Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[perucho1990]

This might be a dumb question but How Hit would perform vs Trunks?

1. Vs Fake SSJB Trunks?

2. Vs Genkidama Trunks with the sword of light(Named by Toei btw)

Can he beat both version of Trunks?

[TheUltimateNinja]

This might be a dumb question but How Hit would perform vs Trunks?

1. Vs Fake SSJB Trunks?

2. Vs Genkidama Trunks with the sword of light(Named by Toei btw)

Can he beat both version of Trunks?

He would destroy both easily. Super Trunks is below current SSBlue Goku and Vegeta and Spirit Trunks is weaker than Kaioken Goku.

[Abra kadabra]

This might be a dumb question but How Hit would perform vs Trunks?

1. Vs Fake SSJB Trunks?

2. Vs Genkidama Trunks with the sword of light(Named by Toei btw)

Can he beat both version of Trunks?

Anime Hit can stop time indefinitely, stop a heart with a single punch, body phase, negate damage, insta-improve and probably some other shit so I'd say anime Hit can beat both versions as long as he can time hax

Manga hit would get stomped by both versions

[Bullza]

I don't like this fact.

Me either but that's how it looks from what I can see. Vegeta's saying that Black is from even further in the future than the current Goku, so he should be stronger than the current Goku and yet Vegeta is somehow stronger than that but they're still equal at their best.

SSJB Vegeta = SSJB Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Black > Black > SS2 Trunks > SSJ2 Goku

Unless Vegeta has a uniquely powerful SSJ2 then how else does it make sense? He's beating Black whilst saying Trunks wouldn't be a match for him whilst he was shown to be equal to SSJ3 Goku.

It's weird writing really and I doubt most readers would even think "Ah it's because Vegeta's SSJ2 is special from that one time ages ago when he fought Beerus for a few pages".

It might explain why Black could receive that SSJB beatdown as well.

[perucho1990]

He would destroy both easily. Super Trunks is below current SSBlue Goku and Vegeta and Spirit Trunks is weaker than Kaioken Goku.

Genkidama Trunks was stronger than Vegetto(he 2 shotted Merged Zamasu), could his sword bypass Hits intangibility?

[TheUltimateNinja]

I don't like this fact.

Me either but that's how it looks from what I can see. Vegeta's saying that Black is from even further in the future than the current Goku, so he should be stronger than the current Goku and yet Vegeta is somehow stronger than that but they're still equal at their best.

SSJB Vegeta = SSJB Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Black > Black > SS2 Trunks > SSJ2 Goku

Unless Vegeta has a uniquely powerful SSJ2 then how else does it make sense? He's beating Black whilst saying Trunks wouldn't be a match for him whilst he was shown to be equal to SSJ3 Goku.

It's weird writing really and I doubt most readers would even think "Ah it's because Vegeta's SSJ2 is special from that one time ages ago when he fought Beerus for a few pages".

It might explain why Black could receive that SSJB beatdown as well.

The fans who pay close enough to attention to connect this to Vegeta going nuts against Beerus would also realize that this totally contradicts the entire U6 Arc.

Also, it's pretty retarded that Trunks and Vegeta alone are able to achieve super powerful SSJ2 states, whereas Goku is unable to do so despite having 3 more years of training than Trunks, which he spent with Vegeta in the time chamber. Surely Vegeta must have used this form several times in there which would allow Goku to learn it as well. Goku immediately saw the flaw of the Grade forms and decided to master SSJ, so it's really weird he doesn't do the same thing for SSJ2 instead of relying on SSJ3.

The only explanation is that this special SSJ2 is somehow genetic, but this isn't implied at all anywhere and kind of goes against the message that you can achieve anything through hard work.

[perucho1990]

Anime Hit can stop time indefinitely, stop a heart with a single punch, body phase, negate damage, insta-improve and probably some other shit so I'd say anime Hit can beat both versions as long as he can time hax

Manga hit would get stomped by both versions

When was that implied when Hit acknowledged his timestop wouldnt work on Goku. Just like timestop, his heart punch should also have a limit, and Genkidama Trunks stats are easily above SSJB Vegetto based on feats.

Thing is if the sword of light can bypass intangibility.

[Abra kadabra]

I don't like this fact.

Me either but that's how it looks from what I can see. Vegeta's saying that Black is from even further in the future than the current Goku, so he should be stronger than the current Goku and yet Vegeta is somehow stronger than that but they're still equal at their best.

SSJB Vegeta = SSJB Goku > SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ2 Black > Black > SS2 Trunks > SSJ2 Goku

Unless Vegeta has a uniquely powerful SSJ2 then how else does it make sense? He's beating Black whilst saying Trunks wouldn't be a match for him whilst he was shown to be equal to SSJ3 Goku.

It's weird writing really and I doubt most readers would even think "Ah it's because Vegeta's SSJ2 is special from that one time ages ago when he fought Beerus for a few pages".

It might explain why Black could receive that SSJB beatdown as well.

The fans who pay close enough to attention to connect this to Vegeta going nuts against Beerus would also realize that this totally contradicts the entire U6 Arc.

Also, it's pretty retarded that Trunks and Vegeta alone are able to achieve super powerful SSJ2 states, whereas Goku is unable to do so despite having 3 more years of training than Trunks, which he spent with Vegeta in the time chamber. Surely Vegeta must have used this form several times in there which would allow Goku to learn it as well. Goku immediately saw the flaw of the Grade forms and decided to master SSJ, so it's really weird he doesn't do the same thing for SSJ2 instead of relying on SSJ3.

The only explanation is that this special SSJ2 is somehow genetic, but this isn't implied at all anywhere and kind of goes against the message that you can achieve anything through hard work.

Vegeta's feats in the latest chapter are contradictory and nonsensical. Trunk's is a hybrid so him improving ssj2 further than Goku's makes sense because his full power is higher due to more potential and a saiyan's ability to improve whilst fighting. He was fighting black for a year.

Gohan was throwing hands with freeza at 5 years of age. Genetics have always been prevalent.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Vegeta's feats in the latest chapter are contradictory and nonsensical. Trunk's is a hybrid so him improving ssj2 further than Goku's makes sense because his full power is higher due to more potential and a saiyan's ability to improve whilst fighting. He was fighting black for a year.

Gohan was throwing hands with freeza at 5 years of age. Genetics have always been prevalent.

Being powerful and having a totally unique form are different things, though. Through training Goku eventually matches Gohan's power, but there's nothing he can do to obtain Vegeta's special SSJ2.

[hiperion]

I posted this earlier but it seems noone seen it.I really need more opinnion on this,thanks.
Is this the current state of power scaling?I included saiyans only and went with the assumptions that Merged Zamasu was tired from the fight with Vegito and that's why he was beaten by Trunks
1.Blue Vegito
2.Rose Goku(Black)
3.Super Trunks-False SSB or whatever it's called
4.Blue Vegeta-After 6 months in Time Chamber
5.Blue Goku-Currently weaker then Vegeta
6.Super Saiyan God Goku-Whis form is weaker than the Blue form
7.SSJ Vegito-No explanation needed(?)
8.SSJ Gogeta-No explanation needed(?)
9.Rage SSJ2 Vegeta-During the fighr with Beerus
10.Ultimate Gohan-In his prime he was stronger than both Gotenks and Goku
11.SSJ3 Gotenks-I think it was said to be stronger than Goku
12.SSJ3 Goku
13.Majin SSJ2 Vegeta
14.SSJ2 Goku
15.SSJ2 Vegeta
16.Goku Black-I'm torn here,whether i should put him higher
17.SSJ Gotenks
18.LSSJ Broly-He's not that strong anymore
19.SSJ2 Gohan
20.SSJ Goku
21.SSJ Vegeta
22.SSJ Cabbe
The list probably needs more adjustments but it's close enough(?).Anyway tell me what do you guys think.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I posted this earlier but it seems noone seen it.I really need more opinnion on this,thanks.
Is this the current state of power scaling?I included saiyans only and went with the assumptions that Merged Zamasu was tired from the fight with Vegito and that's why he was beaten by Trunks
1.Blue Vegito
2.Rose Goku(Black)
3.Super Trunks-False SSB or whatever it's called
4.Blue Vegeta-After 6 months in Time Chamber
5.Blue Goku-Currently weaker then Vegeta
6.Super Saiyan God Goku-Whis form is weaker than the Blue form
7.SSJ Vegito-No explanation needed(?)
8.SSJ Gogeta-No explanation needed(?)
9.Rage SSJ2 Vegeta-During the fighr with Beerus
10.Ultimate Gohan-In his prime he was stronger than both Gotenks and Goku
11.SSJ3 Gotenks-I think it was said to be stronger than Goku
12.SSJ3 Goku
13.Majin SSJ2 Vegeta
14.SSJ2 Goku
15.SSJ2 Vegeta
16.Goku Black-I'm torn here,whether i should put him higher
17.SSJ Gotenks
18.LSSJ Broly-He's not that strong anymore
19.SSJ2 Gohan
20.SSJ Goku
21.SSJ Vegeta
22.SSJ Cabbe
The list probably needs more adjustments but it's close enough(?).Anyway tell me what do you guys think.

Trunks is too high, Current Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him. Also, Goku is no longer weaker than Vegeta. If anything he may even be stronger.

[hiperion]

Trunks is too high, Current Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him. Also, Goku is no longer weaker than Vegeta. If anything he may even be stronger.

How can Goku be stronger?Vegeta was clearly stronger after that 6 month training.

[Abra kadabra]

I posted this earlier but it seems noone seen it.I really need more opinnion on this,thanks.
Is this the current state of power scaling?I included saiyans only and went with the assumptions that Merged Zamasu was tired from the fight with Vegito and that's why he was beaten by Trunks
1.Blue Vegito
2.Rose Goku(Black)
3.Super Trunks-False SSB or whatever it's called
4.Blue Vegeta-After 6 months in Time Chamber
5.Blue Goku-Currently weaker then Vegeta
6.Super Saiyan God Goku-Whis form is weaker than the Blue form
7.SSJ Vegito-No explanation needed(?)
8.SSJ Gogeta-No explanation needed(?)
9.Rage SSJ2 Vegeta-During the fighr with Beerus
10.Ultimate Gohan-In his prime he was stronger than both Gotenks and Goku
11.SSJ3 Gotenks-I think it was said to be stronger than Goku
12.SSJ3 Goku
13.Majin SSJ2 Vegeta
14.SSJ2 Goku
15.SSJ2 Vegeta
16.Goku Black-I'm torn here,whether i should put him higher
17.SSJ Gotenks
18.LSSJ Broly-He's not that strong anymore
19.SSJ2 Gohan
20.SSJ Goku
21.SSJ Vegeta
22.SSJ Cabbe
The list probably needs more adjustments but it's close enough(?).Anyway tell me what do you guys think.

Trunks is too high, Current Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him. Also, Goku is no longer weaker than Vegeta. If anything he may even be stronger.

You think Goku is stronger because of the full power kamehameha? Super Trunks and vegeta had better feats than goku in this arc and all goku did in the past was learn the mafuba

[TheUltimateNinja]

You think Goku is stronger because of the full power kamehameha? Super Trunks and vegeta had better feats than goku in this arc and all goku did in the past was learn the mafuba

Trunks is too high, Current Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him. Also, Goku is no longer weaker than Vegeta. If anything he may even be stronger.

How can Goku be stronger?Vegeta was clearly stronger after that 6 month training.

Goku was the only one who was able to do shit to Merged Zamasu. Trunks and Vegeta combining their power were still unable to match Goku's arms breaking Kamehameha. Plus Goku wrecked Merged Zamasu after that and he only used Kaioken for his final attack which broke Zamasu's halo.

[Bullza]

If Hit said the timeskip wouldn't work on Goku it doesn't mean that current SSJB Goku is above the level of his Kaioken x10 self at the Tournament does it?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Tell me what you guys think of this graphic. I think it could explain some things.

Ritual Super Saiyan = the Super Saiyan that Goku used against Beerus in outer space.
Ki-Condensed Base = Saiyan Beyond God, but obviously without the God Ki. Goku and Vegeta learned to not let their ki leak out with Whis.
Super Saiyan 2 Mutation = Vegeta's strong SS2 form that is stronger than Black in the manga.

[HeroR]

for one it is implied the power was fluctuating in goku as he started doing worse against beerus then goku got angry and charged him in witch beerus says " ah the power of ssg " then when they get to space he reverts to base to be flicked by beerus in witch goku had to really concentrate to reactivate the ssg power again basically the story points that goku has the power of ssg but not in complete control at that point and was hard to maintain. When it comes to vegeta the problem is he only trained for months not years even with whis training its hard to accept he got to ssg lvl in just months and is highly inconceivable, also just so its clear someone can absorb the power of something into themselves without using it all the time ( i'll use naruto as the best example ) naruto absorbed sage of the six path mode but onyl was able to use its power when he tapped into it and is no where near its strength normally, same could be said for goku/vegeta the god ki is kept separate normally goku and vegeta are really strong ( I say vegito lvl but whatever you want to put them at is fine as long as you have bese -ssj3 below ssg ) and they can tap into that god power to amp themselves but its not controllable, ergo why they needed ki controle training ssg and ssb are the outcomes of saiyan beyond god and that ssj form you saw once under full control at least that's the only way it made sense as no statement would contradict this and anybody saying goku absorbed and surpassed ssg would still be right as he did, he just didn't use its power 24/7 instead his normal ki ( witch would be boosted by the events too ) is what he used and what vegeta referred to matching and surpassing after whis trained him and to be fair I do think ssj3 is close to the realm of the gods now and ssg isnt to much stronger than ssj3 after the events of bog maby ssg is 4-5* ssj3 at this piont and ssb being ( as most fans assume ) 10 * that.

When goku fought beerus they kept stressing the fact that beerus couldn't go no where near all out as the costume restrained him due to the fact he couldnt see and initially didn't want to destroy the costume ( witch he ended up doing any way regardless of the fact he was restraining himself ) so that feat is not usable. Also it is to be noted that when beerus went to go all out whis stopped him my best guess is to not reveal the monaka weak thing.

Yes vegeta did do all that but still not to the same degree a ssg fighter would he was stronger than them but not to the point of being on a god tier lvl while hey where at best where they where in the buu saga I just dont see that fight ( my bad beating ) giong like it did if he was ssg lvl.

its just a fan assumption of gohan because of his confidence, and he probably wasnt holding back as he was pretty badly banged up. Thirdly piccolo cant sense god ki but neither can kabba trunks or others who we know are at there base lvl I assumed they could because they have forms with enough power to and now they know how to no matter the form there in.

He began to revert back because Goku was tired, hurt, and running out of energy, the same reason why Golden Freeza lost his ultimate form after taking so much damaged from Vegeta. It wasn't because he was losing the power of Super Saiyan God. By the end, Goku was running on his own determination and eventually he body gave.

Freeza went from 120 million to being stronger than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku in just four months, by himself. So why can't Vegeta do almost the same thing in six months with the teacher of the God of Destruction? People jumping in power has nothing to do with the amount of time they train. Dragon Ball isn't Naruto, so it really doesn't matter what Naruto does. Beerus claimed that Goku can't go on much longer and he has limits. To which Goku told him to shut up and shattered his planet buster. He then said that even a god like Beerus has no rights to put limits on mortals. Whis and Beerus even said as they were leaving Earth that Goku surpassed his limits, nothing about him losing the power of Super Saiyan God.

Beerus without even trying and with very little movement, finger flipped and tapped Super Saiyan 3 Goku's shoulder, which critically injured Goku. He also took out Ultimate Gohan with one-hit and did almost the same to Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta after he raged. The fact that Beerus had to put any amount of effort into fighting base form Goku even while in costume says a lot, especially since Goku was still warming up and was ready to get serious when Whis stopped the fight.

When has Gohan been known to hold back after he sees his friends get destroyed? He isn't like his father. Trunks' base form isn't anywhere near Goku or Vegeta's base forms, that is only a fan assumption. Cabba was knocked out before he could say anything about sensing god ki or not, so you can't say he didn't sense it because he literally didn't say anything.

[Hugo Boss]

No Goku was only stated to have the advantage of power AFTER he went SSG/SSB. It was never stated as such in his base or SSJ forms, further stamina was not a factor in those lower forms. They specifics state the means Goku uses to overcome the time skip while weaker than Hit was Goku figuring out the time skip and anticipating his movements and skill.

While Goku is still just SS1, Beerus complains to Whis that Goku is more powerful than Hit and that he's only losing because of cheap tricks. And fighting is fighting, none of these forms have infinite stamina; it's clearly stated that Goku's stamina was starting to wear down, while Hit's wasn't taking a hit due to the Time Skip not using much energy.

Not greater, approximately equal. Hit had to be around 10~% SSB in order to utilize the Time Skip on Vegeta, and Goku was stated to have the advantage of power over Hit, just not the stamina. Combine those two things and you have an indication that the power of SSJ1 Goku was in the vicinity of 10~% SSB.

We don't know how great the difference has to be. All we know is that SSG Goku became too strong for Hit, and >10% SSB Vegeta wasn't. For all we know, >10% SSB Vegeta could be 100 times stronger than Hit, and SSG Goku 1.000 times stronger.

I think we can employ a little common sense and say 100 times stronger is not near his level. The gulf between SSJ1 and SSJ2 no one would call near and it was "only" 2x as strong as SSJ1; differences of far less than twice as strong have resulted in lopsided fights before. I've also seen two other translations that translated it as "equal" rather than "near" which suggests to me the original language means a insignificant difference. It would be nice to have a breakdown of what that line means.

I would like to see that too. In the same square it seems Whis says Goku not only close the gap between Hit's power and his, but he also surpassed it, which implies there was a gap Goku needed to overcome in the first place. He needed to do that and surpass Hit.

If Hit said the timeskip wouldn't work on Goku it doesn't mean that current SSJB Goku is above the level of his Kaioken x10 self at the Tournament does it?

Well, it worked in the tournament. If it isn't working now it means Goku is at least better than he was in the tournament, not necessarily power wise.

[HeroR]

If Hit said the timeskip wouldn't work on Goku it doesn't mean that current SSJB Goku is above the level of his Kaioken x10 self at the Tournament does it?

We have known since the Cell Games that once Goku figured out a technique, it almost never works on him anymore. Goku had at least a year to adapt and fully understand Hit's time-skip to find a counter that doesn't requires him to use super speed.

[RandomGuy96]

If Hit said the timeskip wouldn't work on Goku it doesn't mean that current SSJB Goku is above the level of his Kaioken x10 self at the Tournament does it?

If that's the case that might be further proof of the enormous gains implied when SSB Vegeta went from being unable to even remotely phase base Zamasu-Goku to wiping the floor with SSR Zamasu-Goku.