Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Regular Perfect Cell. Goku never saw SPC, and even if Goku sensed him on the Otherworld, he said to Kaioshin Dabura was trash to him and Vegeta, and he even knows Vegeta can turn SSJ2.

Well he should be able to sense him from Otherworld but Goku didn't know that Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2 until he actually did so at the Tournament right? Which was after he said they said they could handle Dabura.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Regular Perfect Cell. Goku never saw SPC, and even if Goku sensed him on the Otherworld, he said to Kaioshin Dabura was trash to him and Vegeta, and he even knows Vegeta can turn SSJ2.

Well he should be able to sense him from Otherworld but Goku didn't know that Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2 until he actually did so at the Tournament right? Which was after he said they said they could handle Dabura.

If with Tournament you means when Majin Vegeta killed all those people: Yep, this is the first time he shows SSJ2.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

When Goku said that Dabura was about the same as Cell was he referring to Perfect Cell or Super Perfect Cell?

Super Perfect Cell.


Perfect Cell<<<Super Perfect Cell=Dabura=Kid Gohan SS2 50%<<<Teen Gohan SS2<Vegeta SS2<Kid Gohan SS2<Majin Vegeta SS2=Goku SS2.

[Bullza]

Someone sum up the whole Buu confusion for me.

1. Is the original Fat Buu who first showed up as strong as the one who later fought Kid Buu and the one whose in Dragon Ball Super or did it get weaker after spitting out the Evil Buu?

2. Is Kid Buu stronger than the original Fat Buu. I know it's stronger than the one he fought but if that's a weaker Fat Buu than the original one then that's why I'm asking. I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be stronger either way though.

3. How strong is the Evil Buu supposed to be? He made much quicker work of Fat Buu than Kid Buu did afterall.

4. Was Super Buu supposed to be much stronger than Fat Buu or was it supposed to be roughly the same except it was now more suited for battle?

[DanielSSJ]

Someone sum up the whole Buu confusion for me.

1. Is the original Fat Buu who first showed up as strong as the one who later fought Kid Buu and the one whose in Dragon Ball Super or did it get weaker after spitting out the Evil Buu?

2. Is Kid Buu stronger than the original Fat Buu. I know it's stronger than the one he fought but if that's a weaker Fat Buu than the original one then that's why I'm asking. I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be stronger either way though.

3. How strong is the Evil Buu supposed to be? He made much quicker work of Fat Buu than Kid Buu did afterall.

4. Was Super Buu supposed to be much stronger than Fat Buu or was it supposed to be roughly the same except it was now more suited for battle?

Here is how I would go to explain all the weird power relations with all the forms of Majin Boo, starting with Pure Boo:

For whatever reason Boo-on-Kaioshin absorption seems to work differently than when Boo absorbs other beings. When Boo absorbs them, his entire being seems to be affected on a more basic, fundamental level. This possibly explains why Bobbidi couldn't use Shin's or Kibito's energy to revive Boo. Anyways, when Pure Boo (the small childlike one) first absorbed the burly and battle-oriented South Kaioshin, he gained a strong physique designed for fighting and his power increased manifold, despite the fact that South Kaioshin should've been a lot weaker than Pure Boo. This one we'll call Buff Boo.

When he later absorbs the gentle and chubby Grand Kaioshin, Boo loses a lot of that power and ends up weaker than the original Pure Boo. Whether it's because of Grand Kaioshin's obese body or because the Grand Kaioshin's pure goodness clashed with Boo's pure evil, or both is up to you, though I bet on the later.

When Boo splits and recombines with evil in control, he regains a huge portion of the power than South Kaioshin provided (but not all of it). Essentially, Evil/Super Boo is the Buff Boo Lite.

Moving on to your individual questions:
1. Boo did indeed get weaker when he split into good and evil. Here's the quote from the Strength Checker

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

Now whether or not Boo regained his original power during all the absorption shenanigans is up for debate. Since the original Fat Boo is implied to be about twice as strong as the Super Saiyan 2 characters, having lost over half of his power would probably put Vegeta ahead of him in the power department. However, Mister Boo lasts longer than Vegeta did against Pure Boo (the small childlike one), but that could be attributed to Boo's regeneration rather than his strength. In fact, it seemed to me that Vegeta ended up dealing more damage to Pure Boo despite getting beaten faster. Really it's up to you.

2. Pure Boo is almost assuredly stronger than the original Fat Boo. Goku said that he could've killed Fat Boo at SS3, but when he fought Pure Boo, he was evenly matched. Of course, Goku could've been referring to his hypothetical full power which he intended to use to kill Pure Boo, but I still think that both Goku and Pure Boo have a significant lead over Fat Boo.

3. The Boo of Pure Evil (aka the skinny grey one) makes up the majority of Fat Boo's original power. If Fat Boo was a 10, Pure Evil Boo probably would've been a 6, and Mr. Boo a 4. The reason why Mr. Boo lasted longer against Pure Boo over the Boo of Pure Evil was because he got hit with his own candy beam, ending the match early.

4. Due to the fact that Goku displayed utter confidence about beating Fat Boo, but was completely opposed to fighting Evil Boo (the tall muscular one), I would say that Evil Boo is much stronger than either Fat Boo and Pure Boo.

In terms of numbers, here's how they all relate to one another:

Pure Boo: 20

Buff Boo(Pure Boo + South Kaioshin: 60

Fat Boo (Pure Boo + South Kaioshin + Grand Kaioshin): 12
-- Pure Evil Boo: 7.5
-- Good Boo/Mr. Boo: 4.5

Evil Boo: 50
-- Gotenks Boo: 100
-- Gohan Boo: 125

[Big Green The Yoshi]

My Battle Powers:


Transformations:


Saiyajins:

Oozaru: x10 Base
Super Saiyajin: x50 Base
Ultra Super Saiyajin: x2.22 Super Saiyajin
Ultra Super Saiyajin 2: x4.44 Ultra Super Saiyajin
Super Saiyajin 2: x10 Super Saiyajin

Namekians:

False Super Namekian: x5 Base
Super Namekian: x2 False Super Namekian

Cell:

Full Power Imperfect: x5 Base
Full Power Semi Perfect: x3.33 Imperfect
Full Power Perfect: x150 Semi Perfect


Ki Amplification:


Kamehameha: x1.25
Makankosappo: x1.8
Makankosappo (no charge time): x1.5
Scattering Bullet: x1.285
Kikoho: x1.67
Kienzan: x1.875
Masenko: x1.33
Gyarikku Hou: x1.67
Final Crash: x1.4
Final Burst Cannon: x1.5
Gekiretsu Kodan: x2.5
Shin Kikoho: x1,000
Final Flash: x5
Super Kamehameha: x3.33


Saiyajin Arc:


Goku:
Initial: 739
Kamehameha: 924
Post Training Initial: 5,000
Post Training Full Power: 8,000
Kaioken x2: 16,000
Kaioken x3: 24,000
Kaioken x3 Kamehameha: 30,000
Kaioken x4: 32,000
Kaioken x4 Kamehameha: 40,000

Piccolo:
Initial: 739
Makankosappo: 1,330
Post Training: 1,800
Makankosappo: 2,700

Gohan:
Initial: 1
Post Training: 1,350
Rage Boost: 2,100
Masenko: 2,800

Krillin:
Initial: 206
Post Training: 1,400
Scattering Bullet: 1,800
Kienzan: 2,625

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 250
Post Training: 1,500
Kikoho: 2,500

Yamcha:
Initial: 177
Post Training: 1,333

Chaozu:
Initial: 155
Post Training: 1,000

Yajirobi:
Initial: 150
Post Training: 800

Master Roshi:
Initial: 111
Full Power: 139

Saibamen: 1,200

Raditz: 1,250

Nappa:
Initial: 3,000
Full Power: 7,500

Vegeta:
Initial: 14,000
Full Power: 18,000
Gyarikku Hou: 30,000
Oozaru: 180,000


Freeza Arc:


Goku:
Initial: 8,000
Post Training Initial: 5,000
Post Training Suppressed: 66,667
Post Training Full Power: 90,000
Post Zenkai: 7,000,000
Kaioken x20: 140,000,000
Kamehameha: 175,000,000
Super Saiyajin: 350,000,000

Gohan:
Initial: 1,350
Post Guru Power Up Namek Saga: 14,000
Post Guru Power Up Ginyu Saga: 28,000
Post Guru Power Up Freeza Saga: 450,000
Rage Boost: 900,000

Krillin:
Initial: 1,400
Post Guru Power Up Namek Saga: 13,000
Post Guru Power Up Ginyu Saga: 26,000
Post Guru Power Up Freeza Saga: 400,000
Kienzan: 750,000

Piccolo:
Initial: 1,800
Post Training: 350,000
Post Nail Fusion Initial: 1,250,000
Post Nail Fusion Full Power: 1,750,000

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 1,500
Post Training: 300,000

Yamcha:
Initial: 1,333
Post Training: 250,000

Chaozu:
Initial: 1,000
Post Training: 5,000

Nail: 42,000

Cui: 18,000

Dodoria: 20,000

Zarbon:
Suppressed Form: 22,000
True Form: 28,000

Gurudo: 10,000

Reacoom: 40,000

Buhteh: 40,000

Jheese: 40,000

Ginyu:
Initial: 75,000
Full Power: 120,000

Vegeta:
Initial: 24,000
Post Namek Saga Zenkai: 30,000
Final Crash: 42,000
Post Ginyu Saga Zenkai: 500,000
Post Freeza Saga Zenkai: 5,000,000
Final Burst Cannon: 7,500,000

Freeza:
3rd Suppression Form Initial: 200,000
3rd Suppression Form Full Power: 530,000
2nd Suppression Form Initial: 1,000,000
2nd Suppression Form Powered Up: 1,200,000
2nd Suppression Form Full Power: 1,500,000
3rd Suppression Form: 2,500,000
True Form Initial: 4,500,000
True Form Warming Up: 7,500,000
True Form 50%: 162,500,000
True Form 70%: 227,500,000
True Form 100%: 325,000,000


Cell Arc:


Gohan:
Base: 450,000
Post Training: 33,000,000
Post ROSAT Base: 24,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 1,200,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin 2: 12,000,000,000,000
Super Kamehameha: 40,000,000,000,000

Goku:
Base: 13,333,333
Super Saiyajin: 666,666,667
Post Training Base: 38,000,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 1,900,000,000
Post ROSAT Base: 16,000,000,000
Post ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 800,000,000,000

Vegeta:
Base: 10,000,000
Post Training Base: 40,000,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 2,000,000,000
Post 1st ROSAT Base: 600,000,000
Post 1st ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 30,000,000,000
Post 1st ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin: 66,666,666,667
Final Flash: 333,333,333,333
Post 2nd ROSAT Base: 11,200,000,000
Post 2nd ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 560,000,000,000

Future Trunks:
Base: 12,000,000
Super Saiyajin: 600,000,000
Post Training Base: 36,000,000
Post Training Super Saiyajin: 1,800,000,000
Post 1st ROSAT Base: 540,000,000
Post 1st ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 27,000,000,000
Post 1st ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin: 60,000,000,000
Post 1st ROSAT Ultra Super Saiyajin 2: 266,666,666,667
Post 2nd ROSAT Base: 10,666,666,667
Post 2nd ROSAT Super Saiyajin: 533,333,333,333,333

The Nameless Namek:
Initial: 9,500,000
Post Training: 1,600,000,000
Post God Fusion: 3,200,000,000
Gekiretsu Kodan: 8,000,000,000
Post ROSAT: 8,000,000,000

Krillin:
Initial: 400,000
Post Training: 30,000,000

Tenshinhan:
Initial: 300,000
Post Training: 20,000,000
Shin Kikoho: 20,000,000,000

Yamcha:
Initial: 250,000
Post Training: 15,000,000

Mecha Freeza:
Initial: 200,000,000
Full Power: 400,000,000

King Cold: 250,000,000

Android #19:
Initial: 800,000,000
Post Absorbtions: 1,200,000,000

Cyborg #20:
Initial: 888,888,889
Post Absorbtions: 1,333,333,333

Cyborg #17: 3,200,000,000

Cyborg #18: 3,000,000,000

Android #16: 12,000,000,000

Cell Juniors: 640,000,000,000

Cell:
Imperfect Initial: 2,400,000,000
Imperfect Post Absorbtions: 12,000,000,000
Semi Perfect Initial: 30,000,000,000
Full Power Semi Perfect: 40,000,000,000
Perfect 1%: 60,000,000,000
Perfect 3.33%: 200,000,000,000
Perfect 5%: 300,000,000,000
Perfect 16.67%: 1,000,000,000,000
Perfect 100%: 6,000,000,000,000
Buff Beyond Limits Perfect: 10,800,000,000,000
Super Perfect: 11,400,000,000,000
Super Kamehameha: 38,000,000,000,000

[ekrolo2]

How strong would a hypothetical Ultimate Goten and Trunks be?

[Big Green The Yoshi]

I don't want to do the Boo Arc Battle Powers. Too much inconsistency.

[Noah]

Well he should be able to sense him from Otherworld but Goku didn't know that Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2 until he actually did so at the Tournament right? Which was after he said they said they could handle Dabura.

If with Tournament you means when Majin Vegeta killed all those people: Yep, this is the first time he shows SSJ2.

Nope, Vegeta didn't transformed in a SSJ2 when he was killing the expectators, he transformed for the first time after Goku did it in the wasteland, surprising him much:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well he should be able to sense him from Otherworld but Goku didn't know that Vegeta could transform into a SSJ2 until he actually did so at the Tournament right? Which was after he said they said they could handle Dabura.

If with Tournament you means when Majin Vegeta killed all those people: Yep, this is the first time he shows SSJ2.

Nope, Vegeta didn't transformed in a SSJ2 when he was killing the expectators, he transformed for the first time after Goku did it in the wasteland, surprising him much:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Oh, i totally forgot that scene.

Someone sum up the whole Buu confusion for me.

1. Is the original Fat Buu who first showed up as strong as the one who later fought Kid Buu and the one whose in Dragon Ball Super or did it get weaker after spitting out the Evil Buu?

2. Is Kid Buu stronger than the original Fat Buu. I know it's stronger than the one he fought but if that's a weaker Fat Buu than the original one then that's why I'm asking. I'm pretty sure he's supposed to be stronger either way though.

3. How strong is the Evil Buu supposed to be? He made much quicker work of Fat Buu than Kid Buu did afterall.

4. Was Super Buu supposed to be much stronger than Fat Buu or was it supposed to be roughly the same except it was now more suited for battle?

Here is how I would go to explain all the weird power relations with all the forms of Majin Boo, starting with Pure Boo:

For whatever reason Boo-on-Kaioshin absorption seems to work differently than when Boo absorbs other beings. When Boo absorbs them, his entire being seems to be affected on a more basic, fundamental level. This possibly explains why Bobbidi couldn't use Shin's or Kibito's energy to revive Boo. Anyways, when Pure Boo (the small childlike one) first absorbed the burly and battle-oriented South Kaioshin, he gained a strong physique designed for fighting and his power increased manifold, despite the fact that South Kaioshin should've been a lot weaker than Pure Boo. This one we'll call Buff Boo.

When he later absorbs the gentle and chubby Grand Kaioshin, Boo loses a lot of that power and ends up weaker than the original Pure Boo. Whether it's because of Grand Kaioshin's obese body or because the Grand Kaioshin's pure goodness clashed with Boo's pure evil, or both is up to you, though I bet on the later.

When Boo splits and recombines with evil in control, he regains a huge portion of the power than South Kaioshin provided (but not all of it). Essentially, Evil/Super Boo is the Buff Boo Lite.

Moving on to your individual questions:
1. Boo did indeed get weaker when he split into good and evil. Here's the quote from the Strength Checker

Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P7.4
Context: as the two Boos fight
Narrator: “The original Majin Boo had no chance of winning...This was because during the split, the majority of the power went to the evil one…"

Now whether or not Boo regained his original power during all the absorption shenanigans is up for debate. Since the original Fat Boo is implied to be about twice as strong as the Super Saiyan 2 characters, having lost over half of his power would probably put Vegeta ahead of him in the power department. However, Mister Boo lasts longer than Vegeta did against Pure Boo (the small childlike one), but that could be attributed to Boo's regeneration rather than his strength. In fact, it seemed to me that Vegeta ended up dealing more damage to Pure Boo despite getting beaten faster. Really it's up to you.

2. Pure Boo is almost assuredly stronger than the original Fat Boo. Goku said that he could've killed Fat Boo at SS3, but when he fought Pure Boo, he was evenly matched. Of course, Goku could've been referring to his hypothetical full power which he intended to use to kill Pure Boo, but I still think that both Goku and Pure Boo have a significant lead over Fat Boo.

3. The Boo of Pure Evil (aka the skinny grey one) makes up the majority of Fat Boo's original power. If Fat Boo was a 10, Pure Evil Boo probably would've been a 6, and Mr. Boo a 4. The reason why Mr. Boo lasted longer against Pure Boo over the Boo of Pure Evil was because he got hit with his own candy beam, ending the match early.

4. Due to the fact that Goku displayed utter confidence about beating Fat Boo, but was completely opposed to fighting Evil Boo (the tall muscular one), I would say that Evil Boo is much stronger than either Fat Boo and Pure Boo.

In terms of numbers, here's how they all relate to one another:

Pure Boo: 20

Buff Boo(Pure Boo + South Kaioshin: 60

Fat Boo (Pure Boo + South Kaioshin + Grand Kaioshin): 12
-- Pure Evil Boo: 7.5
-- Good Boo/Mr. Boo: 4.5

Evil Boo: 50
-- Gotenks Boo: 100
-- Gohan Boo: 125

I think Huge Buu is around 2x Pure Buu's power. In the anime, South Kaioshin fought evenly with Buu, and IIRC, it was stated somewhere the South Kaioshin was the only Kaioshin to hold his own against Buu. Fat Buu is Pure Buu + S. Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin, but Dai's goodness weakened Buu. Fat Buu's full power is weaker than Super Buu, since he can't use all his power due to Dai Kaioshin's influence. Evil Buu is the bad power of Fat Buu, and is probably on Pure Buu's level, and Good Buu is the good power, and is on SSJ2 tier, because like you said SSJ2 Vegeta did better against Pure Buu than Good Buu. Super Buu can use all his power, and that Bulked up form is just a Bulk Super Buu, since Goku said he is stronger than Regular Super Buu.

Pure Buu: 300
Huge Buu: 600
Hypotethical Huge Buu + Dai Kaioshin: 800
Fat Buu (Vs Goku): 200~250
Fat Buu (Full power): 450
Evil Buu: 300
Fat Buu: 100~150
Super Buu: 800
Buutenks: 1.600
Buuhan: 2.000
Bulked up: 1.000~1.200

I just confused myself. This means Mystic Gohan and SSJ3 Gotenks aren't on the trillions? SSJ Gotenks isn't on SSJ3 Goku's level? I never tought about it.

[Bullza]

On that subject how strong is Gotenks supposed to be compared to SSJ3 Goku?

[DBZ Macky]

How strong would a hypothetical Ultimate Goten and Trunks be?

Well, since the Trunks from the present is the same entity as the Trunks from the future, their potential would be quite similar. So I'd say "Ultimate Trunks" would be about as strong as his future counterpart's maximum power.
So, in the Manga, equal to SS3 Goku and in the Anime... a lot more.

I'd say "Ultimate Goten" would have the lead on Trunks though. I think he has more potential than Trunks.
He was able to fight on par with him despite being a year younger, after all.

[apex_pretador]

How strong do you guys have Goten, Trunks and Gotenks (Pre and post HTC)? They powers confuses me. Goten and Trunks as SSJs scared 18 with a ki blast, but some people still but they under her, and sometimes under the SSJs from Android arc. Gotenks bugs me too, people put him at SSJ3 Goku because Goku said to Buu Gotenks stronger than him, but it was just a guess! And why some people put his post HTC base at Majin Vegeta? This is insanely powerful!

Around the level of cell juniors, in between cell jr and CG piccolo.
Gotenks is weird, but I don't use the same multipliers for fusions as I do for single characters.

Anyway, what multiplier do you guys have for Frieza's golden form? I go with 2.5x personally.

Thousands , if not millions.

On that subject how strong is Gotenks supposed to be compared to SSJ3 Goku?

SS Gotenks < Goku (buu arc) < SS3 gotenks < BoG Goku

[DanielSSJ]

How strong would a hypothetical Ultimate Goten and Trunks be?

I would assume that the both of them would be within spitting distance of Ultimate Gohan. Maybe about as strong as Evil Boo and SS3 Gotenks?

[TheUltimateNinja]

On that subject how strong is Gotenks supposed to be compared to SSJ3 Goku?

Depends on your interpretation of the manga and the guides. I personally have Gotenks with a reduced SSJ3 multiplier which would place him 33% above SSJ3 Goku, and I have his SSJ above SSJ2 Goku.

At his weakest, Gotenks could be interpreted as weaker than SSJ3 Goku, and by a decent amount too. Almost everything in the manga and the guides contradict this, but the last few episodes of the anime suggest this. That's semi-filler and doesn't really count, though.

At his strongest, with maximum wanking, Gotenks could be interpreted to be 10,000x stronger than Goku. The manga and guides somewhat support this, but I believe it's wrong because of how ridiculous it is. The proof lies in the very vague and unsubstantiated claims that Base Gotenks Pre-RoSAT is comparable to Majin Vegeta since he didn't get killed by Buu, this would place him at 100x Goku. Next you have to assume that the slightly more substantiated but still ridiculous claim that Base Gotenks Post-RoSAT is considerably stronger than Goku is true, assuming a gap of 2x compared to his SSJ Pre-RoSAT, his new base would be 10,000x stronger than Goku.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How strong would a hypothetical Ultimate Goten and Trunks be?

I would assume that the both of them would be within spitting distance of Ultimate Gohan. Maybe about as strong as Evil Boo and SS3 Gotenks?

I wouldn't go that far, I'd place them between an older SSJ2 and Fat Buu.

On that subject how strong is Gotenks supposed to be compared to SSJ3 Goku?

SS Gotenks < Goku (buu arc) < SS3 gotenks < BoG Goku

Gotenks should be above BoG Goku.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

On that subject how strong is Gotenks supposed to be compared to SSJ3 Goku?

Forget what i said about the gaps on Buu forms. He get some power out of his ass.

SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu >>> SSJ3 Goku (Full power) >= SSJ Gotenks (Post HTC) > SSJ3 Goku (Supressed)

I have a question: On the Cell Games Vegeta and Piccolo were matched, and around 50% Goku. During 7 years Piccolo and Vegeta trained alone on earth and Goku trained on the Other World. Did Vegeta reached Goku's level?

And merry christmas for everyone!

[TheUltimateNinja]

I have a question: On the Cell Games Vegeta and Piccolo were matched, and around 50% Goku. During 7 years Piccolo and Vegeta trained alone on earth and Goku trained on the Other World. Did Vegeta reached Goku's level?

And merry christmas for everyone!

They weren't quite even, Vegeta was somewhat stronger than Piccolo. Anyway, Vegeta was still well below Goku after 7 years. That's why he intentionally fell under Babidi's spell, so he could boost his power to Goku's level.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I have a question: On the Cell Games Vegeta and Piccolo were matched, and around 50% Goku. During 7 years Piccolo and Vegeta trained alone on earth and Goku trained on the Other World. Did Vegeta reached Goku's level?

And merry christmas for everyone!

They weren't quite even, Vegeta was somewhat stronger than Piccolo. Anyway, Vegeta was still well below Goku after 7 years. That's why he intentionally fell under Babidi's spell, so he could boost his power to Goku's level.

But does he still around half of Goku? He can be evern less of that, since Goku trained better than Vegeta, on the Other World.

[Bullza]

So how strong is Base Gotenks and Super Saiyan Gotenks before entering the ROSAT then?

Is there any evidence that puts SSJ Gotenks above or below SSJ3 Goku at all! I know this has always been one of the most debated power level things in the series so I'd guess not.