Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

So Base Black = Base Goku + Zamasu?

Base Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku so it'd mean that Zamasu is around SSJ3 level strenght?

It could work I suppose, it's odd that he had slight trouble with Kibito but at the same time they did say he was stronger than any of the Supreme Kai's.

It'd make Zamasu around as strong as Trunks which would work with the theory I have that Trunks will be the one to fight Zamasu while the much stronger Goku and Vegeta fight the much stronger Black.

[TheMikado]

So Base Black = Base Goku + Zamasu?

Base Black is stronger than SSJ3 Goku so it'd mean that Zamasu is around SSJ3 level strenght?

It could work I suppose, it's odd that he had slight trouble with Kibito but at the same time they did say he was stronger than any of the Supreme Kai's.

It'd make Zamasu around as strong as Trunks which would work with the theory I have that Trunks will be the one to fight Zamasu while the much stronger Goku and Vegeta fight the much stronger Black.

Yeah that's exactly what I'm expecting as well. With Super Trunks rage boost possible beating out Zamasu but Zamasu having immortality. Also a thought would be that the SSJ multiplier wouldn't effect Zamasus power boost to black, meaning only the Goku part of his power gets the SSJ boost while Zamasus power contribution to Black remains static and addictive. I suppose that could work but, if that turned out to be an actual explanation it would mean Toyotaro is far more of a fanboy in terms of consistency and universe theory then any of us.

Also another prediction, Trunks will be the one to finish Zamasu but he will use a technique he learned from Kaioshin which may be the spirit bomb sword. It would actually make sense that Kaioshin knows a similar technique that would be more powerful than king Kais and it would also make sense that he would teach Trunks this as part of his personal training. It being sword based would also make way more sense as Kaioshin seems to think highly of swords lol

[Bullza]

If turning Super Saiyan was only increasing the Goku part of Black then wouldn't that make Super Saiyan Black like a 1/10th stronger than Base Black?

I don't know actually this might all be too far-fetched, it's hard to imagine that Toyotaro would come to this really complex thought process on why Black was so strong and then expect kids and teenagers to be able to come to this conclusion without really explaining it.

It's probably just as simple as Black is so strong because Zamasu took Goku's body from an u known amount of years in the future. Plus he has been getting stronger since he took his body according to Trunks though they haven't explained why yet.

[Doctor.]

Not true see Toriyamas notes. SSJ is the equivalent of SSJ for Black.

Toriyama's notes are irrelevant when we're talking about the anime where SSJ Black wasn't even introduced. That may as well have been Toriyama's intentions, but Toei clearly went in a different direction. The characters repeatedly state that SSR is Black's equivalent of SSJ, so that's the only information in regards to the anime that we have for the form. Saying otherwise is just introducing headcanon into the mix.

[Marlowe89]

Toriyama's notes are irrelevant when we're talking about the anime where SSJ Black wasn't even introduced. That may as well have been Toriyama's intentions, but Toei clearly went in a different direction. The characters repeatedly state that SSR is Black's equivalent of SSJ, so that's the only information in regards to the anime that we have for the form. Saying otherwise is just introducing headcanon into the mix.

You're being a little too presumptuous here. As far as I can recall, Super Saiyan Rosé was only called Black's version of Super Saiyan once in a magazine scan, and even then the term "version" can mean numerous things considering that we already had an alternate, stronger version of Super Saiyan prior to its reveal.

Toei didn't "clearly" go in a different direction; for all we know, their continuity remains true to Toriyama's notes, there's a plain yellow Super Saiyan somewhere within Black's repertoire and they simply never had a plot-related reason to show it off in the anime. We can certainly speculate, but let's not jump to conclusions without a definitive answer.

[Lord Beerus]

Just to quickly address this point made in another thread:

Zamasu did not crush Vegetto with one blow. Vegetto defused and then Merged Zamasu smacked Goku and Vegeta to the floor. The best Merged Zamasu did to SSJB Vegetto was catch him with an uppercut. Then after that Vegetto resumed to kick Merged Zamasu's ass. I'm not making any of previous points because I want to keep Beerus as the strongest, as I already know that's the case. You bring up stuff like Vegetto getting crushed with one blow and Zamasu' power being limitless when neither scenario are the case anywhere in the story. So, no offence, but if anything, it seems as though you have a problem with the idea that somebody other than Zeno is stronger than Merged Zamasu. It's not a fact that Zamasu is stronger than Vegetto, because if that were the case Zamasu wouldn't have been getting his ass kicked they way he did in their fight.

Also, having a transformation and immortality are two widely different attributes. Having a transformation doesn't automatically make you invincible or incapable of dying. So when I say that Zamasu is vulnerable without his immortality, the context of that scenario is so much different to saying that Goku is nothing without Super Saiyan Blue. Having an ability taken away from you that prevents you from dying and having a transformation taken away are widely different things. I also don't know where you're getting this idea that Vegeta knows Vegetto's powers but... whatever.

Sorry for going off-topic.

[Hugo Boss]

If turning Super Saiyan was only increasing the Goku part of Black then wouldn't that make Super Saiyan Black like a 1/10th stronger than Base Black?

I don't know actually this might all be too far-fetched, it's hard to imagine that Toyotaro would come to this really complex thought process on why Black was so strong and then expect kids and teenagers to be able to come to this conclusion without really explaining it.

It's probably just as simple as Black is so strong because Zamasu took Goku's body from an u known amount of years in the future. Plus he has been getting stronger since he took his body according to Trunks though they haven't explained why yet.

I don't think it's too complex for kids. Actually, Black going SS2 did little to no difference in comparison to his normal form. And the part in which he looks older than Goku can imply he isn't simply Base Goku + Zamasu, but he could have started from that point. And since Black says he has been fighting Trunks a lot, he could have used those times to improve faster. I recall he appeared as soon as Trunks got SS2 so their levels could be close when they first meet each other.

[Doctor.]

Toriyama's notes are irrelevant when we're talking about the anime where SSJ Black wasn't even introduced. That may as well have been Toriyama's intentions, but Toei clearly went in a different direction. The characters repeatedly state that SSR is Black's equivalent of SSJ, so that's the only information in regards to the anime that we have for the form. Saying otherwise is just introducing headcanon into the mix.

You're being a little too presumptuous here. As far as I can recall, Super Saiyan Rosé was only called Black's version of Super Saiyan once in a magazine scan, and even then the term "version" can mean numerous things considering that we already had an alternate, stronger version of Super Saiyan prior to its reveal.

Toei didn't "clearly" go in a different direction; for all we know, their continuity remains true to Toriyama's notes, there's a plain yellow Super Saiyan somewhere within Black's repertoire and they simply never had a plot-related reason to show it off in the anime. We can certainly speculate, but let's not jump to conclusions without a definitive answer.

Pretty sure both Goku and Vegeta called SSR Black's version of SSJ. That's about as clear-cut as you can get. It's not hard to think that there's a difference between the anime and Toriyama's notes.

[Merged Zamasu]

Just to quickly address this point made in another thread:

Zamasu did not crush Vegetto with one blow. Vegetto defused and then Merged Zamasu smacked Goku and Vegeta to the floor. The best Merged Zamasu did to SSJB Vegetto was catch him with an uppercut. Then after that Vegetto resumed to kick Merged Zamasu's ass. I'm not making any of previous points because I want to keep Beerus as the strongest, as I already know that's the case. You bring up stuff like Vegetto getting crushed with one blow and Zamasu' power being limitless when neither scenario are the case anywhere in the story. So, no offence, but if anything, it seems as though you have a problem with the idea that somebody other than Zeno is stronger than Merged Zamasu. It's not a fact that Zamasu is stronger than Vegetto, because if that were the case Zamasu wouldn't have been getting his ass kicked they way he did in their fight.

Also, having a transformation and immortality are two widely different attribute. Having a transformation does' automatically make you invincible or incapable of dying. So when I say that Zamasu is vulnerable without his immortality, the context of that scenario is so much different to saying that Goku is nothing without Super Saiyan Blue. Having an ability taken away from you that prevents you from dying and having a transformation taken away are widely different things. I also don't know where you're getting this idea that Vegeta knows Vegetto's powers but... whatever.

Sorry for going off-topic.

Merged Zamasu includes Bodiless Zamasu which appeared in Episode 67. How can you tell me Vegito is stronger than Bodiless Zamasu? At the end of the Arc, Zamasu overwhelmed Vegeta, Trunks and Goku without putting any effort into it. Sure, Vegito might have had the upper hand against Zamasu when he was still a flawed being, but once he ascended and became one with the Universe, even Vegito would have lost, because there was no way he would have dealt any serious damage to Zamasu at that point. And why you keep ignoring Gowasu's statement? He stated that "Zamasu's power expanded to no end". Why do you think that was not the case? Gowasu knows what his Apprentice is capable of and when he said Zamasu had become a being beyond his comprehension, then he is most likely right. And you saw Zamasu's power had no end. Once he got rid of his flawed body, nothing could stand against him. The only reason Zamasu couldn't crush Vegito in an instant is because Black wished for Goku's body instead of immortality, thus making Merged Zamasu flawed and unstable. As Gowasu suggested ("The balance between Zamasu's immortal soul and mortal body is becoming unstable, our chances may lie there"), Vegito simply exploited Merged Zamasu's only weakness. Had he been completely immortal, then even Vegito would have been defeated. Sure, Zamasu, without immortality, would have been dealt with pretty quickly, but that's beside the point. Perhaps you didn't put much attention to the ending (and i understand, Episode 66's writing was abysmal and ruined the Arc a little for me too), but Zamasu, in Episode 67, ceased to be just a God and became one with the Universe. Simply put, Zamasu WAS the Universe, and it's fitting that only the King of the Universe could destroy him for good. Even your "oh so mighty" Beerus was scared when he realized what Zamasu had done to the Future Multiverse. You could see in his very eyes he feared what Zamasu had become, and he was right. Only a being of endless power can affect two different Multiverses at the same time. Also, it's very unlikely Vegeta never asked himself what Vegito is capable of and what his powers are when joined with Goku's.

I am biased, yes. I just don't like when people say things like "Vegito would rekt Zamasu lel, he is sooo much stronger than him" or "Shut up zamasu, trunks destroyed you!!!!". Trunks didn't destroy shit, it was Zamasu that willingly gave up his flawed body to ascend and become one with the Universe.

[Doctor.]

Beerus never once showcased any fear towards Zamasu. He always treated him as a joke and shows slight worry in #67, that's it.

And Zamasu didn't willingly give up his physical body, he got beat. What happened after that I doubt even him could have predicted.

[Merged Zamasu]

Beerus never once showcased any fear towards Zamasu. He always treated him as a joke and shows slight worry in #67, that's it.

And Zamasu didn't willingly give up his physical body, he got beat. What happened after that I doubt even him could have predicted.

It's up to interpretation. Beerus looked very worried to me, even Whis realized Zamasu's power had grown at an alarming rate.

Also, Zamasu did willingly give up his physical form. That's obvious for two reasons:

1) Gowasu stated "He's cast off his form as a God and is trying to become justice and order itself" (To "Cast off someting" means to "Give up something");

2) Zamasu's body was not disintegrated when Trunks sliced him in half, but when Zamasu had stopped talking, implying that Zamasu had control over his body's state, and chose to self-destruct himself so that he could unleash his true potential.

It's impossible Zamasu's body would disintegrate just because Trunks sliced him in half, because Future Zamasu was still immortal and thus half of Merged Zamasu should have been able to endure anyway, no matter what Vegito or Trunks threw at it.

[Doctor.]

1) Gowasu stated "He's cast off his form as a God and is trying to become justice and order itself" (To "Cast off someting" means to "Give up something");

Yes and he did this AFTER Trunks sliced him in half and he realized he couldn't win.

2) Zamasu's body was not disintegrated when Trunks sliced him in half, but when Zamasu had stopped talking, implying that Zamasu had control over his body, and chose to self-destruct himself so that he could unleash his true potential.

I don't see how this makes Zamasu's power look good. You're admitting that Zamasu was beaten by Trunks.

[Merged Zamasu]

1) Gowasu stated "He's cast off his form as a God and is trying to become justice and order itself" (To "Cast off someting" means to "Give up something");

Yes and he did this AFTER Trunks sliced him in half and he realized he couldn't win.

2) Zamasu's body was not disintegrated when Trunks sliced him in half, but when Zamasu had stopped talking, implying that Zamasu had control over his body, and chose to self-destruct himself so that he could unleash his true potential.

I don't see how this makes Zamasu's power look good. You're admitting that Zamasu was beaten by Trunks.

Point is, Trunks didn't destroy Zamasu's physical form, it was Zamasu that did that to himself, like Vegeta did and like Trunks attempted to do. Trunks only sliced him in half, nothing more. In the grand scheme of things, Zamasu still won. He had the last laugh, as Trunks is now forced to carry with him the horrible burden that he failed to protect his homeland, made even worse by the fact he might meet his mother and friends again, but those he really cared about are now erased from existence alongside Zamasu. Like a true God, Zamasu died on his own terms, bringing down the whole Multiverse with him.

[Doctor.]

Point is, Trunks didn't destroy Zamasu's physical form, it was Zamasu that did that to himself, like Vegeta did and like Trunks attempted to do. Trunks only sliced him in half, nothing more. In the grand scheme of things, Zamasu still won. He had the last laugh, as Trunks is now forced to carry with him the horrible burden that he failed to protect his homeland, made even worse by the fact he might meet his mother and friends again, but those he really cared about are now erased from existence alongside Zamasu. Like a true God, Zamasu died on his own terms, bringing down the whole Multiverse with him.

He didn't exactly win. He died. His "utopia" no longer exists. His entire existence and everything he has fought for has been deleted.

[Marlowe89]

Pretty sure both Goku and Vegeta called SSR Black's version of SSJ. That's about as clear-cut as you can get.

Not only is that not clear-cut at all (for reasons I've already laid out) but you've yet to provide me with a specific source or time stamp of when that was said in the dialogue.

It's not hard to think that there's a difference between the anime and Toriyama's notes.

You're twisting the argument here. The point is that you're concluding there was a confirmed difference when there really wasn't anything said about SSR either way other than it being some version of Super Saiyan which is exactly what Blue already is.

[TheMikado]

Not true see Toriyamas notes. SSJ is the equivalent of SSJ for Black.

Toriyama's notes are irrelevant when we're talking about the anime where SSJ Black wasn't even introduced. That may as well have been Toriyama's intentions, but Toei clearly went in a different direction. The characters repeatedly state that SSR is Black's equivalent of SSJ, so that's the only information in regards to the anime that we have for the form. Saying otherwise is just introducing headcanon into the mix.

No it doesn't, what you're saying is Toei > (Trumps) > Toriyama. Where does he state that SSR is the equivalent to SSJ and not SSB?

[Doctor.]

Not only is that not clear-cut at all (for reasons I've already laid out) but you've yet to provide me with a specific source or time stamp of when that was said in the dialogue.

Here you go.

Goku says it in #58.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Then Vegeta puts it even more clearly in #62.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

You're twisting the argument here. The point is that you're concluding there was a confirmed difference when there really wasn't anything said about it either way.

I'm not twisting anything. We've been presented with three different things.

a) Toriyama's notes, in which Black can turn Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Rosé, and both forms are clearly differentiated.
b) Toyotaro's manga, in which Black can turn Super Saiyan and will presumably turn Super Saiyan Rosé next chapter.
c) Toei's anime, in which Black has only turned Super Saiyan Rosé and the characters, as well as one piece of promotional material, treat it as his Super Saiyan form.

I'm making the most logical and reasonable assumption based on the information that we have at hand that Black doesn't have the golden Super Saiyan in the anime and that SSR is his equivalent.

No it doesn't, what you're saying is Toei > (Trumps) > Toriyama. Where does he state that SSR is the equivalent to SSJ and not SSB?

Yes, Toei does trump Toriyama when it comes to the anime product, as their writers alter Toriyama's script and notes to fit the mold of the episodes. When discussing the anime, Toriyama's notes should be immediately discarded if they directly contradict what's presented to us in the anime.

[TheMikado]

^ and you're ok with that?

[Marlowe89]

Here you go.

Goku says it in #58.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Then Vegeta puts it even more clearly in #62.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

"A" Super Saiyan. That actually solidifies my point even more - Super Saiyan Blue was identified simply as a Super Saiyan at several points, and even Toriyama referred to SSR as "a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color" in his notes. Not all forms are always specifically referred to by their full names. Also, the point about Blue being a version of Super Saiyan still stands.

So no, that doesn't prove anything at all, really. Nobody ever calls it an "equivalent" of anything, either.

I'm making the most logical and reasonable assumption based on the information that we have at hand that Black doesn't have the golden Super Saiyan in the anime and that SSR is his equivalent.

It's more like you're taking information we have that isn't clear-cut, making one very specific interpretation of that information, and then jumping to the completely unverified conclusion that it would have been impossible for Black to use the yellow Super Saiyan form in the anime.

[Doctor.]

"A" Super Saiyan. That actually solidifies my point even more - Super Saiyan Blue was identified as a Super Saiyan at several points, and even Toriyama referred to SSR as "a Super Saiyan of a slightly different color" in his notes.

That doesn't prove anything at all, really. Nobody ever calls it an "equivalent" of anything, either.

Goku's statement could be interpreted as such, but Vegeta's equating SSR to Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Blue has always been identified as (a progression of) Super Saiyan God more than a Super Saiyan. If Vegeta wanted to equate SSR to SSB, he'd say "Black can turn into a Super Saiyan God".

My argument was that Black's SSR isn't the equivalent of SSB, that was the post I responded to originally.

It's more like you're taking information we have that isn't clear-cut, making one very specific interpretation of that information, and then jumping to the completely unverified conclusion that it would have been impossible for Black to use the yellow Super Saiyan form in the anime.

I mean, saying that Black can't use Super Saiyan in the anime is about the same level of assumption as saying that Goku can't use Super Saiyan God. You can't confirm it, but it's a pretty safe assumption to make. Nobody ever makes any mention of Black using the golden Super Saiyan, Black never transforms, Trunks never says anything about Black transforming, Black never mentioned he had the ability to transform before fighting Vegeta in the future, it's even implied he couldn't transform when he fought Goku for the first time and only through his battle with Goku did he learn how to do so. I mean, he even says, "I've taken Super Saiyan Son Goku's power and made it into my own" or something, this is way before he ever fought any SSB. Then you get to the power issue, how is SSR so weak if it's supposed to be Blue's equivalent when base Black was so strong? Well, the only explanation is that the boost was small and, as such, being an equivalent to Super Saiyan makes sense.

Like I said, I'm only making the reasonable and logical assumption based on the information we have at hand.

^ and you're ok with that?

Okay with what?