Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

And? Hit getting stronger and having a technique better than Time skip doesn't imply any multifold gains on Goku's part. Nothing implying that Hit made multifold gains either. He was never on par with Super Saiyan Blue in raw power.

Hit's strength is not purely power. If Goku matched an even stronger Hit without kaioken, he is at least two times as strong as in the tournament. I think everyone can tell Hit wasn't using his full strength in the tournament. That's why Goku asked to revoke the no-killings rule.

Not necessarily, the Kaioken isn't exactly stable and Goku didn't have as much practice reading Hit's moves back then, of course this is somewhat negated by Hit being able to use true power along with his assassination techniques.

The relevant fact is that kaioken multiplies Goku's power and other attributes by two or more. Goku needed it to keep up with Hit's tokitobashi. Now, Goku is dealing with something stated as greater than tokitobashi and without kaioken. It's simple deduction. It's not that surprising considering how many times Goku improved since the tournament. For example: Commeson Arc, Beginning of Zamasu Arc, Middle of Zamasu Arc, End of Zamasu Arc, Assassin Hit Arc. I can count 5 times. This is not considering that Hit's tokitobashi allowed him to avoid Goku's strongest attack from back then and now Goku managed to figure out all his techniques and strike him.

[GodVegetto91]

Wow they sure weren't kidding. Goku really HAS improved over the last year! He has improved so much to the point where he no longer even needs to use Kaioken at all and still fairs better against Hit then he did with the KKx10 back in the tournament.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 0533999616

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The bold makes zero sense and no such thing is hinted anywhere. That isn't how "gains" work. Once again, mental gymnastics. Vegeta wanted to see if Trunks could get a hit on him while he was at full power. Vegeta went all out until Trunks was on the ground, reverted back to base. He didn't blitz him.

Power level wise Hit is SSJG level as shown. Hit kept up with SSB with his Time skip and stored time power, not purely due to his power level.

Stopping Kaioken Goku then getting immediately thrashed afterwards doesn't fall into the category of "working against Goku". He couldn't get a meaningful opportunity from it. Hit didn't limit himself. He simply didn't use a useless move.
No reason for him to use moves that Goku knows how to counter instead of ones that he doesn't. It's not like Kaioken is Goku's only way of countering Time skip either.
He can just predict where Hit would be after his Time skip like he did before.

Mate, a SSJ3 Goku one-shotted the same SSJ2 Trunks, Is that SSJB Vegeta now weaker than that SSJ3 Goku?

The DBS manga isn't evidence for the anime.

Obviously when you only use the first 30 seconds of the fight to compare the rest of the fight it doesn't seem like but the mere fact that Goku was still getting troubled shows you Hit's power.
How is it useless? It takes much longer for Goku to go SSJBKKx10 than it takes for Hit to use Tokitobashi even then the Tokitobashi has worked on Tournament SSJBKKx10 Goku.
I already mentioned that after the Tokitobashi improved, Goku was forced to use kaioken and at that point, Goku couldn't counter it like he previously did even then Tokitobashi was further improved to capture SSJBKKx10 Goku.

SSJ3 Goku can't one shot Trunks. The point of their spar was to see how strong Goku was compared to Black. After they got their answer, they stopped. Trunks even said that he was completely fine afterwards. Black couldn't one shot Trunks and he is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Of course you can use the manga and the anime together depending on the context. Power wise, Goku and Vegeta aren't any different. Power level wise none of the U6 fighters were any different.

Time skip managed to freeze Goku. It wasn't going to "work" in the way that's implied by Goku's statement which is defeating him, not simply freezing him.

[perucho1990]

Goku still can't freely use the Kaioken yet. Hit knows that, yet didn't even try to use the Time Skip. It isn't like he couldn't trigger it since Goku wasn't using the Kaioken if that was supposedly holding him back.

Hit can activate the Time Skip before Goku uses the Kaioken, just like he probably could've killed Goku when he took his back the episode before. Where are you getting the idea that he can't?

It would have disabled Goku and Hit could have easily crushed his skull in while he's down.

Where the conclusion that he can't?

Goku can still use Kaioken(X2 like when he used vs Merged Zamasu and he had both his arms and left leg broken iirc), he cant use KKX10 anymore because it could kill him.

Hit didnt expect Goku to break the dimension he created, he left himself wide open while preventing his dimension from being destroyed).

[Helios518]

SSJ3 Goku can't one shot Trunks. The point of their spar was to see how strong Goku was compared to Black. After they got their answer, they stopped. Trunks even said that he was completely fine afterwards. Black couldn't one shot Trunks and he is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Of course you can use the manga and the anime together depending on the context. Power wise, Goku and Vegeta aren't any different. Power level wise none of the U6 fighters were any different.

Time skip managed to freeze Goku. It wasn't going to "work" in the way that's implied by Goku's statement which is defeating him, not simply freezing him.

Idk if you saw the same fight as everybody else but he clearly one shotted SSJ2 Trunks from the fight.

They're still two different continuities and should be treated as such because they follow their own rules not what the others established.

If Hit could've freezed Goku then he would've but he clearly didn't despite being unrestrained. A frozen Goku + Hit's technique = Goku's death.

[HeroR]

Goku still can't freely use the Kaioken yet. Hit knows that, yet didn't even try to use the Time Skip. It isn't like he couldn't trigger it since Goku wasn't using the Kaioken if that was supposedly holding him back.

Hit can activate the Time Skip before Goku uses the Kaioken, just like he probably could've killed Goku when he took his back the episode before. Where are you getting the idea that he can't?

It would have disabled Goku and Hit could have easily crushed his skull in while he's down.

Where the conclusion that he can't?

Goku can still use Kaioken(X2 like when he used vs Merged Zamasu and he had both his arms and left leg broken iirc), he cant use KKX10 anymore because it could kill him.

Hit didnt expect Goku to break the dimension he created, he left himself wide open while preventing his dimension from being destroyed).

Goku didn't used the Kaioken until most of him limbs were disable. If he could used it freely, Goku wouldn't have waited until he was nearly crippled. And Goku specifically said just activating the Kaioken could kill him. Not just using x10.

That's Hit's fault, just like it was Goku's fault for dying last week because he didn't expect Hit's attack. This works both ways.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

SSJ3 Goku can't one shot Trunks. The point of their spar was to see how strong Goku was compared to Black. After they got their answer, they stopped. Trunks even said that he was completely fine afterwards. Black couldn't one shot Trunks and he is stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Of course you can use the manga and the anime together depending on the context. Power wise, Goku and Vegeta aren't any different. Power level wise none of the U6 fighters were any different.

Time skip managed to freeze Goku. It wasn't going to "work" in the way that's implied by Goku's statement which is defeating him, not simply freezing him.

Idk if you saw the same fight as everybody else but he clearly one shotted SSJ2 Trunks from the fight.

They're still two different continuities and should be treated as such because they follow their own rules not what the others established.

If Hit could've freezed Goku then he would've but he clearly didn't despite being unrestrained. A frozen Goku + Hit's technique = Goku's death.

If he one shotted Trunks, why did Trunks get back up with no problem and say he was fine?
If SSJ3 Goku can one shot Trunks, why can't Black?
Didn't answer either of these questions. They stopped fighting after 1 scuffle since the only point of the spar was to see how strong Goku was compared to Black.

You're not making any sense. The power levels of Goku and Vegeta are the same. The power levels of the U6 fighters are the same, so comparison can be made. It being a different media is irrelevant in that case.

Frozen Goku+Hit's technique=Alive Goku
Goku would still be able to shock his heart back with an energy blast. Time skip would do nothing to stop that.

[Helios518]

If he one shotted Trunks, why did Trunks get back up with no problem and say he was fine?
If SSJ3 Goku can one shot Trunks, why can't Black?
Didn't answer either of these questions. They stopped fighting after 1 scuffle since the only point of the spar was to see how strong Goku was compared to Black.

You're not making any sense. The power levels of Goku and Vegeta are the same. The power levels of the U6 fighters are the same, so comparison can be made. It being a different media is irrelevant in that case.

Frozen Goku+Hit's technique=Alive Goku
Goku would still be able to shock his heart back with an energy blast. Time skip would do nothing to stop that.

Because Goku didn't want to kill,injure, or knock out Trunks for no reason (common sense)? If SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Trunks are close in power then a SSJ3 Goku would logically stomp SSJ2 Trunks especially because there has been smaller power gaps that warranted curb stomps/one shots.

You must have not been in this thread long enough because it's already argued and concluded that the anime has many different power levels. For instance (Not using the two-base theory), Base Goku could stomp SSJ3 Gotenks and on top of that his SSJ forms are much stronger than pretty much anything in Boo Saga, so in extension, everybody (minus Hit) range from around SSJ3 Gotenks tier to around 50x SSJ3 Gotenks. While the manga pretty much stays with the fact that Current Goku is much closer to his Boo Saga counterpart so Team U6 (minus Hit) range from around 4th form Freeza to around Boo Saga SSJ Goku. There's also the other theories that Anime Goku is SSJG tier in his base or SSJ form. Want to know the funny thing about the main DBS anime power level theories? They're all equally as correct as the other theories.


That's not a reason for Hit to not use Tokitobashi. For anything, it's a reason for Hit not to use his killing technique cause that's what he used to kill Goku. It also doesn't help that little technique Goku used isn't reliable because it relies on Goku's body not moving at least a foot away from his death spot and Goku having a ki blast ready to shot at the same exact position in the sky.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

If he one shotted Trunks, why did Trunks get back up with no problem and say he was fine?
If SSJ3 Goku can one shot Trunks, why can't Black?
Didn't answer either of these questions. They stopped fighting after 1 scuffle since the only point of the spar was to see how strong Goku was compared to Black.

You're not making any sense. The power levels of Goku and Vegeta are the same. The power levels of the U6 fighters are the same, so comparison can be made. It being a different media is irrelevant in that case.

Frozen Goku+Hit's technique=Alive Goku
Goku would still be able to shock his heart back with an energy blast. Time skip would do nothing to stop that.

Because Goku didn't want to kill,injure, or knock out Trunks for no reason (common sense)? If SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Trunks are close in power then a SSJ3 Goku would logically stomp SSJ2 Trunks especially because there has been smaller power gaps that warranted curb stomps/one shots.

You must have not been in this thread long enough because it's already argued and concluded that the anime has many different power levels. For instance (Not using the two-base theory), Base Goku could stomp SSJ3 Gotenks and on top of that his SSJ forms are much stronger than pretty much anything in Boo Saga, so in extension, everybody (minus Hit) range from around SSJ3 Gotenks tier to around 50x SSJ3 Gotenks. While the manga pretty much stays with the fact that Current Goku is much closer to his Boo Saga counterpart so Team U6 (minus Hit) range from around 4th form Freeza to around Boo Saga SSJ Goku. There's also the other theories that Anime Goku is SSJG tier in his base or SSJ form. Want to know the funny thing about the main DBS anime power level theories? They're all equally as correct as the other theories.


That's not a reason for Hit to not use Tokitobashi. For anything, it's a reason for Hit not to use his killing technique cause that's what he used to kill Goku. It also doesn't help that little technique Goku used isn't reliable because it relies on Goku's body not moving at least a foot away from his death spot and Goku having a ki blast ready to shot at the same exact position in the sky.

Trunks isn't equal to SSJ2 Goku. SSJ3 Goku wasn't holding back when he hit Trunks. No reason to when SSJ2 Trunks is close to SSJ3 Goku in power. And you're still ignoring the fact that Trunks wanted to see how strong Goku was compared to Black. Goku holding back makes no sense, yet Trunk is perfectly fine afterwards. Was Black also trying not to kill Trunks?

Who arbitrarily decided the Base Goku in the manga is weaker than the one in the anime? Nobody with any merit I'm sure. Not interested in any crackpot theories since anyone saying that the powerscaling is any different is simply coping.

Not seeing how what you're saying invalidates the countermeasure. Goku simply won't move from the spot, or he can just manually shove the ki blast into his own chest.

[Helios518]

Trunks isn't equal to SSJ2 Goku. SSJ3 Goku wasn't holding back when he hit Trunks. No reason to when SSJ2 Trunks is close to SSJ3 Goku in power. And you're still ignoring the fact that Trunks wanted to see how strong Goku was compared to Black. Goku holding back makes no sense, yet Trunk is perfectly fine afterwards. Was Black also trying not to kill Trunks?

Who arbitrarily decided the Base Goku in the manga is weaker than the one in the anime? Nobody with any merit I'm sure. Not interested in any crackpot theories since anyone saying that the powerscaling is any different is simply coping.

Not seeing how what you're saying invalidates the countermeasure. Goku simply won't move from the spot, or he can just manually shove the ki blast into his own chest.

Goku could've still hold back his punches, this was a point made in the Raditz fight. It's either SSJ2 Trunks is close to SSJ3 Goku and should've stomped Goku or forced him to SSJB, or SSJ2 Trunks is close to SSJ2 Goku in which SSJ3 Goku stomps Trunks (aka what happened).

Really? They aren't crackpot theories, they're as ridiculous/sane/correct as the other with the information presented with us. Just because you have a different opinion doesn't make all other ones wrong and for anything you're in the minority in thinking that DBS anime PLs coalign with the manga, so for anything you're the oddball out.

Because it's not a countermeasure to Tokitobashi, it's a countermeasure if Goku dies like that aka mainly by Hit's killing technique. For anything, Hit should've stopped using his killing technique but he still continued. No, he may not move from the spot but he's banking on the idea that he won't be moved or some outside influence prevents him from launching/hitting the ki blast.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Trunks isn't equal to SSJ2 Goku. SSJ3 Goku wasn't holding back when he hit Trunks. No reason to when SSJ2 Trunks is close to SSJ3 Goku in power. And you're still ignoring the fact that Trunks wanted to see how strong Goku was compared to Black. Goku holding back makes no sense, yet Trunk is perfectly fine afterwards. Was Black also trying not to kill Trunks?

Who arbitrarily decided the Base Goku in the manga is weaker than the one in the anime? Nobody with any merit I'm sure. Not interested in any crackpot theories since anyone saying that the powerscaling is any different is simply coping.

Not seeing how what you're saying invalidates the countermeasure. Goku simply won't move from the spot, or he can just manually shove the ki blast into his own chest.

Goku could've still hold back his punches, this was a point made in the Raditz fight. It's either SSJ2 Trunks is close to SSJ3 Goku and should've stomped Goku or forced him to SSJB, or SSJ2 Trunks is close to SSJ2 Goku in which SSJ3 Goku stomps Trunks (aka what happened).

Really? They aren't crackpot theories, they're as ridiculous/sane/correct as the other with the information presented with us. Just because you have a different opinion doesn't make all other ones wrong and for anything you're in the minority in thinking that DBS anime PLs coalign with the manga, so for anything you're the oddball out.

Because it's not a countermeasure to Tokitobashi, it's a countermeasure if Goku dies like that aka mainly by Hit's killing technique. For anything, Hit should've stopped using his killing technique but he still continued. No, he may not move from the spot but he's banking on the idea that he won't be moved or some outside influence prevents him from launching/hitting the ki blast.

The bold makes no sense. Also there isn't anything implying that Goku held back his punches in SSJ3. As stated SSJ2 Trunks is close in power to SSJ3 Goku.

What I'm bringing up isn't even an opinion. There is nothing in the manga that would lead to such a conclusion since it's literally the same as the anime except in the way it executes certain events of the plot. Not unless you reach an insane amount, grasping at straws. At that point it just becomes comical delusion. Appealing to the majority to try to validate a stance is useless. The majority used to think the Earth was flat despite there being available evidence that proved otherwise.

As I said, Goku could just force the blast into his chest to start his heart again, or he can fire multiple blasts.

[Helios518]

The bold makes no sense. Also there isn't anything implying that Goku held back his punches in SSJ3. As stated SSJ2 Trunks is close in power to SSJ3 Goku.

What I'm bringing up isn't even an opinion. There is nothing in the manga that would lead to such a conclusion since it's literally the same as the anime except in the way it executes certain events of the plot. Not unless you reach an insane amount, grasping at straws. At that point it just becomes comical delusion. Appealing to the majority to try to validate a stance is useless. The majority used to think the Earth was flat despite there being available evidence that proved otherwise.

As I said, Goku could just force the blast into his chest to start his heart again, or he can fire multiple blasts.

Considering SSJ3 Goku curbstomped SSJ2 Trunks, I beg to differ.

It's an opinion or a theory as much as the others. Anime Goku doesn't have SSJG and is implied to have the strength of one in base or SSJ while Manga Goku has SSJG as a form and is implied to use be SSJG tier as a SSJG (duh). Also unlike back then where people believe the Earth was flat (they lack the technology to know better), we have all the episodes, translators, and evidence in front of us to know better.

Even then that's not an excuse to not use Tokitobashi, it's for anything an excuse to not use his killing technique.

[Zamasu55]

This episode did confirm Hit and Goku are stronger than themselves from the tournament arc

Goku says Hit is way stronger than he was at the universal tournament.

Goku's still weaker than SsjR Black, and so's Hit.

[Zamasu55]

^ but has he surpassed Beerus now?

Nice joke.

[VegetaSSJBlue]

^ but has he surpassed Beerus now?

Nice joke.

Stop multi-posting!!!!!!

[Zamasu55]

^ but has he surpassed Beerus now?

Nice joke.

Stop multi-posting!!!!!!

Okay...

[Bullza]

So are we expected to believe that current SSJB Goku > U6 SSJB Goku Kaioken x10?

I don't think it's impossible bit it's a significant jump especially as most of it would have had to have come from his rage boost.

I wouldn't say Hit being much stronger necessarily makes this true. He's more formidable than his power level afterall.

[perucho1990]

Sorry if I repeat saying this but Gokus growth is very logical, he was battling with people far stronger than tournament Hit in Black Goku several times and Merged Zamasu.

I kinda dont understand why there are some people who think Hit is weak because he went down after full power Kamehameha when Merged Zamasu(someone stronger than Hit) got also overwhelmed and got his face destroyed in the process.

[Abra kadabra]

It funny how that khh damaged merged zamasu but goku got his ass whooped the previous episode toei can't help but make goku look strong

[HeroR]

Sorry if I repeat saying this but Gokus growth is very logical, he was battling with people far stronger than tournament Hit in Black Goku several times and Merged Zamasu.

I kinda dont understand why there are some people who think Hit is weak because he went down after full power Kamehameha when Merged Zamasu(someone stronger than Hit) got also overwhelmed and got his face destroyed in the process.

Goku was aiming to kill Merged Zamasu. Goku was just trying to beat Hit. So Goku's Kamehameha was no where near the power he used to melt Merged Zamasu's face. The Kamehameha used on Merged Zamasu was so powerful that it broke Goku's arms.

It funny how that khh damaged merged zamasu but goku got his ass whooped the previous episode toei can't help but make goku look strong

Read the above. And Goku got caught flatfooted by Hit's attack since he believed Hit couldn't hit him from that distance.