When the hell did Tapion go to?

[Olivier Hague]

How does that "split off" timeline #2?

Because he's leaving timeline #3 and going further into the past than when timeline #4 was split off, so it HAS to create another timeline. Since #1 is the end result of all time travel, that leaves #2, where "our" Mirai comes from.

Wh... Whuh? ^^;
How could that create timeline #2, exactly? When Cell goes back in the past, he's creating a new timeline where he exists underground in embryo form, right? Where did that Cell go, in timeline #2? Logically, he should wake up and absorb the androids. And yet, the androids are still there years later, they kill Gohan, etc.
No, Cell going into the past creates timeline #1.

Everything else does work. Notice that after Mirai goes to the past and splits off Timeline #1

Thing is, Trunks' first trip shouldn't create timeline #1 (i.e. the main one who see in the series). It should create a timeline where Trunks appears, but Cell only exists in the laboratory.

It's possible that Mirai Bulma, only wanting to split off one timeline, installed a "dimensional navigator" that let him keep returning to the same alternate timeline each time.

Apparently, that's what the Time Machine does, indeed.

Event 1) Trunks goes back in time and gives Goku the cure, splicing the timeline into two: his own (timeline A) and one where Goku doesn't die (timeline B). Trunks then returns to his time and recharges the machine.

Event 2) He goes back in time to help fight the androids, but this causes a split in timeline B since he can't change it: timeline C is created, in which he is present to help, but timeline B also exists in which he only went back to give Goku the cure.

Event 3) Trunks (TL C) gets the remote, they destroy the androids, and he returns to timeline A. He then gets killed by Cell, who goes back to timeline C, splitting it in half. There now exists a timeline D, which is the manga and anime, as well as a Timeline C where Cell makes no appearence.

Yes, that's also how I would explain the whole thing, myself.
(the one detail left would be whether or not Trunks going back in his future also creates new timelines... not that it really matters, but it's still an intriguing question, as well as a tragic one as far as Bulma's concerned... I guess it's the only way you could explain him killing Cell instead of getting killed (short of "he's somehow rewriting over his own timeline"))

But I think there's still a problem with that explanation...

Since Cell goes further back in the past than Trunks, you could say he's not splitting timeline C into a new timeline D. He's actually splitting timeline A into a new timeline D. But that's not the core of the problem...

How would you explain future Trunks appearing at all in this new timeline D? Or, in other words, why does he "still" appear?
Does future Trunks (from timeline A) "automatically" appear in all the timelines, when he goes into the past, even the ones that have "yet" to be created/discovered (timeline D, here)? What about his own timeline, then? Obviously, he didn't appear there (or that would create all sorts of paradoxes). So how does that work? He appears in all the timelines (even the ones that haven't been created/discovered "yet") save for his own?

But what about Cell going into the past, then? If his time travel follows the same rules as above, he should appear in all the timelines, save for his own. But the Trunks that gets killed by Cell has to come from a timeline where Cell didn't appear in a Time Machine. So we have a paradox.

Event 5) Timeline E's Trunks goes back to Timeline D, splitting it in half one final time: Timeline D is the manga, in which we don't see Trunks return, and Timeline F is created, in which the events of movie 9 take place.

That last part really is pure speculation, but why not... ^_^;

I think you're just misreading the branch-bar thingies (the solid bars, not the arrows); they're meant to explain when deviations occur between the timelines, not when one creates a new one.

Well, it's hard not to misread them when the timeline that should be the original one (timeline #3) is shorter than the one that should be derived from it (timeline #2), and when they add in a timeline that makes no sense (timeline #4)... ^^;

Personally, I think the daizenshuu just labeled the timelines in order of the reader's exposure to them for simplicity's sake.

Yeah, same here. It's just that it's not exactly a wise choice, when you're to explain the whole time travel thing. ^^;

[Thanos6]

When Cell goes back in the past, he's creating a new timeline where he exists underground in embryo form, right? Where did that Cell go, in timeline #2?

One of those bitter bits of irony: killed, completely unnoticed, by the androids.

[Olivier Hague]

When Cell goes back in the past, he's creating a new timeline where he exists underground in embryo form, right? Where did that Cell go, in timeline #2?

One of those bitter bits of irony: killed, completely unnoticed, by the androids.

Well, gee, if he's not powerful enough to absorb the androids he's supposed to absorb, he's a bit of a failure. ^^;

But let's say that happens... I guess it would solve the problem I mentioned above:

Event 1) Trunks goes back in time and gives Goku the cure, splicing the timeline into two: his own (timeline A) and one where Goku doesn't die (timeline B). Trunks then returns to his time and recharges the machine.

Event 2) He goes back in time to help fight the androids, but this causes a split in timeline B since he can't change it: timeline C is created, in which he is present to help, but timeline B also exists in which he only went back to give Goku the cure.

Event 3) Trunks (TL C) gets the remote, they destroy the androids, and he returns to timeline A. He then gets killed by Cell, who goes back to

... timeline A, splitting it in half. There now exists a timeline D, where Cell exists in two different places (in Dr. Gero's hidden laboratory and next to a Time Machine), but future Trunks doesn't appear. Pretty much everything happens just like it did in timeline A, save for the fact that the "time-traveller Cell" shows up at some point and somehow gets killed by the Androids (maybe he didn't have time to grow powerful enough?).

Event 4) Years pass, and Trunks (TL D) decides to go back in time (just like Trunks (TL A) did). He gives Gokû the cure, splicing the timeline into two: his own (timeline D, same as timeline A, except there was a second Cell at some point) and one where Gokû doesn't die (timeline E, same as timeline B, except there's a second Cell). Trunks then returns to his time and recharges the machine.

Event 5) He goes back in time to help fight the androids, but this causes a split in timeline E since he can't change it: timeline F is created, in which he is present to help and the second Cell is around.

Event 6) The Cell Game takes place in timeline F and Trunks then goes back to timeline D, where he kills Cell.

Event 7) After defeating Cell, Trunks goes back to timeline F, splitting it in half one final time into a timeline G. We don't know if Trunks showed up again in the main timeline depicted in the manga. If he did, timeline G is the main timeline of the series. If he didn't, timeline F is.
(yeah, I don't care that much about the movies, sorry... ^^;)


Well, fuck. I think that works. ^^;;


The ony unexplained bit would then be... Why was the Time Machine programmed to bo back in Age 763 when Cell stole it from Trunks? Why would Trunks want to go further back in time, one year before Gokû's return from outer space?

Like I said earlier in another topic, the only explanation I'd see is that things didn't go that smoothly in timeline C. Maybe the Androids killed some of the good guys before they were stopped by the controller? Who knows what would have happened if Cell hadn't showed up? So Trunks would actually want to go further back in time to give the good guys both the cure for Gokû's virus and the controller.

"But they could use the Dragon Balls to revive their buddies!"
Not if Piccolo got killed.
And the only reason Kami-Sama agreed to merge with Piccolo was that he felt the "time traveller Cell"'s menace. So if that Cell isn't there in the first place, Piccolo can't rival the Androids.

"But they could still use the Nameccian Dragon Balls!"
Dude, stop it!
No, they couldn't, if Gokû died as well.
And who bought some time when the Androids found Gokû at Kame House? Piccolo. See above. He wouldn't stand a chance. Plus, Cell wouldn't show up to interrupt the Piccolo / Androids fight either.

So we already have two casualties, and no way to revive anybody.
(things wouldn't bode well for Vegeta either... he would want a rematch, but without some training in the Room of Spirit and Time... and who would tell him about it? Mr. Popo?)
They would have to look into other ways to defeat the Androids, so maybe they'd go and check the ruins of Dr. Gero's laboratory... find a ladder... and some blueprints (as well as some kind of spooky embryo thing).
So they stop the Androids.
Trunks goes back in timeline A, stops his androids (perhaps checks for the weird embryo thing in Dr. Gero's hidden laboratory... hmm... it's gone? (buried somewhere in larva form, by now)), decides to go further back in time with the cure and the controller to really save Gokû and the others, this time around (to pay his debt back? they did help him save his timeline, after all)... but gets killed by Cell who then takes his place in the Time Machine.

Yeah, I guess that works. Cool.

[Conan the SSJ]

Event 1) Trunks goes back in time and gives Goku the cure, splicing the timeline into two: his own (timeline A) and one where Goku doesn't die (timeline B). Trunks then returns to his time and recharges the machine.

Event 2) He goes back in time to help fight the androids, but this causes a split in timeline B since he can't change it: timeline C is created, in which he is present to help, but timeline B also exists in which he only went back to give Goku the cure.

Event 3) Trunks (TL C) gets the remote, they destroy the androids, and he returns to timeline A. He then gets killed by Cell, who goes back to

... timeline A, splitting it in half. There now exists a timeline D, where Cell exists in two different places (in Dr. Gero's hidden laboratory and next to a Time Machine), but future Trunks doesn't appear. Pretty much everything happens just like it did in timeline A, save for the fact that the "time-traveller Cell" shows up at some point and somehow gets killed by the Androids (maybe he didn't have time to grow powerful enough?).

Event 4) Trunks (TL D) decides to go back in time (just like Trunks (TL A) did). He gives Goku the cure, splicing the timeline into two: his own (timeline D, same as timeline A, except there was a second Cell at some point) and one where Goku doesn't die (timeline E, same as timeline B, except there's a second Cell). Trunks then returns to his time and recharges the machine.

Event 5) He goes back in time to help fight the androids, but this causes a split in timeline E since he can't change it: timeline F is created, in which he is present to help and the second Cell is around.

Event 6) The Cell Game takes place in timeline F and Trunks then goes back to timeline D, where he kills Cell.

Event 7) After defeating Cell, Trunks goes back to timeline F, splitting it in half one final time into a timeline G. We don't know if Trunks showed up again in the main timeline depicted in the manga. If he did, timeline G is the main timeline of the series. If he didn't, timeline F is.
(yeah, I don't care that much about the movies, sorry... ^^;)

Well, fuck. I think that works. ^^;;

I swear, timeline debating about DBZ can get more confusing than the end of the Evangelion series. Let's just watch the Back to the Future trilogy, have some ice-tea and chips, and take a breather. DBZ's timeline issue is just way too confusing to bring the whole issue to a true fact status.

[Olivier Hague]

Event 7) After defeating Cell, Trunks goes back to timeline F, splitting it in half one final time into a timeline G. We don't know if Trunks showed up again in the main timeline depicted in the manga. If he did, timeline G is the main timeline of the series. If he didn't, timeline F is.
(yeah, I don't care that much about the movies, sorry... ^^;)

OK, about that...
While I'm not exactly fond of the Daizenshû chart/explanation (see above), it does imply that Trunks appeared a third time in the main storyline.

So I guess we end up with:

Event 7) After defeating Cell, Trunks goes back to timeline F, splitting it in half one final time into a timeline G, which is the main storyline, i.e. the one depicted the series.

[Dayspring]

Son of a bitch, I think I understand the daizenshuu's chart now...

Event 1: Trunks goes back in time, splitting Timeline 3 in two (itself and Timeline 4). Gives Goku meds, finds remote, returns, and destroys Androids. NO CELL GAMES, you silly daizenshuu! Movie 7!

Event 2: Cell plays Grand Theft Time Machine. Since he too is from TL3, he can only affect TL4 if he goes further back than Trunks, which he does. Since this is the past of TL4, it splits that timeline into TL4 (which has no Cell) and TL1 (which is the manga). Since Future Trunks is already in TL4 before the split, he will automatically be in both timelines -he simply acts differently in each depending on how Cell's presence impacts upon the timelines.

Event 3: For simplicity's sake, let's call the furthest most year -the year the last time traveler left his era from- "the present," which would be 788 in TL3. Trunks from TL1 goes to the year 785 of TL3. Since this is the past of TL3, and since this Trunks is from a different timeline (Trunks of TL1, not another TL3 traveler), it creates a new timeline as of his arrival (TL2).

Event 4: Trunks returns to TL1 after killing Cell in TL2. Since he was the native Future Trunks of that timeline and since he didn't go back further into the past than Cell or TL3 Trunks, this doesn't alter TL1 at all. It would be like a taking a trip back to his own timeline. Since he's the one who created TL2, going back there doesn't create an alternate TL2 since he's returning to a point after he left (which could also explain why we see time has passed in the manga). This also explains why TL4 didn't get split by TL3 Trunks returning to help fight the androids 3 years later; since he hadn't gone past the moment of his first trip back, it doesn't branch off.

Movie Event: Tapion goes back either 30 years (to help Minosha) or 1,000 years (to stop Hoi in the beginning) into the past. This splits Timeline 1 into itself and Timeline 5.

Filler Event: Goku travels back and meets a young Kamesennin and co, splitting Timeline 3 into itself and Timeline 6.

The events of Movie 9 don't necessarily happen. The point is, something happens when Trunks goes back to TL1, and this is what TOEI suggested as that event, so I included it in my theory last night. Movie 9, despite how you look at it (as the trip Trunks takes after killing Cell or as a filler trip between the destruction of his androids and his Cell), wouldn't create another timeline.

*NOTE: Timelines 5 and 6 aren't in the daizenshuu, obviously.

[Olivier Hague]

Event 2: Cell plays Grand Theft Time Machine. Since he too is from TL3, he can only affect TL4 if he goes further back than Trunks, which he does. Since this is the past of TL4, it splits that timeline into TL4 (which has no Cell) and TL1 (which is the manga).

Er... It's the past of both timelines 3 and 4. Since he got further back in time. You could say that timelines 3 and 4 hadn't branched yet, at that point in time. They were identical.
And again, why would future Trunks appear in the new timeline created by Cell?

Since Future Trunks is already in TL4 before the split, he will automatically be in both timelines

Sure, he appeared in timeline 4, but he didn't in timeline 3. And like I said above, Cell ends up further back in the past, i.e. before timeline 3 even branched into timeline 4. So I don't buy this "he automatically appears" thing...
Like I said in my previous post, if time travel worked that way, and time travellers automatically appeared in all timelines, including the ones that haven't been created/discovered "yet", except for their own timeline (to avoid paradoxes), "time traveller Cell" would also appear in all timelines save for his own. But the Trunks he just killed has to come from a timeline where he fought the Androids along with the other heroes and there was no "time traveller Cell". Paradox.

[Dayspring]

Event 2: Cell plays Grand Theft Time Machine. Since he too is from TL3, he can only affect TL4 if he goes further back than Trunks, which he does. Since this is the past of TL4, it splits that timeline into TL4 (which has no Cell) and TL1 (which is the manga).

Er... It's the past of both timelines 3 and 4. Since he got further back in time. You could say that timelines 3 and 4 hadn't branched yet, at that point in time. They were identical.

Not at all! If that were the case, Trunks going into the past wouldn't have created an alternate timeline. Why should Trunks' actions branch timelines and Cell's not? If Cell were in the past of TL3 as well, then #17 and #18 of TL3 would have been assimilated.

Going back further doesn't mean he enters all timelines, it just means he branches one of the branches. Think of the time travelers as becoming part of the timeline they create. So Trunks arrives in the past, branching TL4 off TL3. When Cell goes back even further into the past, since he's also from TL3, all he does is branch TL4 into TL1. Since Trunks' appearence had already been established in TL4, Cell creating TL1 is kind of like a "Temporal Cloning" of everybody from TL4. Trunks' apperence in TL1 is now merely a pre-established event from TL4 (ie: events of Namek are happening, androids will eventually happen, Trunks will eventually arrive, etc) and NOT an act of TL3 Trunks.

In other words, the Future Trunks in TL4 is actually the Present Trunks of TL3, but because Cell branched TL4 into TL1, the Future Trunks of TL1 is just another character of TL1. That's why it's possible for TL1 Trunks to branch TL3: when he returns to 785 of TL3, he's not from that timeline, so since it's 3 years into the past of TL3, it branches off into TL2. Otherwise Trunks' return, as you point out, causes a paradox.

So for a better diagram than what the daizenshuu has, TL3 should branch at 764 into TL4 and at 785 into TL2, while TL4 branches into TL1 at 763.

[Thanos6]

Olivier:

Well, gee, if he's not powerful enough to absorb the androids he's supposed to absorb, he's a bit of a failure. ^^;

What I meant was, Cell is buried underground hibernating. the Androids go on one of their rampages, and vaporize the area he's in by sheer luck.

Dayspring: That seems to work...can it be? Have the two of us finally found a way to make the damn Daizenshuu work by starting at opposite viewpoints and meeting in the middle?

[Dayspring]

Dayspring: That seems to work...can it be? Have the two of us finally found a way to make the damn Daizenshuu work by starting at opposite viewpoints and meeting in the middle?

Nope. I branched off the daizenshuu's explanation and created my own timeline, er explanation.

Just kidding. I now agree with the 4 timeline theory in full. I also see why Olivier disagrees with us. It's such a horridly drawn diagram that it really can go either way as Cell traveling to all 4 timelines or just to TL1. In fact, the diagram is just explaining which timeline is which, not which is the original or how they were created.

It gets worse: Trunks' bio says he created 3 paradoxical FUTURES as well: one seems to be TL3, one is TL2, and the other is the History of Trunks' timeline. In other words, it seems like the bio claims there is a fifth timeline in which Trunks never returns from any time travel trips. I suppose in this timeline there exists a perfect Cell in 788.

EDIT: They seem to be called "paradoxical futures" instead of "alternate timelines." They list the first as the one where Goku dies so Trunks goes back in time (which is why I said the History of Trunks), the second is TL3 as Cell described it (Trunks finds a way to destroy the androids. "But Goku is still dead and Trunks, not knowing about Cell, is killed by him. Cell travels back, bla."), and the third is the timeline Trunks returns to when he destroys his androids and Cell easily. Then it talks about the manga's timeline. Still 4 total, but not the 4 in the diagram.

[Anonymous Friend]

Let me just ask everyone here a question: Would you prefer that Mr. Toriyama used the convention time travel scenario that most other writers use? The one where timetravelers affect thier history.

[Dayspring]

Let me just ask everyone here a question: Would you prefer that Mr. Toriyama used the convention time travel scenario that most other writers use? The one where timetravelers affect thier history.

Why? Then it's always about paradoxes. I very much like the idea of alternate timelines, it's just it wasn't explained in a reader-friendly way.

[Kaboom]

But Paradoxes are fun.

[Olivier Hague]

What I meant was, Cell is buried underground hibernating. the Androids go on one of their rampages, and vaporize the area he's in by sheer luck.

But he wakes up really shortly after the Androids first appear, in the timeline we know. So one could assume it would be the same here.
Heck, the fact the main characters were warned about the Androids may even have sped up the appearance of #17 and #18, in the main timeline.

[Thanos6]

Let me just ask everyone here a question: Would you prefer that Mr. Toriyama used the convention time travel scenario that most other writers use? The one where timetravelers affect thier history.

Why? Then it's always about paradoxes. I very much like the idea of alternate timelines, it's just it wasn't explained in a reader-friendly way.

Agreed. That's one of the reasons I love, say, Marvel. Their hundreds and hundreds of alternate universes.

[Dayspring]

Let me just ask everyone here a question: Would you prefer that Mr. Toriyama used the convention time travel scenario that most other writers use? The one where timetravelers affect thier history.

Why? Then it's always about paradoxes. I very much like the idea of alternate timelines, it's just it wasn't explained in a reader-friendly way.

Agreed. That's one of the reasons I love, say, Marvel. Their hundreds and hundreds of alternate universes.

Original Age of Apocalypse, FTW!

Back on topic, for the longest time I used to interpret the daizenshuu's diagram as just that: there are 4 alternate universes, and you can change the past of the other ones by using a time machine. You can't change your own universe's time since that would lead to a paradox. I used to think the only differences were all very minor. For example, strength and persona differences in the characters would vary, but the pivotal events all remained the same unless interfered with by a time traveler. ex: Goku returns to Earth and defeats Freeza in TL2. He would have been 3 hours late in TL1, but to compensate for this random change, he was going to teleport had he not sensed Trunks. Another example would be the destruction of the androids in TL3: in 785, Trunks destroys the androids using the remote. In TL2, Trunks destroys them himself. Pivotal event = the same (androids destroyed in 785).

[Xyex]

Let me just ask everyone here a question: Would you prefer that Mr. Toriyama used the convention time travel scenario that most other writers use? The one where timetravelers affect thier history.

Why? Then it's always about paradoxes. I very much like the idea of alternate timelines, it's just it wasn't explained in a reader-friendly way.

Not always. There have been a few cases where the time traveller effects their own time but doesn't cause a paradox since any changes they make to history can't effect them in the past. Therefor, even if they remove the reason they went back, or even stop themselves from existing, they're still there to effect the changes.

[Dayspring]

Let me just ask everyone here a question: Would you prefer that Mr. Toriyama used the convention time travel scenario that most other writers use? The one where timetravelers affect thier history.

Why? Then it's always about paradoxes. I very much like the idea of alternate timelines, it's just it wasn't explained in a reader-friendly way.

Not always. There have been a few cases where the time traveller effects their own time but doesn't cause a paradox since any changes they make to history can't effect them in the past. Therefor, even if they remove the reason they went back, or even stop themselves from existing, they're still there to effect the changes.

But that ends up being the point of the fanboy discussion: "the zomg! That can't happen since it makes a paradox!" Terminator, for example. Dragonball offered something fairly unique.

EDIT: Speaking of the Terminator series, the Sarah Connor Chronicles tv show (by FOX) will retcon T3 out of existence! Yaaaaaay!

[The Tori-bot]

EDIT: Speaking of the Terminator series, the Sarah Connor Chronicles tv show (by FOX) will retcon T3 out of existence! Yaaaaaay!

TSCC Takes place in-between T2 and T3.

Anyway, back on topic... Tapion is cool.

[Dayspring]

EDIT: Speaking of the Terminator series, the Sarah Connor Chronicles tv show (by FOX) will retcon T3 out of existence! Yaaaaaay!

TSCC Takes place in-between T2 and T3.

Anyway, back on topic... Tapion is cool.

TSCC as a movie was supposed to be midquel, but to keep the series running, they added the FBI to chase after them for what they did in T2, and Summer Glau's character is a Terminator sent back to help protect+train John Connor. These events didn't happen in T3's continuity and, depending how future seasons pan out, T3 itself may not occur, so it's a retcon.

And Tapion is cool, but Trunks is the cooler sword-wielding time traveler.