"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

I'm sure Toyotaro is just trying to build to Super Saiyan Blue, which is why he had him go Super Saiyan instead.

Vegeta going SSB straight away would have made way more sense. He's built up SSB in the manga enough. having ssj2 black getting curbstomped by ssj2 Vegeta is asinine since base Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks and SSJ3 Goku

That is how I feel about it. If Vegeta jumped to his god form right away like in the anime and stomped Black, then Black getting his butt kicked would make sense and not show Black as being weak since he lack his ultimate form. There was no reason for Vegeta to fight Black as a Super Saiyan 2 and Black to be overwhelmed by it. It's also out of character for him since starting slow is Goku's bad habit.

[TKA]

I'm sure Toyotaro is just trying to build to Super Saiyan Blue, which is why he had him go Super Saiyan instead.

Vegeta going SSB straight away would have made way more sense. He's built up SSB in the manga enough. having ssj2 black getting curbstomped by ssj2 Vegeta is asinine since base Black is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks and SSJ3 Goku

The manga's rules are different from the anime's. Vegeta going Blue straightaway for a fight that he expects to be protracted would be tactically stupid, since he knows from the tournament that even short usages of Blue could leave him drained. He felt out Black's abilities with Super Saiyan 2, and now that he knows the limits of Black's power, he can comfortably go to Super Saiyan Blue and win quickly.

[TheUltimateNinja]

I'd like to formally apologize to many in this thread. I'd previously said that there was distinct bias for the anime that lead people to forgive things in the manga that they wouldn't forgive in the anime. After people reacting to the last two chapters, I've changed my mindset. I admit when I'm wrong, and I think this is one of those situations.

You were half-right, even now there are still people defending this.

Anyway, is the 6-10-15 scale still relevant in the manga? And if so, wouldn't Vegetto end up stronger than Whis?

[TKA]

Anyway, is the 6-10-15 scale still relevant in the manga? And if so, wouldn't Vegetto end up stronger than Whis?

Very relevant, and as long as Toyotarou avoids characters saying shit like "Now he's 2x stronger!" in order to hype up something, it'll always be relevant.

[LightBing]

Anyway, is the 6-10-15 scale still relevant in the manga? And if so, wouldn't Vegetto end up stronger than Whis?

Very relevant, and as long as Toyotarou avoids characters saying shit like "Now he's 2x stronger!" in order to hype up something, it'll always be relevant.

It's has not been disproved but the lack of the percentage talk in the BoG arc kinda confirms that Toyotarõ isn't basing his power scale on that. I think people should really abandon that scale, seems pretty clear Mr.Toriyama has changed his mind regarding that.
It's not a coincidence both the anime and the manga removed the most straightforward power comparison lines of the movies.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Anyway, is the 6-10-15 scale still relevant in the manga? And if so, wouldn't Vegetto end up stronger than Whis?

Very relevant, and as long as Toyotarou avoids characters saying shit like "Now he's 2x stronger!" in order to hype up something, it'll always be relevant.

This would mean that despite unlocking a new form (SSBlue) and having over 4 years' worth of training since the BoG arc, three of which were in the time chamber with his greatest rival, Goku's power hasn't even increased 50%.

For SSBlue to be worth a damn and also to make sense of it being able to break Hit's strongest timeskip while SSGod couldn't, it's got to be at least a 25% boost. This would place Goku at 7.5 without any training, and since we know Goku still isn't close to Beerus he's got to be below a 9, and since 9 is 20% greater than 7.5, Goku's improvement from training is less than 20% which is absolutely pathetic for 4 year's worth of training.

[Neon Z]

I'd like to formally apologize to many in this thread. I'd previously said that there was distinct bias for the anime that lead people to forgive things in the manga that they wouldn't forgive in the anime. After people reacting to the last two chapters, I've changed my mindset. I admit when I'm wrong, and I think this is one of those situations.

You were half-right, even now there are still people defending this.

Anyway, is the 6-10-15 scale still relevant in the manga? And if so, wouldn't Vegetto end up stronger than Whis?

Well, the main matter are Trunks' suspicions in this chapter, they could still lead to something next chapter that would explain this seemingly contradiction regarding Black's power. Of course, if there's nothing then it's a pretty big mess up in power scales.

[TKA]

This would mean that despite unlocking a new form (SSBlue) and having over 4 years' worth of training since the BoG arc, three of which were in the time chamber with his greatest rival, Goku's power hasn't even increased 50%.

Having over 40 years of training didn't make base Goku stronger than Frieza. Stop thinking about the series in terms of hard numbers and percentages, because none of the people making it have even used numbers since the Frieza saga (discounting Babidi's weird scale). Actually, keep doing it. Enjoy the series however you want to, but don't cry foul when the thing you emphasize (which the story de-emphasizes) doesn't get focused on.

The distinction in power between Beerus and everyone else is intentionally vague and will remain vague.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This would mean that despite unlocking a new form (SSBlue) and having over 4 years' worth of training since the BoG arc, three of which were in the time chamber with his greatest rival, Goku's power hasn't even increased 50%.

Having over 40 years of training didn't make base Goku stronger than Frieza. Stop thinking about the series in terms of hard numbers and percentages, because none of the people making it have even used numbers since the Frieza saga (discounting Babidi's weird scale). Actually, keep doing it. Enjoy the series however you want to, but don't cry foul when the thing you emphasize (which the story de-emphasizes) doesn't get focused on.

The distinction in power between Beerus and everyone else is intentionally vague and will remain vague.

But there hasn't ever been a period in the series where Goku's rate of improvement has been this slow except for the 5 year timeskip between DB and Z, but Goku barely trained in that time.

Goku was barely 40 years old when BoG happened, for your statement to be true he would have to have been training since he was born. The real number is likely 20 years since he didn't do any serious training until he met Roshi and there's also large gaps in the series where he didn't do much serious training like in the 5 year timeskip or on Yardrat.

My problem is if Goku and Vegeta aren't going to improve at all, why send them to the time chamber for 3 years? Their strength didn't even change. In the anime at least they did indeed get a power boost and Goku learned the Kaioken, but nothing changed in the manga.

The only explanation is that the 6-10-15 scale has been discarded and they've actually been improving.

[TheMikado]

Anyway, is the 6-10-15 scale still relevant in the manga? And if so, wouldn't Vegetto end up stronger than Whis?

Very relevant, and as long as Toyotarou avoids characters saying shit like "Now he's 2x stronger!" in order to hype up something, it'll always be relevant.

This would mean that despite unlocking a new form (SSBlue) and having over 4 years' worth of training since the BoG arc, three of which were in the time chamber with his greatest rival, Goku's power hasn't even increased 50%.

For SSBlue to be worth a damn and also to make sense of it being able to break Hit's strongest timeskip while SSGod couldn't, it's got to be at least a 25% boost. This would place Goku at 7.5 without any training, and since we know Goku still isn't close to Beerus he's got to be below a 9, and since 9 is 20% greater than 7.5, Goku's improvement from training is less than 20% which is absolutely pathetic for 4 year's worth of training.

Not that I see abandoning the scale as a problem, but the incremental strength increase makes perfect sense in the context of them saying they hit their limits in the RoSaT. In the anime we have the opposite problem where they say they hit their limits after 3 years of sparring and Vegeta goes in for 6 months alone and starts dominating everything with a massive power increase. One makes good fights the other makes consistent storylines. Unfortunately it doesn't look like we can have both in Super.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Very relevant, and as long as Toyotarou avoids characters saying shit like "Now he's 2x stronger!" in order to hype up something, it'll always be relevant.

This would mean that despite unlocking a new form (SSBlue) and having over 4 years' worth of training since the BoG arc, three of which were in the time chamber with his greatest rival, Goku's power hasn't even increased 50%.

For SSBlue to be worth a damn and also to make sense of it being able to break Hit's strongest timeskip while SSGod couldn't, it's got to be at least a 25% boost. This would place Goku at 7.5 without any training, and since we know Goku still isn't close to Beerus he's got to be below a 9, and since 9 is 20% greater than 7.5, Goku's improvement from training is less than 20% which is absolutely pathetic for 4 year's worth of training.

Not that I see abandoning the scale as a problem, but the incremental strength increase makes perfect sense in the context of them saying they hit their limits in the RoSaT. In the anime we have the opposite problem where they say they hit their limits after 3 years of sparring and Vegeta goes in for 6 months alone and starts dominating everything with a massive power increase. One makes good fights the other makes consistent storylines. Unfortunately it doesn't look like we can have both in Super.

The trip to the RoSAT itself was mostly pointless. The only difference in the anime is that they became somewhat stronger and Goku learned the Kaioken, they could have had that happen through regular training alone. In the manga their power didn't even increase and they didn't learn any new techniques so it's literally completely pointless and a waste of time.

[OLKv3]

The Black thing doesn't make sense, but Trunks is also noticing that it doesn't make sense. However, the most damning part of the chapter is Vegeta owning Black in SSJ2 and then saying "no wonder you're able to beat Trunks at this level of power", which implies SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks. Which would be fine if not for the whole SSJ2 Trunks being almost equal to SSJ3 Goku

It just doesn't make sense. Oh well. Super doesn't care about consistent power tiers.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The Black thing doesn't make sense, but Trunks is also noticing that it doesn't make sense. However, the most damning part of the chapter is Vegeta owning Black in SSJ2 and then saying "no wonder you're able to beat Trunks at this level of power", which implies SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks. Which would be fine if not for the whole SSJ2 Trunks being almost equal to SSJ3 Goku

It just doesn't make sense. Oh well. Super doesn't care about consistent power tiers.

Think about it, Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis, the most powerful being of Universe 7. It still makes sense that Vegeta is greater than Trunks, even with a mastered SS2. The only problem is the Goku x Trunks fight, which is kind of a boo-boo, but can be explained away by taking into account that Goku was only sparring.

[HeroR]

The Black thing doesn't make sense, but Trunks is also noticing that it doesn't make sense. However, the most damning part of the chapter is Vegeta owning Black in SSJ2 and then saying "no wonder you're able to beat Trunks at this level of power", which implies SSJ2 Vegeta is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks. Which would be fine if not for the whole SSJ2 Trunks being almost equal to SSJ3 Goku

It just doesn't make sense. Oh well. Super doesn't care about consistent power tiers.

Think about it, Goku and Vegeta trained with Whis, the most powerful being of Universe 7. It still makes sense that Vegeta is greater than Trunks, even with a mastered SS2. The only problem is the Goku x Trunks fight, which is kind of a boo-boo, but can be explained away by taking into account that Goku was only sparring.

But wasn't it a statement that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even to Super Saiyan 3 Goku? I don't remember who said it, but I think it was maybe Vegeta, who should know Goku's upper limits and would know if Goku was holding anything back.

[Doctor.]

Vegeta said SS2 Trunks was as strong as SS3 Goku and Whis said that SS2 Trunks was slightly stronger than SS2 Goku prior to Trunks' power-up.

[LightBing]

Assuming that Toyotarõ didn't blatantly messed up, which is the least likely scenario taking into account his concern for minimal strength logic. This can easily be explained as Vegeta keeping his Mutated SSJ2 transformation, which we know is far superior to SSJ3 Goku and therefore fits in the powerscale.
Seems to me like the same situation as SSJG, everyone thought it was gone and Toyotarõ brought it back.

Even if that's the cause, I have to say Toyotarõ messed up for not at the very least implying it. Since this is the first time Vegeta used it since the BoG arc. Have Goku comment on it or something.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Someone tell me...did Goku absorb the strength of Super Saiyan God during the Beerus battle in the manga or is that outright CONFIRMED to not be the case?

It's just baffling why there would willingly be such a power discrepancy in Goku between the anime and manga, especially during his fight with Trunks.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Someone tell me...did Goku absorb the strength of Super Saiyan God during the Beerus battle in the manga or is that outright CONFIRMED to not be the case?

It's just baffling why there would willingly be such a power discrepancy in Goku between the anime and manga, especially during his fight with Trunks.

I'm pretty sure he didn't. Since he has the form itself, there's no need. Nothing confirmed, though.

[Nejishiki]

Someone tell me...did Goku absorb the strength of Super Saiyan God during the Beerus battle in the manga or is that outright CONFIRMED to not be the case?

Goku absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God is never mentioned in the manga continuity.

[HeroR]

Vegeta said SS2 Trunks was as strong as SS3 Goku and Whis said that SS2 Trunks was slightly stronger than SS2 Goku prior to Trunks' power-up.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Assuming that Toyotarõ didn't blatantly messed up, which is the least likely scenario taking into account his concern for minimal strength logic. This can easily be explained as Vegeta keeping his Mutated SSJ2 transformation, which we know is far superior to SSJ3 Goku and therefore fits in the powerscale.
Seems to me like the same situation as SSJG, everyone thought it was gone and Toyotarõ brought it back.

Even if that's the cause, I have to say Toyotarõ messed up for not at the very least implying it. Since this is the first time Vegeta used it since the BoG arc. Have Goku comment on it or something.

It should be pointed out that only the Super anime called Vegeta's rage against Beerus a mutation and it was done by the narrator. In the movie, Vegeta just got a giant and drastic rage boost. I don't know what the Super manga said about it or how it was presented.