeroR]

It really doesn't. It only proves Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to Super Saiyan God. Goku or Vegeta haven't even used Super Saiyan 2 or 3 at that time, so why would a comparison be made to them.

Why would they point out that SSBlue is stronger than SSGod if the other SSJ forms are already stronger? It'd be like saying Goku unlocked a form surpassing even Super Saiyan 2.

Because we're talking about forms, not power. Goku absorbed the power Super Saiyan God, but he lost the form and wasn't a god anymore.

Goku's Super Saiyan form only surpassed the form of Super Saiyan God because his base form became much stronger. Super Saiyan God is a multipler of a Saiyan's base form, not a set level. The stronger the base form, the stronger the Super Saiyan form. In this case, the multipler of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is higher than that of Super Saiyan God, which is why it's a higher form.

[Marlowe89]

How do you know the narrator wasn't making a comparison to Goku and Beerus' fight

Because the narrator never mentioned a specific point in time, he was just referring to the form itself. The whole point was that Super Saiyan Blue was even stronger than Super Saiyan God, which wouldn't have been mentioned if Goku was already entirely stronger than Super Saiyan God via forms that he already had access to prior to unlocking Blue.

It's really that simple. If you insist, you can go ahead and believe that your interpretation meshes with what the narrator said completely and that the statement doesn't sound odd, misleading, or trivial at all, but I doubt many people with a solid grasp on linguistic connotation and context would agree with that. There's really no point in discussing it further, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It really doesn't. It only proves Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is superior to Super Saiyan God. Goku or Vegeta haven't even used Super Saiyan 2 or 3 at that time, so why would a comparison be made to them.

Why would they point out that SSBlue is stronger than SSGod if the other SSJ forms are already stronger? It'd be like saying Goku unlocked a form surpassing even Super Saiyan 2.

Because we're talking about forms, not power. Goku absorbed the power Super Saiyan God, but he lost the form and wasn't a god anymore.

Goku's Super Saiyan form only surpassed the form of Super Saiyan God because his base form became much stronger. Super Saiyan God is a multipler of a Saiyan's base form, not a set level. The stronger the base form, the stronger the Super Saiyan form. In this case, the multipler of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is higher than that of Super Saiyan God, which is why it's a higher form.

But Goku was said to have absorbed the power of SSG into himself, this can only mean that either his base is as strong as SSG or his SSJ3 is as strong as SSG, his SSJ being ~ SSG doesn't fit as his SSJ2 and SSJ3 would be a good deal stronger. It's more likely that he absorbed its power into his base and his SSJ gave him a trivial boost on top of that since SSBlue is the correct way to use SSJ with SSG.

Kind of like this:
SSGod: 10
Base Goku: ~9
SSJ Goku: ~10-11

[HeroR]

How do you know the narrator wasn't making a comparison to Goku and Beerus' fight

Because the narrator never mentioned a specific point in time, he was just referring to the form itself. The whole point was that Super Saiyan Blue was even stronger than Super Saiyan God, which wouldn't have been mentioned if Goku was already entirely stronger than Super Saiyan God via forms that he already had access to prior to unlocking Blue.

It's really that simple. If you insist, you can go ahead and believe that your interpretation meshes with what the narrator said completely and that the statement doesn't sound odd, misleading, or trivial at all, but I doubt many people with a solid grasp on linguistic connotation and context would agree with that. There's really no point in discussing it further, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

The form itself is stronger than Super Saiyan God, which is the point. Goku is only stronger than he was as a Super Saiyan God because his base form increased massively in power thanks to him taking in the power of Super Saiyan God despite losing godhood. Super Saiyan God like all Super Saiyan forms is a multipler of a Saiyan's base form, not a set power level, which is something fans grapple with.

So, if base form Goku is as strong as Super Saiyan God, than naturally his other forms would surpassed what he was as a Super Saiyan God. And, for example, Goku became a Super Saiyan God again, it would be stronger than it was before since Goku's base form is stronger.

[HeroR]

But Goku was said to have absorbed the power of SSG into himself, this can only mean that either his base is as strong as SSG or his SSJ3 is as strong as SSG, his SSJ being ~ SSG doesn't fit as his SSJ2 and SSJ3 would be a good deal stronger. It's more likely that he absorbed its power into his base and his SSJ gave him a trivial boost on top of that since SSBlue is the correct way to use SSJ with SSG.

Kind of like this:
SSGod: 10
Base Goku: ~9
SSJ Goku: ~10-11

His other Super Saiyan forms increased because his base form is stronger. It isn't because Super Saiyan 2 and 3 got stronger.

For example, before Goku took in Super Saiyan God:

Base form: 1
Super Saiyan: 50
Super Saiyan 2: 100
Super Saiyan 3: 400
Super Saiyan God: 1000

After taking in Super Saiyan God:

Base form: 1000
Super Saiyan: 50,000
Super Saiyan 2: 100,000
Super Saiyan 3: 400,000

See. The multiplers are the same, yet since Goku's base form increased in power, it automatically raised all his other Super forms. Even then, the multipler on Super Saiyan God is much higher, so Super Saiyan God power-wise is superior.

Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just Super Saiyan with God ki. Goku took in the power of Super Saiyan God, but he was no longer a God.

[Bullza]

In the newest chapter when Black is talking about how powerful Vegeta us and what timeline he's from Vegeta says that Black must be from a timeline much further in the future than that Goku.

That'd explain why Black is stronger than Goku but it also means that Vegeta would be stronger than both and we know he and Goku are equal as Super Saiyan Blue's so it would sorta mean that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 would have to be pretty unique compared to everyone elses.

[TheUltimateNinja]

In the newest chapter when Black is talking about how powerful Vegeta us and what timeline he's from Vegeta says that Black must be from a timeline much further in the future than that Goku.

That'd explain why Black is stronger than Goku but it also means that Vegeta would be stronger than both and we know he and Goku are equal as Super Saiyan Blue's so it would sorta mean that Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2 would have to be pretty unique compared to everyone elses.

I don't like this fact.

[brett wheeler]

why did tht have to be permanent in fact they imply the opposite threw out the fight with goku and beerus acting as if his power was fluctuating and not stable. I will agree that it gave him a boost but I don't think to that lvl everything points to goku and vegeta base-ssj3 being strong but not on ssg lvl in fact ssg lvl fighters would one shot gotenks without even trying not beat the living hell out of him. ssj-ssj2 vegito is more than generous enough for there feats to be possible but still be weak enough to consider a majin buu to ult gohan lvl fighter to be strong. also this covers piccolo in terms of power as well seeing as he was training and had the upper hand against a gohan who looked to be ultimate again and even implies he is above it even by a little so piccolo would be getting close to there base at least so him being able to stall frost is actually a possibility now. also makes trunks power scaling more sensical ( other than the ssj2 trunks vs ssb lvl fighters bs nothing fixes that) as he trained with the z-sword and then got his ass handed to him by black plus probably trained before black of course he would reach a high lvl with all this as black is leagues above him the zenkies he would receive would probably be pretty noticeable ( super has been focusing on zenkies more then the last half of z did ) so him being on par with goku or vegeta isnt out of the question.

It was never stated or implied that Goku lost any of the power gained from Super Saiyan God, or even that his power fluctuated or was unstable. It's the opposite. Krillin called Goku stronger than ever in Episode 16 and Whis tells Vegeta that he would never catch Goku at the rate he was going in the same episode despite getting stronger. It also took Vegeta six months of training with Whis to be even with Goku. Goku was also able to take hits from Beerus in his base form several times while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got two-shotted by Beerus with no effort. The same with Ultimate Gohan.

It's impossible to do a power comparison with Vegetto since he never went all out and we don't even know what Super Saiyan 2 Vegetto can do or how he compared to Beerus other than Goku saying that fusing won't work and Super Saiyan God was a level that Goku didn't know existed.

Vegeta did practically knocked Gotenks out in one hit and also caused him to defuses like Beerus did in the BOG Saga.

Goku didn't note a major power increase in Piccolo and it's a fan assumption that he was sparring with Ultimate Gohan. Even then, we don't know how much Gohan was holding back. Piccolo can't even sense God ki so he's nowhere near Goku or Vegeta's base forms.

for one it is implied the power was fluctuating in goku as he started doing worse against beerus then goku got angry and charged him in witch beerus says " ah the power of ssg " then when they get to space he reverts to base to be flicked by beerus in witch goku had to really concentrate to reactivate the ssg power again basically the story points that goku has the power of ssg but not in complete control at that point and was hard to maintain. When it comes to vegeta the problem is he only trained for months not years even with whis training its hard to accept he got to ssg lvl in just months and is highly inconceivable, also just so its clear someone can absorb the power of something into themselves without using it all the time ( i'll use naruto as the best example ) naruto absorbed sage of the six path mode but onyl was able to use its power when he tapped into it and is no where near its strength normally, same could be said for goku/vegeta the god ki is kept separate normally goku and vegeta are really strong ( I say vegito lvl but whatever you want to put them at is fine as long as you have bese -ssj3 below ssg ) and they can tap into that god power to amp themselves but its not controllable, ergo why they needed ki controle training ssg and ssb are the outcomes of saiyan beyond god and that ssj form you saw once under full control at least that's the only way it made sense as no statement would contradict this and anybody saying goku absorbed and surpassed ssg would still be right as he did, he just didn't use its power 24/7 instead his normal ki ( witch would be boosted by the events too ) is what he used and what vegeta referred to matching and surpassing after whis trained him and to be fair I do think ssj3 is close to the realm of the gods now and ssg isnt to much stronger than ssj3 after the events of bog maby ssg is 4-5* ssj3 at this piont and ssb being ( as most fans assume ) 10 * that.

When goku fought beerus they kept stressing the fact that beerus couldn't go no where near all out as the costume restrained him due to the fact he couldnt see and initially didn't want to destroy the costume ( witch he ended up doing any way regardless of the fact he was restraining himself ) so that feat is not usable. Also it is to be noted that when beerus went to go all out whis stopped him my best guess is to not reveal the monaka weak thing.

Yes vegeta did do all that but still not to the same degree a ssg fighter would he was stronger than them but not to the point of being on a god tier lvl while hey where at best where they where in the buu saga I just dont see that fight ( my bad beating ) giong like it did if he was ssg lvl.

its just a fan assumption of gohan because of his confidence, and he probably wasnt holding back as he was pretty badly banged up. Thirdly piccolo cant sense god ki but neither can kabba trunks or others who we know are at there base lvl I assumed they could because they have forms with enough power to and now they know how to no matter the form there in.