Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

What's the problem with Kaioken x10 surpassing Beerus again?

He didn't use x10 against merged Zamasu and against Hit, he was clearly fucking his shit up before powering down to x2 (x2 and x10 have a very different effect on Goku's skin tone and the battlefield).

The problem is you make Toriyama a very sad panda if you don't conform to his "Beerus & Whis are the most 1337 mofos ever!" logic.

I'm sure you'd make Toriyama a very sad panda if by the end of the Boo arc you told him "So, Gohan was stronger than Goku by the end, right?" but that doesn't mean it's not what the story portrayed.

Plus, Kaioken was Toei's idea to begin with.

[ekrolo2]

I'm sure you'd make Toriyama a very sad panda if by the end of the Boo arc you told him "So, Gohan was stronger than Goku by the end, right?" but that doesn't mean it's not what the story portrayed.

Plus, Kaioken was Toei's idea to begin with.

I know, I was just being snarky. Honestly, KKX10 being stronger than Beerus shouldn't really be an issue. If anything, trying to make it, Vegetto Blue and Merged Zamasu inferior to Beerus just makes Battle of Gods even more laughable than it already is and really sends the message that Goku & Vegeta should give up if their best fusion can't pull it off.

[TheUltimateNinja]

It was retconned when it was confirmed that even SSBlue Kaioken x10 Goku is nothing compared to Beerus.

No it wasn't since it was never implied that Beerus needed to used 10% of his power to beat Rage Vegeta, only that he used 10%. This is like saying Freeza needed 50% or even 30% of his power to beat pre-Super Saiyan Goku because that's how much he used against Goku.

Frieza definitely needed at least 30% of his power against Kaioken x10 Goku. He needed 50% to beat him effortlessly because at a lower level of power Goku was still able to put up a fight.

What's the problem with Kaioken x10 surpassing Beerus again?

He didn't use x10 against merged Zamasu and against Hit, he was clearly fucking his shit up before powering down to x2 (x2 and x10 have a very different effect on Goku's skin tone and the battlefield).

The problem is it contradicts the narrative. According to the story Beerus > Kaioken x10 Goku. It makes no sense that he got nervous and started sweating when Goku was only using x2 if he's stronger than x10, but that's just what the story wants us to accept.

[Doctor.]

The problem is it contradicts the narrative. According to the story Beerus > Kaioken x10 Goku. It makes no sense that he got nervous and started sweating when Goku was only using x2 if he's stronger than x10, but that's just what the story wants us to accept.

I don't see how the story wants us to accept that if x2 Goku made Champa sit down and Beerus sweat. It's clear enough that Kaioken Goku is supposed to be a threat.

[HeroR]

Frieza definitely needed at least 30% of his power against Kaioken x10 Goku. He needed 50% to beat him effortlessly because at a lower level of power Goku was still able to put up a fight.

Freeza was beating Goku senseless with less than a third of his power. We know this since Freeza bragged about it while beating the shit out of Goku. 50% was just overkill. He did need 50% of his power at all.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Frieza definitely needed at least 30% of his power against Kaioken x10 Goku. He needed 50% to beat him effortlessly because at a lower level of power Goku was still able to put up a fight.

Freeza was beating Goku senseless with less than a third of his power. We know this since Freeza bragged about it while beating the shit out of Goku. 50% was just overkill. He did need 50% of his power at all.

What? Frieza didn't say anything about using only a third of his power, 50% is the only number he mentions.

[HeroR]

What? Frieza didn't say anything about using only a third of his power, 50% is the only number he mentions.

While he was beating on Goku he said, 'Forget half. I'm just using a third'.

[TheUltimateNinja]

What? Frieza didn't say anything about using only a third of his power, 50% is the only number he mentions.

While he was beating on Goku he said, 'Forget half. I'm just using a third'.

He didn't, I know that portion of the manga quite well and the 50% line is the only time he mentions what portion of power he's using before Goku turns Super Saiyan.

[TheMikado]

What? Frieza didn't say anything about using only a third of his power, 50% is the only number he mentions.

While he was beating on Goku he said, 'Forget half. I'm just using a third'.

Wouldn't this confirm the trend in the Dragonball universe where enemies don't overcompensate by unnecessarily powering up? Like if Frieza only increased his levels to matched his enemies approximate power would t it be reasonable to say Beerus did the same against Rageta?

[HeroR]

What? Frieza didn't say anything about using only a third of his power, 50% is the only number he mentions.

While he was beating on Goku he said, 'Forget half. I'm just using a third'.

Wouldn't this confirm the trend in the Dragonball universe where enemies don't overcompensate by unnecessarily powering up? Like if Frieza only increased his levels to matched his enemies approximate power would t it be reasonable to say Beerus did the same against Rageta?

Not really since one third of Freeza's power is 20-30 million to Goku's 3 million. He isn't matching Goku at all.

[Bullza]

He used 10%

On both Rageta and SSJG Goku? Impossible.

The 10% line was most likely added by some imbecile writer who has no idea what he's doing, it has no bearing on the story and has been retconned.

He wasn't the imbecile, whoever wrote that was actually consistent with what was said in the movie and Toriyama's comments.

The imbeciles are the ones who changed everything for no reason.

[TheUltimateNinja]

While he was beating on Goku he said, 'Forget half. I'm just using a third'.

Wouldn't this confirm the trend in the Dragonball universe where enemies don't overcompensate by unnecessarily powering up? Like if Frieza only increased his levels to matched his enemies approximate power would t it be reasonable to say Beerus did the same against Rageta?

Not really since one third of Freeza's power is 20-30 million to Goku's 3 million. He isn't matching Goku at all.

Goku was using Kaioken x10 at that point which put him at 30 million.

[TheMikado]

While he was beating on Goku he said, 'Forget half. I'm just using a third'.

Wouldn't this confirm the trend in the Dragonball universe where enemies don't overcompensate by unnecessarily powering up? Like if Frieza only increased his levels to matched his enemies approximate power would t it be reasonable to say Beerus did the same against Rageta?

Not really since one third of Freeza's power is 20-30 million to Goku's 3 million. He isn't matching Goku at all.

Wait why aren't you using his kaioken numbers? That doesn't really make sense? Frieza would have matched his power output at the time? I'm not sure how using his base numbers as a basis for comparison is reasonable.

[TheUltimateNinja]

On both Rageta and SSJG Goku? Impossible.

The 10% line was most likely added by some imbecile writer who has no idea what he's doing, it has no bearing on the story and has been retconned.

He wasn't the imbecile, whoever wrote that was actually consistent with what was said in the movie and Toriyama's comments.

The imbeciles are the ones who changed everything for no reason.

It's still stupid because that makes him stronger than Super Vegetto. The info we're given in the movies: 70% of Beerus > SSGod Goku > Vegetto.
And SSJ3 = 8x SSJ, therefore Super Vegetto is considerably less than 1/8th of 70%, this means that Vegeta was actually able to surpass or at least match Super Vegetto.

[HeroR]

Wouldn't this confirm the trend in the Dragonball universe where enemies don't overcompensate by unnecessarily powering up? Like if Frieza only increased his levels to matched his enemies approximate power would t it be reasonable to say Beerus did the same against Rageta?

Not really since one third of Freeza's power is 20-30 million to Goku's 3 million. He isn't matching Goku at all.

Wait why aren't you using his kaioken numbers? That doesn't really make sense? Frieza would have matched his power output at the time? I'm not sure how using his base numbers as a basis for comparison is reasonable.

Goku's x10 Kaioken wouldn't be 30 million because Goku's power was dropping as he got beaten as Freeza noted and the Kaioken are short busts. Even then, that's still only half of Freeza's power at half strength, so it's still overkill.

[HeroR]

It's still stupid because that makes him stronger than Super Vegetto. The info we're given in the movies: 70% of Beerus > SSGod Goku > Vegetto.
And SSJ3 = 8x SSJ, therefore Super Vegetto is considerably less than 1/8th of 70%, this means that Vegeta was actually able to surpass or at least match Super Vegetto.

Maybe he did past Vegetto. What's your point? And, again, who said Beerus needed 10% of his power. As far as you know, he only needed 5%, but used 10% for the laughs. Despite that line, Rage Vegeta in Super performed worst than Rage Vegeta in the movie.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I think we can employ a little common sense and say 100 times stronger is not near his level. The gulf between SSJ1 and SSJ2 no one would call near and it was "only" 2x as strong as SSJ1; differences of far less than twice as strong have resulted in lopsided fights before. I've also seen two other translations that translated it as "equal" rather than "near" which suggests to me the original language means a insignificant difference. It would be nice to have a breakdown of what that line means.

If >10% SSB Vegeta was close to SS Goku, why didn't Goku just use Super Saiyan 2 then? Goku had already surpassed Hit with Super Saiyan in raw power, and he had learned how to counter his Tokitobashi by predicting his movements. If SS2 Goku was stronger than SSB Vegeta, why didn't Goku use that?

And as for how near, you have to define near. SS2 is on a whole different level compared to SS with a x2 boost. However, if you compare SS to SSG, even SS3 is near SS if you compare the gap between SS & SSG.

[TheMikado]

Not really since one third of Freeza's power is 20-30 million to Goku's 3 million. He isn't matching Goku at all.

Wait why aren't you using his kaioken numbers? That doesn't really make sense? Frieza would have matched his power output at the time? I'm not sure how using his base numbers as a basis for comparison is reasonable.

Goku's x10 Kaioken wouldn't be 30 million because Goku's power was dropping as he got beaten as Freeza noted and the Kaioken are short busts. Even then, that's still only half of Freeza's power at half strength, so it's still overkill.

Nothing your saying is making sense right now

We know Gokus stamina was dropping but nothing to indicate he wasn't using his 3 million base power level which combined with the x10 kaioken would be 30 million.

Meanwhile Frieza at 1/3 his full strength (if that's even true) is 33 million, just above Gokus max output at kaioken x10. That's not a coincidence and it was revealed Goku was using kaioken for most of the fight. Further if Gokus power was that low why not just use 1/4 or go the full 50% from the jump.

The point I'm making is that enemies don't dramatically over power like you seem to suggest beerus is doing. That's just not what happens in the Dragonball universe and it's head canon to claim that Beerus didn't need to use it. In universe, there's never been a case documented like you're claiming for head cannon, however we have plenty of enemies incremental getting stronger to match their foes as they needed it.

[Legion]

For me this "10% against Rageta" it's Toei bullshit at this point, even the manga says nothing about this. And i don't think that Toriyama still thinks about numbers and percentages. Obviously there is no way that Goku kkx10 is stronger than Beerus (or that Beerus is scared of him lol).

[Jaden]

Hey guys

I don't usually tend to post anything on the forums , rather read others' posts, I'll take my chance this time

I'd like to know how would you power scale the following characters and why:

1. Beerus
   Whis
   Golden Frieza - Without stamina issue
   Vegeta (SSB)
   Goku (SSB)
   Vegito (SSB)
   Goku Black (SSR)
   Fusion Zamasu
   Hit

In my point of view I'd rank them like this:
Whis > Vegito (SSB) > Fusion Zamasu > Beerus > Golden Frieza > Goku Black(SSR) = Goku(SSB) = Vegeta(SSB) > Hit

The reason I put Vegito and Fusion Zamasu above Beerus is solely because of what Whis said in RF (that if Goku and Vegeta would team up they could potentially cause Beerus problems) so I do believe that a fusion between the two would be enough to take him down.

I also believe that Hit is not as strong as a SSB which is why I put him last. Only reason he was able to take Goku down was because of his special technique.

What are your thoughts?