Character Growth/Development vs Out of Character

[goku the krump dancer]

So as the title says, what I'm hoping to do here is just start a conversation where we truly pick a apart and differentiate the moments where characters through out the series (Including Super & GT) either displayed moments of growth vs times where someone just wasn't him or herself for whatever reason.. One thing I want to say though is before we starting pointing fingers and yelling "He's out of Character", we should truly sit back and evaluate the entire context of the situation said character was in, why he did what he did and if he was indeed out of character, what would have been the appropriate action for said character to take..


What sparked this idea was in the recent episode of Super, in the midst of his training with Whis, Vegeta asked if he could be cut some slack just so he can go snoop on Goku and see what he's been up to? .. Now before I run off and say that wasn't standard Vegeta MO, I gave it a second though and considered that maybe, his character had grown so much that while yes even though Goku is his main rival, that he would opt to put his training on hold or not go as hard if it was important enough? Though now that I think about it.. His reasoning for wanting to pause on the training had everything to do with Goku so the stars may still align.

[ABED]

The biggest one that stands out is when Gohan becomes very timid and pacifistic right before the battle against Cell. The issue was never whether he liked battle, but he's never had an issue fighting the good fight, but now he's worried? He also spent most of the arc eager to help out and now he's shy? It is very out of character for Gohan at that point in the story and is done so for the sake of milking the drama.

[Doctor.]

I've used it as an example and I'll use it again. Goku saying to Baby Vegeta that he's an Earthling and not a Saiyan. This goes against his development in the Freeza arc where he accepts both sides of his heritage and promises to avenge the Saiyans for Vegeta. Even when Freeza calls him out on the fact that Saiyans were barbaric monsters, the exact same thing that Baby did in GT, Goku simply states "That's why we perished", instead of refusing to even identify himself as a Saiyan, instead of showing cowardice. This isn't character development or doesn't even have potential for character development because they go nowhere with it, it's never brought up again in the arc or the series itself. It's simply there to contradict pre-established character traits.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta bitching about fusing with Goku was some good cringe in Super 66, it didn't surprise me because I knew they'd do that the second Vegetto was revealed but still, cringe is cringe. His vow to beat Goku in the kanzenban ending of the manga is another that blazes my balls.

[sintzu]

Vegeta acting like a fool to please Beerus was development because he threw his pride to the side so earth and everything on it wouldn't be destroyed.

Vegeta acting like a fool to get Whis to train him was OOC cause it wasn't an emergancy that required such a drastic change in his personality.

Gohan not wanting to fight Cell wasn't OOC because he knew what would happen if he let go and he was right about it, it cost him his father and nearly the planet.

Gohan acting OOC when he said Cell didn't suffer enough was OOC but that was the point and even Piccolo pointed it out so it wasn't a writing error on Toriyama's part, it was to show what happens when a Saiyan gets that kind of power out of nowhere.

In the manga Piccolo ran away during the final KameHameHa between Gohan and Cell which is very OOC for someone who'd throw his life away for someone so thankfully the anime fixed it.

Some say that Piccolo turning good so fast was somewhat rushed or even OOC but I don't think so cause he didn't live a long evil life like his father did and as far as we know he didn't do anything evil in the 5 years after his fight with Goku so he wasn't all that bad to begin with.

I wouldn't call Goku not telling Gohan about his plan for Cell OOC but a bad move cause instead of leaving everything up to chance he could've trained him to unlock that power whenever he wanted to instead of waiting for him to snap cause for all he knew it could've been a one time thing only.

[ekrolo2]

In the manga Piccolo ran away during the final KameHameHa between Gohan and Cell which is very OOC for someone who'd throw his life away for someone so thankfully the anime fixed it.

Piccolo tells them to get away from it so they don't get killed by the clashing beams, not because he's suddenly less inclined to help Gohan or lost his spine. Nor does anyone have the time to jump in like the anime, the beams clash, everyone else is blown away then 3 pages later Vegeta sneak attacks Cell and Gohan kills him.

[sintzu]

In the manga Piccolo ran away during the final KameHameHa between Gohan and Cell which is very OOC for someone who'd throw his life away for someone so thankfully the anime fixed it.

Piccolo tells them to get away from it so they don't get killed by the clashing beams, not because he's suddenly less inclined to help Gohan or lost his spine. Nor does anyone have the time to jump in like the anime, the beams clash, everyone else is blown away then 3 pages later Vegeta sneak attacks Cell and Gohan kills him.

I still think Piccolo should've been written in somehow.

[ekrolo2]

In the manga Piccolo ran away during the final KameHameHa between Gohan and Cell which is very OOC for someone who'd throw his life away for someone so thankfully the anime fixed it.

Piccolo tells them to get away from it so they don't get killed by the clashing beams, not because he's suddenly less inclined to help Gohan or lost his spine. Nor does anyone have the time to jump in like the anime, the beams clash, everyone else is blown away then 3 pages later Vegeta sneak attacks Cell and Gohan kills him.

I still think Piccolo should've been written in somehow.

The anime bit is far superior to the manga in this regard but him getting blown away doesn't reflect badly on his character as though he's suddenly too afraid to help Gohan.

[kinisking]

The biggest one that stands out is when Gohan becomes very timid and pacifistic right before the battle against Cell. The issue was never whether he liked battle, but he's never had an issue fighting the good fight, but now he's worried? He also spent most of the arc eager to help out and now he's shy? It is very out of character for Gohan at that point in the story and is done so for the sake of milking the drama.

I completely agree. The boo saga ignores this characterization also so it definitely seems like it was an out of character moment to facilitate drama. It also kind of annoyed me that piccolo was chastising Goku for letting Gohan fight even though Piccolo knows Gohan's potential and willingness to fight when necessary.

[Ki Breaker]

I always think Vegeta's character has been destroyed, he was liked as a real warrior, tell me one instance in z where Vegeta went down in one blow, and yet we see him going down easily with a hand through him which goku easily fought with..
Say what you want but super has destroyed "Vegeta" as a whole, could you imagine Vegeta even bowing before anyone before? Now he is a bitch..

How would I even describe Vegeta now, just a guy who is trying be Goku's rival and fails miserably? He was much more than that before, much much more..
The amount of durability he had and his fight with kid buu made it possible to make a goku vs Vegeta possible without the results looking clear..
Now everyone including in universe people and his very own wife is absolutely sure Vegeta is of no worth in battle and goku is gonna save the day..

[Akyon]

Now everyone including in universe people and his very own wife is absolutely sure Vegeta is of no worth in battle and goku is gonna save the day..

That seems like a bit of a stretch.
Not that they think Goku's going to save the day(They've always used him as their trump card, and for the most part they've been right to do so), but to say Vegeta is of no worth in battle? Didn't he beat 3/5 of Universe 6 in the tournament? Hell, he would have beaten Botamo too had he gone up against him and it's only tricky Hit the time skipping assassin that stopped him.

Vegeta's not really a bitch. He's still aiming to be the best but his attitude regarding it is a lot healthier than before. I can't see Vegeta arrogantly allowing an opponent to transform to prove his superiority anymore only to get slapped down and complain about it afterwards. He trains dilligently, uses Goku's improvement to push him forward and is so far in front of the other main characters it's honestly embarrassing.

If bowing your head makes you a bitch then Beerus is also a bitch since Zeno exists. The vast majority of the characters are going to be bitches with the exception of Zeno, Goku(who acts the same regardless of who he meets) and maybe the angels(it's early days).

[kinisking]

I always think Vegeta's character has been destroyed, he was liked as a real warrior, tell me one instance in z where Vegeta went down in one blow, and yet we see him going down easily with a hand through him which goku easily fought with..
Say what you want but super has destroyed "Vegeta" as a whole, could you imagine Vegeta even bowing before anyone before? Now he is a bitch..

How would I even describe Vegeta now, just a guy who is trying be Goku's rival and fails miserably? He was much more than that before, much much more..
The amount of durability he had and his fight with kid buu made it possible to make a goku vs Vegeta possible without the results looking clear..
Now everyone including in universe people and his very own wife is absolutely sure Vegeta is of no worth in battle and goku is gonna save the day..

Are you kidding me? Vegetas at his absolute best now. If you really can't imagine Vegeta bowing to anyone even though he was a slave to Freeza then that's on you. And let's be honest, a Goku Vs Vegeta back then would have been obviously Goku. Vegeta kept standing back up but kid boo wasn't struggling and Vegeta looked like he was about to die again. Contrast that to gokus appearance. Also, dbz had Vegeta constantly bring leagues behind Goku in power. At least now they're fairly equal. It's not that Vegeta is useless, it's that Goku's simply a better fighter. Even DBZ vegeta knew that. Everyone knows that.

I prefer this new vegeta. Getting stronger than Goku isn't the only thing there is to him. He loves his family and wants to protect the world he lives on. He'd go through all these ridiculous things because he's able to put down his pride just for them. It's honestly amazing. He's become and independent character. Take away Goku in DBZ and vegeta has little to no motivation for anything. Take away goku in super and Vegeta still has just as much motivation.

[ABED]

Take away Goku in DBZ and vegeta has little to no motivation for anything.

His motivation is power.

[Lord Beerus]

Krillin not shutting down #18 and Vegeta allowing Cell to absorb #18 still makes zero sense, after all these years. This case is especially jarring because he's know to be very pragmatic and actually quite good in his decision making during critical times. Remember when he was about to kill Vegeta when he was weak and couldn't defend himself in the Saiyan arc and prevent him from coming back to harm Earth? The exact polar opposite happened in Cell arc with him not shutting down #18 when he knew very well what the stakes were and would happen if Cell absorbed #18. He literally put the world in grave danger for one woman he had the hots for. I mean, did it not cross his mind that once 18 is blown up, they could simply bring her back to life? Quite frankly, that was an incredibly OOC moment from Krillin, as he really should know better.

[CaroKami]

Vegeta allowing Cell to absorb #18 still makes zero sense

Didn't Vegeta allow Zarbon to transform? How is that any different?

[Ki Breaker]

If you really can't imagine Vegeta bowing to anyone even though he was a slave to Freeza then that's on you.

Vegeta loathed freeza for that and only resorted in bowing when it's absolutely must..
He is pretty much beerus's waterboy right now and he has no qualms with it except saying i will surpass him just once in entire series..
That's what bugs me, he dosen't visibly care about being ridiculed that bad

And let's be honest, a Goku Vs Vegeta back then would have been obviously Goku. Vegeta kept standing back up but kid boo wasn't struggling and Vegeta looked like he was about to die again. Contrast that to gokus appearance.

Yes, sure goku wins if they are both bloodlusted, but if not super Saiyan 3 was pretty useless in battle, and when Vegeta can take more than enough hits form kid buu he can do the same form super Saiyan 3 goku and still keep fighting, vegeta had a very small chance to win back then but had one nonetheless, right now even if equal in power, he can't win to goku no matter what, it's that obvious..

Take away Goku in DBZ and vegeta has little to no motivation for anything. Take away goku in super and Vegeta still has just as much motivation.

Vegeta's entire motivation was to get stronger even before he met goku, power is his motivation, not goku..
Goku was a kick to his pride, the physical manifestation of his lack of power

[kinisking]

If you really can't imagine Vegeta bowing to anyone even though he was a slave to Freeza then that's on you.

Vegeta loathed freeza for that and only resorted in bowing when it's absolutely must..
He is pretty much beerus's waterboy right now and he has no qualms with it except saying i will surpass him just once in entire series..
That's what bugs me, he dosen't visibly care about being ridiculed that bad

And let's be honest, a Goku Vs Vegeta back then would have been obviously Goku. Vegeta kept standing back up but kid boo wasn't struggling and Vegeta looked like he was about to die again. Contrast that to gokus appearance.

Yes, sure goku wins if they are both bloodlusted, but if not super Saiyan 3 was pretty useless in battle, and when Vegeta can take more than enough hits form kid buu he can do the same form super Saiyan 3 goku and still keep fighting, vegeta had a very small chance to win back then but had one nonetheless, right now even if equal in power, he can't win to goku no matter what, it's that obvious..

Take away Goku in DBZ and vegeta has little to no motivation for anything. Take away goku in super and Vegeta still has just as much motivation.

Vegeta's entire motivation was to get stronger even before he met goku, power is his motivation, not goku..
Goku was a kick to his pride, the physical manifestation of his lack of power

Well obviously he cares. Do you need him having one of those angry monologues every time?

Vegeta needed a bullshit power up just to resch gokus ss2 level back then. At least now he's able to hang around Goku without selling his soul to the devil. Ss3 was useless in long term battles. Kid boo forced Goku to fight for a long time because of his regenerative powers. Vegeta would not be able to last half as long as kid boo and would go down pretty quickly. Need proof? Goku said he would have won against fat boo while Vegeta got torn up. They'res nothing hitting that Vegeta would lose at equal power considering they trained together for 3 years. I doubt it was just Goku beating Vegeta up the entire time.

Vegetas motivation was directly connected to Goku though. When Goku dies in the cell saga vegeta bitches and says he'll never fight again. Do you think Super Vegeta would do the same?

[Ki Breaker]

If you really can't imagine Vegeta bowing to anyone even though he was a slave to Freeza then that's on you.

Vegeta loathed freeza for that and only resorted in bowing when it's absolutely must..
He is pretty much beerus's waterboy right now and he has no qualms with it except saying i will surpass him just once in entire series..
That's what bugs me, he dosen't visibly care about being ridiculed that bad

And let's be honest, a Goku Vs Vegeta back then would have been obviously Goku. Vegeta kept standing back up but kid boo wasn't struggling and Vegeta looked like he was about to die again. Contrast that to gokus appearance.

Yes, sure goku wins if they are both bloodlusted, but if not super Saiyan 3 was pretty useless in battle, and when Vegeta can take more than enough hits form kid buu he can do the same form super Saiyan 3 goku and still keep fighting, vegeta had a very small chance to win back then but had one nonetheless, right now even if equal in power, he can't win to goku no matter what, it's that obvious..

Take away Goku in DBZ and vegeta has little to no motivation for anything. Take away goku in super and Vegeta still has just as much motivation.

Vegeta's entire motivation was to get stronger even before he met goku, power is his motivation, not goku..
Goku was a kick to his pride, the physical manifestation of his lack of power

Well obviously he cares. Do you need him having one of those angry monologues every time?

Vegeta needed a bullshit power up just to resch gokus ss2 level back then. At least now he's able to hang around Goku without selling his soul to the devil. Ss3 was useless in long term battles. Kid boo forced Goku to fight for a long time because of his regenerative powers. Vegeta would not be able to last half as long as kid boo and would go down pretty quickly. Need proof? Goku said he would have won against fat boo while Vegeta got torn up. They'res nothing hitting that Vegeta would lose at equal power considering they trained together for 3 years. I doubt it was just Goku beating Vegeta up the entire time.

Vegetas motivation was directly connected to Goku though. When Goku dies in the cell saga vegeta bitches and says he'll never fight again. Do you think Super Vegeta would do the same?

I don't need his angry monologues Everytime but some resistance would be nice..
Maybe I find him boring because I don't care about vegeta as a character, the only thing which was entertaining about him were his small character quirks, which they got rid of in super, I can't quite put my finger on it..
I find super anime Vegeta really boring but manga Vegeta is still entertainment, again can't quite explain why

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta allowing Cell to absorb #18 still makes zero sense

Didn't Vegeta allow Zarbon to transform? How is that any different?

Read the rest of my post.

[ABED]

Vegetas motivation was directly connected to Goku though. When Goku dies in the cell saga vegeta bitches and says he'll never fight again. Do you think Super Vegeta would do the same?

It's a subsequent motive as a result of what actually is the root of his character - the lust for power. Almost losing to Goku was a blow to his fragile sense of self. Goku was a low class warrior and Vegeta was an elite. He shouldn't have gotten as far as he did. To that point he was still going after power, but over time he began to change. Blowing up after Cell killed Trunks and losing his will to fight after his greatest enemy died were signs of that change.

Vegeta loathed freeza for that and only resorted in bowing when it's absolutely must.

He changed. Admitting to himself that Goku was better was the end of his arc.