Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[hiperion]

Hey guys

I don't usually tend to post anything on the forums , rather read others' posts, I'll take my chance this time

I'd like to know how would you power scale the following characters and why:

1. Beerus
   Whis
   Golden Frieza - Without stamina issue
   Vegeta (SSB)
   Goku (SSB)
   Vegito (SSB)
   Goku Black (SSR)
   Fusion Zamasu
   Hit

In my point of view I'd rank them like this:
Whis > Vegito (SSB) > Fusion Zamasu > Beerus > Golden Frieza > Goku Black(SSR) = Goku(SSB) = Vegeta(SSB) > Hit

The reason I put Vegito and Fusion Zamasu above Beerus is solely because of what Whis said in RF (that if Goku and Vegeta would team up they could potentially cause Beerus problems) so I do believe that a fusion between the two would be enough to take him down.

I also believe that Hit is not as strong as a SSB which is why I put him last. Only reason he was able to take Goku down was because of his special technique.

What are your thoughts?

Goku Black in his Rose form is shown to be stronger than Vegeta and Goku when he learned how to channel his anger/rage into his power.Other then that i think it's good.Of course we are not sure about Vegito and Merged Zamasu power but i would also put them above Beerus.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hey guys

I don't usually tend to post anything on the forums , rather read others' posts, I'll take my chance this time

I'd like to know how would you power scale the following characters and why:

1. Beerus
   Whis
   Golden Frieza - Without stamina issue
   Vegeta (SSB)
   Goku (SSB)
   Vegito (SSB)
   Goku Black (SSR)
   Fusion Zamasu
   Hit

In my point of view I'd rank them like this:
Whis > Vegito (SSB) > Fusion Zamasu > Beerus > Golden Frieza > Goku Black(SSR) = Goku(SSB) = Vegeta(SSB) > Hit

The reason I put Vegito and Fusion Zamasu above Beerus is solely because of what Whis said in RF (that if Goku and Vegeta would team up they could potentially cause Beerus problems) so I do believe that a fusion between the two would be enough to take him down.

I also believe that Hit is not as strong as a SSB which is why I put him last. Only reason he was able to take Goku down was because of his special technique.

What are your thoughts?

Golden Frieza is much weaker than Goku Black, unless you're talking about the manga? Anyway, if this is for the anime, I'd do:
Whis > Beerus > Vegetto Blue ~ Merged Zamasu > Hit > SSRose Black > SSBlue Goku ~ SSBlue Vegeta > Golden Frieza

For the manga:
Vegetto Blue (?) ~ Merged Zamasu (?) ~ Whis > Beerus > Golden Frieza > SSRose Black (?) ~ SSBlue Goku = SSBlue Vegeta > Hit

The (?)s indicate characters we haven't seen yet and are unsure of, the ~s indicate a slight difference in strength.

[Jaden]

Golden Frieza is much weaker than Goku Black, unless you're talking about the manga? Anyway, if this is for the anime, I'd do:
Whis > Beerus > Vegetto Blue ~ Merged Zamasu > Hit > SSRose Black > SSBlue Goku ~ SSBlue Vegeta > Golden Frieza

For the manga:
Vegetto Blue (?) ~ Merged Zamasu (?) ~ Whis > Beerus > Golden Frieza > SSRose Black (?) ~ SSBlue Goku = SSBlue Vegeta > Hit

The (?)s indicate characters we haven't seen yet and are unsure of, the ~s indicate a slight difference in strength.

I was actually talking about the anime.
Can I ask you why do you think Golden Frieza is weaker than Goku Black? What's your indication?
You also placed Hit above the likes of SSB Goku and Vegeta. Why is that?

[TheUltimateNinja]

Golden Frieza is much weaker than Goku Black, unless you're talking about the manga? Anyway, if this is for the anime, I'd do:
Whis > Beerus > Vegetto Blue ~ Merged Zamasu > Hit > SSRose Black > SSBlue Goku ~ SSBlue Vegeta > Golden Frieza

For the manga:
Vegetto Blue (?) ~ Merged Zamasu (?) ~ Whis > Beerus > Golden Frieza > SSRose Black (?) ~ SSBlue Goku = SSBlue Vegeta > Hit

The (?)s indicate characters we haven't seen yet and are unsure of, the ~s indicate a slight difference in strength.

I was actually talking about the anime.
Can I ask you why do you think Golden Frieza is weaker than Goku Black? What's your indication?
You also placed Hit above the likes of SSB Goku and Vegeta. Why is that?

Golden Frieza wasn't that far above Goku and Vegeta, he was definitely stronger but Goku was still able to put up a fight, he wasn't getting completely dominated. I'd estimate that Golden Frieza is approximately ~20% stronger than Goku and Vegeta.

But after that, Goku and Vegeta trained together for 3 years in the hyperbolic time chamber after which they became a decent amount stronger. Not a huge amount as they said they didn't greatly improve, but I'd estimate a 40-50% increase. This should already place them above Frieza by the tournament.

But in the Future Trunks Arc, Goku and Vegeta both say they've improved since the tournament, and they also become a great deal stronger throughout the course of the arc. Goku gets a lot stronger from rage boosts and presumably Zenkais, and Vegeta catches up by training for 6 months in the time chamber. They go from getting dominated by SSRose Black to overpowering him even after he powers up a few times from Zenkais, so that's a rather large boost there as well.

In total, currently they should be over twice as strong as they were back in the Frieza Arc.

Also, Hit effortlessly killed Goku in a single blow in the latest episode. And back in the Tournament Arc, despite being restricted by the no-killing rule he was able to take several hits from Kaioken Goku and also deal heavy damage to him.

[Bullza]

Yeah Golden Frieza was comfortably stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku at one point but not by a staggering amount or anything. They then grew stronger after that, then stronger from 3 years in the ROSAT and then stronger still by the Copy Water arc.

At that point surely they've gotta be close or have surpassed Golden Frieza's level and even Super Saiyan Rose Black Dagger form at his weakest version was overpowering Goku, Vegeta and Trunks together.

I couldn't see Golden Frieza doing that.

Hit is probably weaker power level wise than Golden Frieza at least at the Tournament but if the two fought Hit would win effortlessly.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hit is probably weaker power level wise than Golden Frieza at least at the Tournament but if the two fought Hit would win effortlessly.

Maybe initially but not after he improved. Each time he improved his time skip he also increased his power as well, as evidenced by the fact that Goku said that Hit's powered up attacks hurt a lot more after he improved his time skip.

[TheMikado]

Yeah Golden Frieza was comfortably stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku at one point but not by a staggering amount or anything. They then grew stronger after that, then stronger from 3 years in the ROSAT and then stronger still by the Copy Water arc.

At that point surely they've gotta be close or have surpassed Golden Frieza's level and even Super Saiyan Rose Black Dagger form at his weakest version was overpowering Goku, Vegeta and Trunks together.

I couldn't see Golden Frieza doing that.

Hit is probably weaker power level wise than Golden Frieza at least at the Tournament but if the two fought Hit would win effortlessly.

So this would put Trunks at Golden Freeza's level? I wonder where Cabba would be as a SSJ.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Yeah Golden Frieza was comfortably stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku at one point but not by a staggering amount or anything. They then grew stronger after that, then stronger from 3 years in the ROSAT and then stronger still by the Copy Water arc.

At that point surely they've gotta be close or have surpassed Golden Frieza's level and even Super Saiyan Rose Black Dagger form at his weakest version was overpowering Goku, Vegeta and Trunks together.

I couldn't see Golden Frieza doing that.

Hit is probably weaker power level wise than Golden Frieza at least at the Tournament but if the two fought Hit would win effortlessly.

So this would put Trunks at Golden Freeza's level? I wonder where Cabba would be as a SSJ.

Trunks should be stronger than Golden Frieza considering the fact that he's above Pre-Rage Boost Goku and Pre-RoSAT Vegeta.

[Bullza]

Ehhh I dunno if I'd put Trunks as that strong. After going back into the future as a Super Saiyan 2 I'd say he was at best about on SSJ3 Goku's level.

How the current SSJ3 Goku would compare to Golden Frieza we couldn't really say as we don't exactly know the kind of difference there is between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan Blue but I'd guess that whole Blue tier, Golden Frieza included, would still be a step above the regular Super Saiyan level.

He did get one over on Super Saiyan Rose Black though but whether that was a further rage boost or what I dunno.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Ehhh I dunno if I'd put Trunks as that strong. After going back into the future as a Super Saiyan 2 I'd say he was at best about on SSJ3 Goku's level.

How the current SSJ3 Goku would compare to Golden Frieza we couldn't really say as we don't exactly know the kind of difference there is between Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan Blue but I'd guess that whole Blue tier, Golden Frieza included, would still be a step above the regular Super Saiyan level.

He did get one over on Super Saiyan Rose Black though but whether that was a further rage boost or what I dunno.

I'm talking about Super Trunks.

[Bullza]

Oh Super Trunks would most likely be above Golden Frieza yeah. I'm starting to forget some of the details now but he was mostly on par with the Scimitar form of Super Saiyan Rose Black who was even stronger than the initial version.

Golden Frieza was strong enough to beat one Super Saiyan Blue but I highly doubt he'd have a chance against Goku and Vegeta together whereas Super Saiyan Rose Black was winning against both of them when they'd be even stronger and Trunks too.

Super Trunks was probably above that version of Black or at least comparable to it. He was practically in between beginning of arc Super Saiyan Blue and end of arc Super Saiyan Blue.

That's not including what could be another power up he had when he first fought Merged Zamasu around the time of the father son Galick Gun.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Why did Goku go SSGod vs Hit in the manga? He was doing great in SSJ, so by going SSJ2 he may have been able to win. Sure, it turned out that Hit was still hiding a lot of power, but Goku didn't know that. Was it because he was running out of stamina and wanted to end it quickly?

[ZombieVito]

Oh Super Trunks would most likely be above Golden Frieza yeah. I'm starting to forget some of the details now but he was mostly on par with the Scimitar form of Super Saiyan Rose Black who was even stronger than the initial version.

Golden Frieza was strong enough to beat one Super Saiyan Blue but I highly doubt he'd have a chance against Goku and Vegeta together whereas Super Saiyan Rose Black was winning against both of them when they'd be even stronger and Trunks too.

Super Trunks was probably above that version of Black or at least comparable to it. He was practically in between beginning of arc Super Saiyan Blue and end of arc Super Saiyan Blue.

That's not including what could be another power up he had when he first fought Merged Zamasu around the time of the father son Galick Gun.

How? Black even mocked him by saying he might get a bruise from his assault in episode 63.

[Abra kadabra]

Oh Super Trunks would most likely be above Golden Frieza yeah. I'm starting to forget some of the details now but he was mostly on par with the Scimitar form of Super Saiyan Rose Black who was even stronger than the initial version.

Golden Frieza was strong enough to beat one Super Saiyan Blue but I highly doubt he'd have a chance against Goku and Vegeta together whereas Super Saiyan Rose Black was winning against both of them when they'd be even stronger and Trunks too.

Super Trunks was probably above that version of Black or at least comparable to it. He was practically in between beginning of arc Super Saiyan Blue and end of arc Super Saiyan Blue.

That's not including what could be another power up he had when he first fought Merged Zamasu around the time of the father son Galick Gun.

How? Black even mocked him by saying he might get a bruise from his assault in episode 63.

Black is a cocky mofo. Trunks clearly knocked him out with that galick gun at least for a while. Although trunks was spent after that black had to stab him in the back whilst he was self destructing to put him out

[TheMikado]

Why did Goku go SSGod vs Hit in the manga? He was doing great in SSJ, so by going SSJ2 he may have been able to win. Sure, it turned out that Hit was still hiding a lot of power, but Goku didn't know that. Was it because he was running out of stamina and wanted to end it quickly?

From devilscorpes manga thread.

---------Part 1---------
Goku does indeed use Super Saiyan God in the manga version. Goten calls it Super Saiyan Red, but Trunks corrects him for being dumb and tells him it's Super Saiyan God. So they seem to be making fun of themselves.

Goku has the ability to transform and make himself stronger than Hit, but his Time-Skip is troublesome. So he conserves energy throughout the battle by transforming to only the stage he needs at the time.

Goku in Super Saiyan God is stated to be stronger than Vegeta in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan (while fighting Hit), and Goku can still utilize the latter transformation himself to grow even stronger. (Feels like karma for the anime bullshit of having Vegeta skip SSG.)

No SSGSS Kaio-ken.

---------Part 2---------
Fun note. Hit doesn't use ki/stamina to perform his Time-Skip. He can use it indefinitely without weakening himself, but can't use it when drained. As he states that he might only be able to handle one more Time-Skip at full power before it runs out.

Goku is stronger than Hit in terms of pure power with just SS, but he uses up too much stamina to keep up in that form. Goes SSG.

Hit can only fully Time-Stop opponents for the full 0.1 seconds if they're weaker than him. The further they are above him, the less it lasts. So when goku goes SSG, he has trouble holding him back the full time.

Unlike the anime where hit has a set level of power at first, and then later makes huge gains to his power and improved Time-Skip via "growth", Manga!Hit is just hiding his true power at first and unleashes it to counter SSG. He says it's been so long since he used it, that it may not even last a minute.

My biggest issue with the anime is solved here. Goku doesn't ask for the tournament to be turned into a death match. He realizes that, being an assassin, Hit is restricted by the rules. So he just exits the ring and asks to fight again some other time.

Vegeta isn't significantly weaker than Goku after all. Transforming into SSGSS burns through a lot of stamina and power. You can't use it multiple times in a row, even in short bursts. Transforming to show off for Cabba rended him to around 1/10 his full power against Hit.

Zeno's assistants don't seem to say Arale's "Bye'cha", at least not in the Korean version. That's...something.. I guess?

Sounds like SSJ wasn't enough to actually fully overpower the time skip which is separate from Hits battle power. In raw power Goku was stronger but Hit was holding back and afraid if he used his full power it wouldn't last long.
So it actually looks like God level is required for the skip to not be AS effective but still works. It's probably also safe to say that Hits true level is around SSG as that's when his full time skip begins reducing despite Hit repressing himself again the lower tiers of Goku.

If I'm understanding this right Repressed Hit ~ SSJ Goku
10% Vegeta SSB < Full Power Hit < SSG level
Hit time skip is independent of battle power and always works at full power regardless of repressed state of fighting power. Hence why Hit can beat Vegeta without going full strength and why SSJ Goku can stand up to Hit after he figures out how to counter the time skip.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Hit time skip is independent of battle power and always works at full power regardless of repressed state of fighting power. Hence why Hit can beat Vegeta without going full strength and why SSJ Goku can stand up to Hit after he figures out how to counter the time skip.

But when he powered up so far beyond his normal limits that he wouldn't even last for 1 minute, the power of his timeskip increased as well.

Before that SSGod Goku was breaking through his timeskip easily, this made Hit power up and say that at this level of power he can only do the timeskip 1 time, but this time he will definitely stop Goku. This forces Goku to power up to SSBlue to break Hit's timeskip, whereas earlier he could do it with SSGod.

[Legion]

The reason I put Vegito and Fusion Zamasu above Beerus is solely because of what Whis said in RF (that if Goku and Vegeta would team up they could potentially cause Beerus problems) so I do believe that a fusion between the two would be enough to take him down.

The movies are irrilevant with super.

[GodKaio-Ken]

The reason I put Vegito and Fusion Zamasu above Beerus is solely because of what Whis said in RF (that if Goku and Vegeta would team up they could potentially cause Beerus problems) so I do believe that a fusion between the two would be enough to take him down.

The movies are irrilevant with super.

Okay then go by the anime. Beerus crapped himself at Kaio-Ken x10 SSB. Even if we assume he was only worried because Goku was getting "closer" we still have to assume Vegito is much stronger than Goku x10.

Now what i think Beerus has that Goku doesnt is powerful techniques of destruction.

[Hugo Boss]

Why did Goku go SSGod vs Hit in the manga? He was doing great in SSJ, so by going SSJ2 he may have been able to win. Sure, it turned out that Hit was still hiding a lot of power, but Goku didn't know that. Was it because he was running out of stamina and wanted to end it quickly?

Goku needed SSG to get the advantage, otherwise he would get tired before Hit. So, SS2 or SS3 weren't viable options as well. I think Goku was expecting Hit to reveal his true strength though, when he was about to fire the kamehameha, but he realized Hit wasn't able to go further due to the restrictions.

Hit time skip is independent of battle power and always works at full power regardless of repressed state of fighting power. Hence why Hit can beat Vegeta without going full strength and why SSJ Goku can stand up to Hit after he figures out how to counter the time skip.

But when he powered up so far beyond his normal limits that he wouldn't even last for 1 minute, the power of his timeskip increased as well.

Before that SSGod Goku was breaking through his timeskip easily, this made Hit power up and say that at this level of power he can only do the timeskip 1 time, but this time he will definitely stop Goku. This forces Goku to power up to SSBlue to break Hit's timeskip, whereas earlier he could do it with SSGod.

Exactly. It wouldn't make sense if tokitobashi was independent of battle power since it only works if Hit's power isn't lower than his opponent. That is what he implied in this dialogue:

[spoiler]

Hit: "This is my full power. It's been so long since I used it that I don't think I'll last for over a minute... To be honest, I'll probably only be able to Time-Skip once more in this state. But that one time will be your end. I'll show you, definitely in 0.1 seconds."

[/spoiler]

On a note Vados says tokitobashi is independent on stamina. So, it makes sense that it has correlation with Hit's current powerlevel.

For more bits of dialogues about this chapter, you can read them at Super's mangá thread, page 319.

[Bullza]

Well I'm not going to be able to catch this upcoming episode live because I'm about to sleep but I'm going to guess that in their round 2 Goku and Hit will probably end up fighting an even battle which if that's the case would put Hit around Super Saiyan Rose Blacks level.

I doubt Hit is as strong as Merged Zamasu.