"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Because in the trimeline Trunks didn't show up Zamasu took over Goku's body therefore implying that they most likely still fought regardless of Trunks. Considering Zamasu was a one of a kind fighting prodigy it isn't exactly far fetched to thing they'd find eventually.

That's the thing, there is no timeline where Trunks never came that created Black. Trunks coming to the past and Black following him are all part of the stable time loop that leads to Black's creation. There is no Black without Trunks traveling to the past to get help to fight Black.

And their meeting would have to happened within the year the Super Dragon Balls were inactive and Zamasu never implied he seek Goku out after watching Godtube and top of the flashback clearly showing the sparring match from Episode 53.

I don't see how them re using animation from #53 proves anything. I'm not talking about GodTube all I'm saying is they fought for an unspecified reason but given the fact that he was a prodigy Kioshin it's not exactly far fetched to think they'd eventually bout.
In #62 we we're clearly shown a timelime where Trunks didn't come back and Black was born.

Reusing animation would be plausible if they didn't actually show differences in the animation of the flashback. The literally redrew the scenes to show the happened almost the same exact way which makes even less sense because whoever ordered those scenes must have been thoroughly convinced the time loop made perfect sense.

[MisteryOne]

How does the anime make more sense that the manga? In the manga even if Zamasu doesn't fight Goku and Trunks doesn't come back he still learns about Goku because of Kaioshin and because Godtube. And in the manga, Goku won, not Hit. Hit was a lot weaker in the manga, Goku could have destroyed him. In the anime, however, in an hypothetical timelime where Zamasu never met Goku, why would he choose him over Hit? In the anime it was the other way around, even with Kaioken, which was not unlimited, Goku and Hit were pretty much equals andit couldn't fight seriously.

The anime makes more sense if we consider the time paradox. Without it, it doesn't make sense that Zamasu didn't became Hit Black.If Zamasu didn't fight against Goku in the anime, he would never became interested about him. Why would he? In the anime he actually mets Goku because of their fight. The manga has ways for Zamasu to became Black without the fight, the anime doesn't.In the anime, even without fighting seriously, Hit was able to fight Goku. In the manga, without his killing tecniques, Hit was useless, specially since his Full Power only last one minute, and without it he's weaker than SS Goku acording to Beerus.

Everything on the anime depends of the time loop, which doesn't really make sense if Beerus was the one who separated the timelines. If you ignore it, Zamasu becoming Black is a nonsense.

Of course the anime only makes sense if you used the stable time loop/time paradox, because that's exactly what happened. Black's very existence happened because of a time loop. There is no timeline where Zamasu never met Goku.

Also, Goku forfeited just like he did in the anime, so he didn't win against Hit. And just like anime, manga Hit couldn't used his killing techniques. Zamasu becoming trigged and deciding to steal some random mortal's body because he saw Godtube clips is really eye rolling when you really think about it.

That's what I'm saying, that an hypothetical timeline where Zamasu didn't met Goku doesn't make sense.

A random mortal? Have you ever read the manga? Kaioshin told Zamasu about Son Goku, a mortal that did what a Hakaishin was suposed to do, dealing with Majin Boo. At first he doesn't even believe a mortal can surpase a god. Then, he watch Godtube. Do you really think it would make sense to Zamasu to choose Hit over Goku when:
-in another chapter ,as Gowasu told him, Zamasu's power was useless and it didn't matter that he was a prodigy above all the Kaioshins and that he had work hard to obtain it, because he should not use that power on mortals? Goku was a mortal who was doing what Zamasu as not able to do despite not being allowed to. Then in Godtube Zamasu sees that mortal ,not only with God Ki, but with a power closer the one of the Hakaishins as both him and Gowasu note
-Goku completely outclassed Hit. His timeskip was useless. Do you really think that Zamasu, who had become interested in Goku because he was doing what Gods were supposed to do and surpassed their, to the point of search his name in Godtube to learn more about him, would choose Hit, who is actually the random mortal, who without his full power (which only last a minute) was unable to do anything against Super Saiyan God Goku, and that was completely outmatched by his Super Saiyan Blue form? Specially considering that as far as Zamasu knows, Hit not only doesn't surpass the power of the gods (without his full power he's weaker than SS Goku) but also doesn't make what the Gods are supposed to do? Not so speak that Hit didn't have any God Ki, and choosing him over Goku would mean have the risk tjat even with his assasnation tecniques Hit would still be inferior to SSBlue Goku, who didn't show his full power as well in the tournament? Are you really telling me tjat it didn't make sense to choose Goku instead of Hit in the manga? Like seriously? And the fact that you thing that he only chosed Goku because of Godtube clearly shows that either you have not read the manga or you have forgotten everything prior and after to that, including the Barbari and earthworms stuff. The reasons to choose Goku over Hit are as valid as in the anime. In fact, the anime completely depends on his fight with Goku, while the manga doesn't.Manga Hit is weak as fuck and could be killed by a surprise attack of a powerful enemy if he is not in full power.Zamasu doesn't become Black because of seeing Godtube. That's like saying that in the anime he became Black just because of fighting Goku.

Also, since Black doesn't have the Time Ring, is more than possible that Goku Black is not an alternate present Zamasu.

The time loop in the anime is completely nonsensical if Beerus really was the one who separated timelines, so the manga actually made the timelines stuff better. The only reason to consider the anime version superior is because Zamasu fighting Goku helped on his development, bit the time loop wasn't necessary at all. In fact, the time loop doesn't explain how Black knows Vegeta since as far as we know Present Zamasu just saw a clip of Hit fighting Goku. He didn't even see the Kaioken.

[Will]

That's the thing, there is no timeline where Trunks never came that created Black. Trunks coming to the past and Black following him are all part of the stable time loop that leads to Black's creation. There is no Black without Trunks traveling to the past to get help to fight Black.

And their meeting would have to happened within the year the Super Dragon Balls were inactive and Zamasu never implied he seek Goku out after watching Godtube and top of the flashback clearly showing the sparring match from Episode 53.

I don't see how them re using animation from #53 proves anything. I'm not talking about GodTube all I'm saying is they fought for an unspecified reason but given the fact that he was a prodigy Kioshin it's not exactly far fetched to think they'd eventually bout.
In #62 we we're clearly shown a timelime where Trunks didn't come back and Black was born.

Reusing animation would be plausible if they didn't actually show differences in the animation of the flashback. The literally redrew the scenes to show the happened almost the same exact way which makes even less sense because whoever ordered those scenes must have been thoroughly convinced the time loop made perfect sense.

We know for a fact that events happens differently in Black timeline, Gowasu death is completly different:
http://imgur.com/a/e6IJY from Terez27
In Black timeline, there's no tea on the table, Gowasu is stabbed in the back and not in the neck.
And Gowasu didn't die on the table but on the ground.

[TheMikado]

^ Thats the point I'm making. The events played out only slightly differently. No where in the anime nor Toeis outline does it show a significant deviation from the main point which Toeis own outline says. If there was a significant deviation in the plot that created Black, Toei should have made it known and not looped it back on itself.

[MisteryOne]

^ Thats the point I'm making. The events played out only slightly differently. No where in the anime nor Toeis outline does it show a significant deviation from the main point which Toeis own outline says. If there was a significant deviation in the plot that created Black, Toei should have made it known and not looped it back on itself.

That's exactly the problem. If Beerus killing Zamasu creates a new timeline, then until that moment Black's timeline and the present one were the same. However, apart from that little details that you guys are speaking about, the time loop doesn't explain why Beerus didn't kill Black in his timeline (I mean, if everything else was exactly the same, how is possible that Beerus decides or not to do something?) or why Black knew Vegeta, since Present Zamasu only saw Goku fighting with Hit in Godtube, no Vegeta.

[TheMikado]

^ Thats the point I'm making. The events played out only slightly differently. No where in the anime nor Toeis outline does it show a significant deviation from the main point which Toeis own outline says. If there was a significant deviation in the plot that created Black, Toei should have made it known and not looped it back on itself.

That's exactly the problem. If Beerus killing Zamasu creates a new timeline, then until that moment Black's timeline and the present one were the same. However, apart from that little details that you guys are speaking about, the time loop doesn't explain why Beerus didn't kill Black in his timeline (I mean, if everything else was exactly the same, how is possible that Beerus decides or not to do something?) or why Black knew Vegeta, since Present Zamasu only saw Goku fighting with Hit in Godtube, no Vegeta.

Exactly this is why the anime timeline makes no sense at all.

[Noah]

Exactly this is why the anime timeline makes no sense at all.

And that Toei chart explain things or just confuse even more?

[MisteryOne]

Exactly this is why the anime timeline makes no sense at all.

And that Toei chart explain things or just confuse even more?

IMHO it confuses people even more because acording to that chart Goku Black is just Present Zamasu if he wasn't killed by Beerus.The anime is a bit more ambiguos. And like other people have said, it doesn't make sense.

Anyway I have just realised this isn't the thread to discuss this, is it?

[Will]

^ Thats the point I'm making. The events played out only slightly differently. No where in the anime nor Toeis outline does it show a significant deviation from the main point which Toeis own outline says. If there was a significant deviation in the plot that created Black, Toei should have made it known and not looped it back on itself.

That's exactly the problem. If Beerus killing Zamasu creates a new timeline, then until that moment Black's timeline and the present one were the same. However, apart from that little details that you guys are speaking about, the time loop doesn't explain why Beerus didn't kill Black in his timeline (I mean, if everything else was exactly the same, how is possible that Beerus decides or not to do something?) or why Black knew Vegeta, since Present Zamasu only saw Goku fighting with Hit in Godtube, no Vegeta.

The chart show Future Trunks going to Goku's timeline, his future timeline, and the new future timeline.
The chart don't show Trunks going to Black timeline.

F.Trunks is clearly the elements that made the difference.
The chart even say this :
"It is split into several histories due to Future Trunks coming to Goku's history"
Goku's timeline was Black timeline but Trunks going back to the past change stuff ( which result in Zamasu dying because of Beerus) which split the timeline.

Gowasu death in Black timeline being completly different clearly show that the events diverge a little earlier.

Having Trunks in Black timeline make no sense.

[Noah]

Anyway I have just realised this isn't the thread to discuss this, is it?

Yeah, I forgot too: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=35503&p=1194339#p1194339

[HeroR]

I don't see how them re using animation from #53 proves anything. I'm not talking about GodTube all I'm saying is they fought for an unspecified reason but given the fact that he was a prodigy Kioshin it's not exactly far fetched to think they'd eventually bout.
In #62 we we're clearly shown a timelime where Trunks didn't come back and Black was born.

It wasn't just them reusing animation. It was showing that the exact confrontation between that version of Zamasu that became Black was exactly the same as Present Zamasu. Meaning, Goku fought Zamasu to see if he was Black. There was no hint that the confrontation happened for another reason.

[MisteryOne]

^ Thats the point I'm making. The events played out only slightly differently. No where in the anime nor Toeis outline does it show a significant deviation from the main point which Toeis own outline says. If there was a significant deviation in the plot that created Black, Toei should have made it known and not looped it back on itself.

That's exactly the problem. If Beerus killing Zamasu creates a new timeline, then until that moment Black's timeline and the present one were the same. However, apart from that little details that you guys are speaking about, the time loop doesn't explain why Beerus didn't kill Black in his timeline (I mean, if everything else was exactly the same, how is possible that Beerus decides or not to do something?) or why Black knew Vegeta, since Present Zamasu only saw Goku fighting with Hit in Godtube, no Vegeta.

The chart show Future Trunks going to Goku's timeline, his future timeline, and the new future timeline.
The chart don't show Trunks going to Black timeline.

F.Trunks is clearly the elements that made the difference.
The chart even say this :
"It is split into several histories due to Future Trunks coming to Goku's history"
Goku's timeline was Black timeline but Trunks going back to the past change stuff ( which result in Zamasu dying because of Beerus) which split the timeline.

Gowasu death in Black timeline being completly different clearly show that the events diverge a little earlier.

Having Trunks in Black timeline make no sense.

But acording to both the chart and Whis in episode 67, Beerus was the one who changed timelines, so Trunks must have been in Black's rimeline. Also, yeah, the chart actually says that Black's timeline is exactly the same except that Zamasu succes in killing Gowasu. I suppose the chart contradicts itself?

It doesn't make any sense, but that's what Toei is telling us.

[GodKaio-Ken]

What the actual F***? The only reason Trunks came back to the past was because Black existed there! How can you say that if Trunks didn't came back Black would never exist? This DOESN'T make any sense!

Hes not the one saying it. The show implied it. Its a time paradox. Though the manga tackled it differently. Everything from this point is anime only in theory.

If Trunks doesnt go back Goku never fights Zamasu because he has no reason to investigate him. Their fight was really the catalyst for Zamasu wanting to switch bodies.

Its possible he still sees Goku on GodTube but we dont know that for sure. We cant just assume he would have as events would have been different.

It's heavily implied that Goku and Zamasu were already on a collision anyway Trunks coming back just instigated it quicker. In the timeline Black killed Chichi and Goten, Trunks didn't come back but Zamasu and Goku still fought. We don't know what reason but it doesn't matter all we know is that they were gonna fight regardless.

It was never implied they were on a collision course IMO but thats just my perspective. It was left a bit open to interpretation so i think its okay we see it different.

[Will]

But acording to both the chart and Whis in episode 67, Beerus was the one who changed timelines, so Trunks must have been in Black's rimeline. Also, yeah, the chart actually says that Black's timeline is exactly the same except that Zamasu succes in killing Gowasu. I suppose the chart contradicts itself?

It doesn't make any sense, but that's what Toei is telling us.

Are you speaking about the old chart?: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cv7LWLIVUAA ... &name=orig ?
"Zamasu had come from a history similar to the present history, but in which he succeed to kill Gowasu"
It say similar not the exact same.

In the updated chart, it isn't there anymore:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0L2CnqUsAA ... &name=orig
It is written this :
"It is split into several histories due to Future Trunks coming to Goku's history"

Or are you speaking about something else?

[MisteryOne]

Are you speaking about the old chart?: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cv7LWLIVUAA ... &name=orig ?
"Zamasu had come from a history similar to the present history, but in which he succeed to kill Gowasu"
It say similar not the exact same.

In the updated chart, it isn't there anymore:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0L2CnqUsAA ... &name=orig
It is written this :
"It is split into several histories due to Future Trunks coming to Goku's history"

Or are you speaking about something else?

I see, it says similar, not the same. Then it can make sense, but in order to that Zamasu should battle Goku for another reason.

But then again, Whis says Beerus is the one to separate timelines. I suppose it's an error or something

[Noah]

The amount of homework Toei did about DB/DBZ keeps me surprsing to no end. Never in my life I thought that guy would appear in the show.
No way they forgot about Bra or that the new generation must grow up, if they remember little stuff like this. They are most likely just waiting for Toriyama to come up with new designs.

Only if they could also remember how power scaling is important to this series. (It is good to keep fans sanity intact)

[TheMikado]

The amount of homework Toei did about DB/DBZ keeps me surprsing to no end. Never in my life I thought that guy would appear in the show.
No way they forgot about Bra or that the new generation must grow up, if they remember little stuff like this. They are most likely just waiting for Toriyama to come up with new designs.

Only if they could also remember how power scaling is important to this series. (It is good to keep fans sanity intact)

And timelines as per the above conversation.

[Hellspawn28]

I think the upcoming arc could be have the universes be destroyed to get rid of too many powerful enemies. Maybe Zeno and The Grand Priest feels like the universes were growing too strong and numerous for the universes to handle.

Does something actually exist which zeno can't handle?
He is just doing it probably because he is a kid who knows no good

Maybe the tournament is something set up by the Grand Priest and he made Zeno agree to it.

[Nejishiki]

Maybe the tournament is something set up by the Grand Priest and he made Zeno agree to it.

If promotion is to be trusted, it was Goku himself who spearheaded the competition. I can see this hypothetical interpretation of Grand Priest anticipating that action though.

[DBS916]

Maybe the tournament is something set up by the Grand Priest and he made Zeno agree to it.

If promotion is to be trusted, it was Goku himself who spearheaded the competition. I can see this hypothetical interpretation of Grand Priest anticipating that action though.

Agreed. It wouldn't surprise me if Goku helps his team to victory, then he would be able to train under the Grand Priest.